The Broken Hourglass

[Wistrik]

I don't know about ToEE, though if they're up to date they would probably be using WeiDU because it makes mod installation and uninstallation a breeze so long as you pay attention to the order in which you installed your mods. (Most people have more than one mod installed so order is important.)

 

I doubt Wes will ever be as experienced as I am, since I have nearly 20 years' head start on him. However, he probably doesn't have the migraines and depression that keep me from getting as much done as I'd like (and I enjoy playing games so that takes some of my time), so it probably won't be long before he surpasses me in the amount of code written. I've seen many people gasping in awe, as it were, at his construction and frequent updating of WeiDU, but stuff like that happens to most people who love coding. I've certainly amazed my friends and neighbors a time or two, though that's not my intention. It's just fun writing a program and seeing it do what I wanted it to do. It's even more fun if you write it for someone else and they fall in love with it.

 

I won't do it for a living, though, because I don't want to be one of those guys who has to cut content out of his labor of love just so it can ship according to the publisher's deadlines. Nor do I want to counted among those who release a bug-infested commercial product onto the public, thus effectively treating them like paying beta testers. Nope, not this guy. I hate when that happens to me, and I won't do it to someone else. Thus my programming remains a hobby, and I do other things to make a living. If I ever do write another game, I'll probably release it as freeware for the enjoyment of anyone interested. People pay enough for entertainment as it is, these days.

[blue]

I don't know about ToEE, though if they're up to date they would probably be using WeiDU because it makes mod installation and uninstallation a breeze so long as you pay attention to the order in which you installed your mods. (Most people have more than one mod installed so order is important.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the administrative strengths of WeiDU was that it made installation order less important -- especially when working with WeiDU-designed content. Heirarchy issues crop up with the massive mods and esp w/non-Weidu adaptations. No?

[jcompton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the administrative strengths of WeiDU was that it made installation order less important -- especially when working with WeiDU-designed content.  Heirarchy issues crop up with the massive mods and esp w/non-Weidu adaptations.  No?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's basically true, although there are exceptions which require/strongly recommend paying attention to install order due to:

 

- Being a "big fix/tweakpack." Generally things which comb over many or most of the files in the game making wholesale changes like to go first so that they can make their changes before other mods get their grubby little hands on them. There are exceptions, however, but most developers are good about documenting this sort of thing.

- Content dependencies (Mod B has content which requires the presence of Mod A in order to work, like two mod NPCs talking to one another, or one mod quest adding content to another mod quest.)

- Inefficient use of WeiDU (you're overwriting files you should just be patching in place because you were lazy, didn't know what you were doing, etc.)

- Frequent updates of a mod, so you'd like it towards the end of the stack so that when you have to reinstall it, fewer mods have to be "peeled off the stack" first.

 

Pre-WeiDU, the only things you could safely install atop an existing installation were fairly limited--items, I believe creatures, etc. Any changes to existing scripts or files were destructive. Adults were morose, children wept, the skies were gray. Etc.

 

But, no, ToEE modders have their own suite of tools and installation methods, they do not use anything like WeiDU to my understanding.

 

Honestly, I'm a little surprised nobody (other than us, in WeiNGINE) seems to have adapted things like WeiDU dialog construction/compiling for use in other projects, mod or otherwise. (It's GPL, so.) I know the NWN(2) dialog editor gets some good reviews, but any graphical editor would be hard-pressed to code up a complex multi-actor dialogue more quickly than a Wei*-style conditional chain allows. (And even for simple single-actor/PC reply dialogs, it doesn't take more than a few states for .d syntax to start beating a GUI.)

 

I suspect that the fact that one can count on two hands the number of people who are both interested in games and know OCaml is a limiting factor to adapting WeiDU's dialog compiler and patching system to other engine/data file formats.

 

Actually, I think it's just one hand.

Edited January 10, 2007 by jcompton

[blue]

Thx, Jason. My low-tech goggles glazed over a bit there, but I appreciate your replies.

 

Another, if I may: can you speak to your decision to pursue 2d design?

 

How much was this was a matter of convenience vs. a more deliberate aesthetic choice? Did you consider creating a 3d WeiNGINE (if such a thing is possible)? Care to speculate about the resources required for your 2d art production compared to that hypothetical 3d WeiComotive? Are you satisfied w/yr production schedule & the availability of artists?

 

Also, how would characterize Planewalker LLC: as a full or part-time business? (For both you & Wes.)

[Wistrik]

Graphics aren't all that important in CRPGs. Not as important as role-playing and a good story, which are critical for such games. That's why I still enjoy flat 2D games like Ultima 1 through 5, and isometric 2D games like Baldur's Gate. Sure, 3D is fun too, but I've noticed that such graphics can become the central focus of design, which is usually bad for a CRPG. (Unless you've got an awesome crew, which seems to be rare.)

 

This might be a "clever" and "talented" team, but it's also new to the industry and has lots of growing to do. My first game (which regrettably I never published) certainly taught me a few things about balance, fun factor, and immersiveness.

 

A business can be part time or full time, but in the case of game development, a serious crew gives what time they have. Otherwise the project can stagnate and die, which is a shame if the game truly had potential.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Wistrik

[blue]

Graphics aren't all that important in CRPGs. Not as important as role-playing and a good story, which are critical for such games.

I agree.

 

I'm also aware that 2d art can be resource-intensive. There's not a lot of incentive for gaming companies to pursue 2d crpgs in this graphics-obsessed world. So I'm curious about what motivates someone to put his $$ where his mouth is by trying to publish a product for what may be a niche market.

 

Edited January 10, 2007 by blue

[jcompton]

Another, if I may: can you speak to your decision to pursue 2d design? 

 

How much was this was a matter of convenience vs. a more deliberate aesthetic choice? 

 

It came down to a matter of convenience. The conversation went something like this.

 

JC: "So. Shall we have 2D, 3D, or a hybrid? (blah blah blah listing various pros and cons.)"

WW: "It's very simple. You can have a 2D engine. You can't have a 3D engine."

JC: "Okay, then!"

 

We did look into licensing existing 3D and 2D/3D RPG engines but they were out of our price range.

 

Care to speculate about the resources required for your 2d art production compared to that hypothetical 3d WeiComotive?

 

Not with any real authority. But you did say "speculate," so... presumably character/creature work would be somewhat faster in a 3D world because the artists wouldn't have to spend a lot of time rendering a zillion frames of each individual layer. I suspect area creation time is only slightly longer (due to the need for special solidity, occlusion, light, etc. maps, but those are actually fairly easy for the artists to construct) and may actually be faster since the area only has to "look good" from one angle.

 

Are you satisfied w/yr production schedule & the availability of artists?

 

I'll be satisfied with the schedule when we're done.

 

As for artist availability (within our budget, of course), I was a little surprised to find that it was relatively easy to find area artists who could also meet our requirements for special mapping, animation overlays, and so forth but rather difficult to find sprite artists. In retrospect this makes a lot of sense, as soup-to-nuts sprite work isn't much in demand, therefore younger/newer artists aren't being trained to handle it, and the older artists who mastered it 15 years ago are all management or otherwise highly paid nowadays and don't have time to indulge our need for recolorable elves, flaming swords, and tendril staves.

[blue]

JC: "So. Shall we have 2D, 3D, or a hybrid? (blah blah blah listing various pros and cons.)"

WW: "It's very simple. You can have a 2D engine. You can't have a 3D engine."

JC: "Okay, then!"

Haha! Fair enough.

 

Thx, Jason, and best of luck.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

A game made by Baldur's Gate modders? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The graphics look about right, think they're using the same game engine?

[Tigranes]

Different engine, which has been the point of discussion for about 2 pages.

 

I expect it from DR, but still.

 

Looks pretty much exactly like PST pr IWD2 though, that screenshot. I have no idea why people are complaining.

[Musopticon?]

It looks too saturated and clean, otherwise I have no complaints.

[Darque]

I dunno, I think it looks neat like that