Tempers have cooled I think. NWN 2 DM Client

[LoneWolf16]

Just to repeat myself...again...

 

One last time.

 

The current release plan does not make those who want the DM client wait any longer than they would if the game were released with it. How is there any way to argue against that? It's just...fact.

 

Some of you don't seem to understand.

 

 

The game is complete if the devs say it is. The game will be released without a DM client. A DM client will come, for free (Mark my god damn words), and all will be well. This is needless complaining for the sake of complaining. Furthermore, it's an insult to the basic principles of logic and not-so-common sense. I'm aware that this is an internet forum, but please, try to wrap your minds around the concept. It's for your own good.

 

Edit: I just realized I'm a jerk.

Edited May 14, 2006 by LoneWolf16

[Atreides]

It's "free", though in reality we'd need to factor in the download/upload costs. Whether it's Atari/Obs with their servers or the consumers downloading it.

 

That's a minor detail though. No biggie.

[LoneWolf16]

They won't charge for it.

[Volourn]

If it's in patch, it's not part of the game I paid for hence it doesn't come when the game is released. Period.

 

It needs to be on the beautiful disks not on some silly net.

 

 

"The game is complete if the devs say it is."

 

So, if they were to say the game would be shipped with just the toolset, it's a complete game?

 

R00fles!

 

Unless the DMC is part of the game on the actual disk where I can access it with no patch it's not part of the game. It's been labeled as 'bonus content' and NOT 'part of the release'.

 

Game over.

[Atreides]

They won't charge for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant the internet connection costs. Whether it costs something (I pay by the MB dl'd) or the trouble someone without an internet connection goes through obtaining the patch.

[LoneWolf16]

If it's in patch, it's not part of the game I paid for hence it doesn't come when the game is released. Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's silly. Basically what you're saying is that you're not paying for the DM, and yet, you're complaining about that! Exclamation point.

"The game is complete if the devs say it is."

 

So, if they were to say the game would be shipped with just the toolset, it's a complete game?

 

R00fles!

 

Unless the DMC is part of the game on the actual disk where I can access it with no patch it's not part of the game. It's been labeled as 'bonus content' and NOT 'part of the release'.

 

Game over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. The game would be a toolset. But, since we're not at a ridiculous extreme with this, saying something like that is beyond merely silly; It's ultra mega hyper silly.

 

And I'm not sure I get the point of that second part. You're saying, again, that you're getting the DM client for free, when it should be part of the game, where you'd be paying for it?

 

Oh, and my main point still remains. You'd get the DM in the same amount of time, regardless of whether NWN 2 ships sooner or later.

 

I meant the internet connection costs.  Whether it costs something (I pay by the MB dl'd) or the trouble someone without an internet connection goes through obtaining the patch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, just making a point.

 

I didn't know they had systems like that.

 

And why, in this day and age, would somebody who plays PC games not have some sort of internet?

Edited May 14, 2006 by LoneWolf16

[Volourn]

"That's silly. Basically what you're saying is that you're not paying for the DM, and yet, you're complaining about that! Exclamation point."

 

Because I want to own.

 

What happens if I lose the interent, and my computer crashes/breaks (cause a part going byebye which happens) and I have to reinstall; but I want to use the DMC to work on a module while I get my internet back up? Guess what? I can't. Why? 'cause I need the patch the DMC isn't on the disc!!!

 

I wnat it on the disc. Once I pay that $50, I don't want to be at the emrcy of the internet for something that was supposedly a 'part of the game', and Obsidian claimed was going to be part of the game; but apparantly it isn't...

 

Or might not be; but for all we know they might get it done by September and it'll be on the disc.

 

So nobody knows what's up; not even them!

 

R00fles!!!

[alanschu]

10-30% make use, in some way, of the MP/toolset/DM stuff and since the DMC is used the elast I gave it a modest 15% total...

 

Based on what exactly?

[LoneWolf16]

They won't charge for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant the internet connection costs. Whether it costs something (I pay by the MB dl'd) or the trouble someone without an internet connection goes through obtaining the patch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come to think of it...why would somebody who doesn't have the internet care about a DM client? They won't be using it.

 

"That's silly. Basically what you're saying is that you're not paying for the DM, and yet, you're complaining about that! Exclamation point."

 

Because I want to own.

 

What happens if I lose the interent, and my computer crashes/breaks (cause a part going byebye which happens) and I have to reinstall; but I want to use the DMC to work on a module while I get my internet back up? Guess what? I can't. Why? 'cause I need the patch the DMC isn't on the disc!!!

 

I wnat it on the disc. Once I pay that $50, I don't want to be at the emrcy of the internet for something that was supposedly a 'part of the game', and Obsidian claimed was going to be part of the game; but apparantly it isn't...

 

Or might not be; but for all we know they might get it done by September and it'll be on the disc.

 

So nobody knows what's up; not even them!

 

R00fles!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Three letters can best describe you and the given circumstances. S-O-L.

[alanschu]

Come to think of it...why would somebody who doesn't have the internet care about a DM client? They won't be using it.

 

Haha, excellent point.

[Lare Kikkeli]

10-30% make use, in some way, of the MP/toolset/DM stuff and since the DMC is used the elast I gave it a modest 15% total...

 

Based on what exactly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Intuition.

 

What about people with no computers? Obs should make a boardgame version of NWN for them. And what about people who don't have arms? Obsidian should make NWN2 support voice commands!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can't please everyone....

[Volourn]

"Based on what exactly?"

 

BIO's estimations...

 

 

"Three letters can best describe you and the given circumstances. S-O-L"

 

Yup.

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

I don't suppose you have anything that can confirm the Bioware estimations?

[Volourn]

The BIO boards. I'm not gonna do a search for you. This should be common knowledge after 4 years I would think. Do a search here: www.bioware.com. There's your link.

 

The estimates now range depending on the teller... those in favor of MP claim high, and people trying to prove a point about SP's popularity like Grom claim 10% of those MP.

 

Remember, the 30% high is MP exlsuive so that's why I'm willing to go with 15% of those who use/take advantage of the DMC in some way. Even if you go with a low estimate of 5% for the DMC itself... that's still higher than those who use gnomes/halflings through playing the SP OC ionce then thropwing the game in the trash.

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

Assuming that they didn't sell more than than a million units, that would put the DM Client usage to 100,000-300,000 range.

 

Don't suppose you'd know what appropriate search criteria I should search for?

[alanschu]

Remember, the 30% high is MP exlsuive so that's why I'm willing to go with 15% of those who use/take advantage of the DMC in some way. Even if you go with a low estimate of 5% for the DMC itself... that's still higher than those who use gnomes/halflings through playing the SP OC ionce then thropwing the game in the trash.

 

Fortunately it's easy to add a gnome/halfling.

 

Not to mention the fact that the game already has support for them built in as NPCs are gnomes and halflings.

[Volourn]

"Don't suppose you'd know what appropriate search criteria I should search for?"

 

I would wager MP vs. SP type searches.. there were a lot of debate on that espicially around HOTU with the hubaloo. Search various BIO posts starting with Dave Gaider.

 

 

"Assuming that they didn't sell more than than a million units, that would put the DM Client usage to 100,000-300,000 range."

 

2 mil + at least.

 

However, even at that clip of 100 to 300 thousand peeps, most of them are not likely gonna be the hardcore 'no DMC no sell' types either.

 

I'd figure the @ is probably 1% which is why Obsidian *can* get away with dropping the DMC. But, then again, my argument has never been that without the DMC, NWN2 would not sell. Of course, it's gonna sell. It would likely sell 1 million + copies with half the races, half the classes, no evil method, no toolset, no MP, and no DMC. That doesn't really prove much.

 

 

"Fortunately it's easy to add a gnome/halfling."

 

Add a gnome or halfling with anmodel and its base stats, yes. But, you gotta include various dialogue checks at times, you gotta makes sure the weapons, armour, and other stuff work with them without clipping, and with the new sizing rules, there's that for Obsidian to take into account. Not so easy then. Still, likely, easier than the DMC. Then again, the DMC, is just a fancier version of the Player Client and throw in some toolset toolset (more complicated then I make it sound lol)

 

 

"Not to mention the fact that the game already has support for them built in as NPCs are gnomes and halflings."

 

As the DMC already exists.. They're changing and updating it though... soemthing they likely should have done from the start.. insatead of not touching it all for most of the dev process (from the sounds of it anyways)... That's my biggest beef...

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

Add a gnome or halfling with anmodel and its base stats, yes. But, you gotta include various dialogue checks at times, you gotta makes sure the weapons, armour, and other stuff work with them without clipping, and with the new sizing rules, there's that for Obsidian to take into account. Not so easy then.

 

So much of this is taken into account with NPCs though. Since Gnomes and Halflings already exist in the game, it's a zero cost for making them work with armors and weapons for PCs, given they already work with NPCs.

 

If gnomes and halfings flat out didn't exist in their game, then it would mean a bit more.

 

As for dialogue checks and whatnot, based on my previous experiences with RPGs I would be very surprised if the amount of work done on these goes beyond the usual fluff. In other words, the work requirement is minimal.

 

Taking a look around this thread at Bioware, it seems like one of the many uses of the DM Client is to do on the fly testing of modules. But, this post by Patrick Mills is that these bug testing features will not require the DM Client and can still be done.

 

 

As the DMC already exists.. They're changing and updating it though... soemthing they likely should have done from the start.. insatead of not touching it all for most of the dev process (from the sounds of it anyways)... That's my biggest beef...

 

Initially it wasn't expected to be changed. Later, (I suspect after engine rewrites and whatnot), it apparently has. We don't even know that it hasn't been touched...just that it won't be finished. I'm sure other details were considered higher priority during development at various points in time.

 

A DM Client exists, but not one that works with NWN2.

Edited May 14, 2006 by alanschu

[Volourn]

"Initially it wasn't expected to be changed. Later, (I suspect after engine rewrites and whatnot), it apparently has. We don't even know that it hasn't been touched...just that it won't be finished. I'm sure other details were considered higher priority during development at various points in time."

 

Yeah, this is likely all true. It just gets me because they had said the DMC would be as it was in NWN2 so they felt there was *no need* for it touched as it was acceptable and they could concentrate on other stuff that *needed* updates/upgrades.. ie.. graphics, 3.5 rules, the brand new OC (where they'll get most of their $)... and, now, 4 months before the scheduled release it's "Oops! The DMC isn't done yet... we're working on it!

 

I want two things to happen so I cna get the MC on disk which is all I ask:

 

1. They manage to comeplete any work they need to on it in time.

 

Failing that....

 

2. They do what NWN did, and have expansions and then have a 'mega release' of official game +2 expansions + patch in one.

 

That way would be cool as I would have the DMC on CD (or DVD if I decide to switch over by then)...

 

 

"A DM Client exists, but not one that works with NWN2."

 

Yeah... they shoulda figured that out well before 4 months pre release, I would think...

[alanschu]

Yeah... they shoulda figured that out well before 4 months pre release, I would think...

 

Who's saying they didn't?

 

It's presumptuous to assume that because we are only now seeing a comment about it, that they just now recognized that it had to be changed.

 

They just realized that, as of now, it's not likely to be included in the release.

[Volourn]

Ok. 4 months. Half a year. Pick a number. But, it's obvious they weren't really paying attention to potential problems with the DMC 'til recent.

 

Afterall, throughout the development we were told quite explicitely the DMC would be the same as the NWN1 DMC, and there would be no work done on it 'cause it was fine as it is.... That's what leads to the conclusion that this 'oopsy' occured recently' - not neccessarily the day it was announced; but definitely not for that long. There's also the fact that mr. U stated and his posts in the alst few days they'r ein the process NOW in determining on how to deal with the issue... If they had known about this since the beginning they'd likely would have had a gameplan in palce...

 

I have my conspiracy theories bought that's all they are so they don't count and remain secret. :D

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

Ok. 4 months. Half a year. Pick a number. But, it's obvious they weren't really paying attention to potential problems with the DMC 'til recent.

 

I think that all it really says is that they didn't come to the realization that it really won't be done at release.

 

Afterall, throughout the development we were told quite explicitely the DMC would be the same as the NWN1 DMC, and there would be no work done on it 'cause it was fine as it is

 

I thought that this was more mentioned at the beginning stages of the development, and never really mentioned again outside of people adding it to their FAQs and whatnot.

 

 

EDIT: No luck with the search yet. The only thing I can find is MP vs SP, which doesn't necessarily mean the DM Client is being used (as I played MP without using the DM client). I suppose I can just ask someone, though they may not answer me or want me to comment on it (for whatever reason), so the hunt continues.

Edited May 14, 2006 by alanschu

[Volourn]

Well, like everything, it come sup from time to time.. repeatedly.. I'm sure it was replied to at least a couple of times (like everything else that needs repeating, lol)...

 

 

"as I played MP without using the DM client"

 

Well.. like I said, the estimate is 10%-30% for MP. I don't believe BIO ever gave even a semi official estimate for the DMC itself. They really can't since there's no way to track someone using it...

 

That's why i went with my 15% figure as well; because as you emntioned playing Mp doesn't instantly mean DMC either.. though, many modules are built with the DMC as an aid..

 

Plus, anyone playing PWs has atken advantage of that even if they, themselves, haven't played DM... and, that's a lot of people..

 

And, of course, there's NW Connections...

 

No, majority, not by a long shot, but definitely not a meaningness number as BIo themselevs have pointed out... Why do you think BIO does stuff for PWs even though they don't 'officially' support them? Because, while relatively a small group, they're not completely irrelevant...

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

That's why i went with my 15% figure as well; because as you emntioned playing Mp doesn't instantly mean DMC either.. though, many modules are built with the DMC as an aid..

 

On the plus side, it sounds like the aid the DM Client provided for NWN1 will still be usable for NWN2 (even without the DM Client), if I read that Patrick comment correctly.

[Hassat Hunter]

The game is complete if the devs say it is.

 

OE said Kotor2 was complete "

 

They won't charge for it.

 

They might not even release it. "

 

And I'm not sure I get the point of that second part. You're saying, again, that you're getting the DM client for free, when it should be part of the game, where you'd be paying for it?

 

Haha, you make it sound like the DM inside the package would cost the consumer more cash, while the DL would cost them nothing. But ofcourse it is both free... one just screw the costumer by forcing them a large DL that is now just an empty space on the disk that could be filled and thus save them that inconvenience of buying an (here the main issue comes) INCOMPLETE GAME and then completing it later by (not even certain to come) fixes...

 

Let's make another comparisson. With UT2K4. What if you get that game then see major seller point gamemode ONSLAUGHT was not included and had to be DL-ed like say, 20 days after release. How would you feel?

Edited May 14, 2006 by Hassat Hunter