Jediphile Posted May 18, 2006 Posted May 18, 2006 [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. I'm going to agree with Darth Blivion on this one. Visas does not submit to the Exile. She submits to the greater cause. It is not the same. If she were submissive to the Exile, then she would do whatever s/he tells her to and always agree with the Exile's decision, and we know that is definitely not the case. On the contrary, Visas openly criticises the Exile for taking risks and flatly refuses to wear the thong that you hate so much or even to lead the Exile to Nihilus before she thinks the Exile is ready for that confrontation. Refusal is not an indication of submissive behaviour. [Jediphile,May 17 2006, 09:44 AM]You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Which you haven't, i just happened to notice... Perhaps that " " should have been a Always easy to take the moral high ground when you have nothing to lose, isn't it Or as Martok (from DS9) would say, "war is much more fun when you're winning" :cool: [Hekate]So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]...especially when first we begin to deceive... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Is that an admission? From me?!? What do you think? [Jediphile]that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Do you mean "not to admit those feelings"? Yes, that's what I meant - this is what happens when you try to type two answers at the same time... :"> [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Then that would be starting it off with a lie. Yes and no. The Exile might no longer care for Atris given how she has treated him, and there are good reasons why he would feel that way. Besides, if he likes Brianna, then he would not be off to a good start by admitting to having feelings for Atris. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]But if you meant it as is posted than that is indeed another reason why he wouldn't have lied. Hence furthering the argument of why we have to take what the characters say as being the truth (except where plot dictates otherwise) because it is all we have to go on. That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Actually, i meant a politician (who just happened to be Reagan) versus a Jedi. Infact, there is very little here (as in not the Star Wars universe) that can be compared to Jedi. The consequence of what you say here is that any and all discussion becomes pointless, because Jedi cannot be compared to normal people, and since jedi do not exist in real life, we can't compare them to anything. I don't agree with that. Not that I like analogies, but beggers can't be choosers... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]When you explained the point of a general understanding of why Ghandi is understandably seen as heroic, i was making the point Jedi are generally seen as heroic therefore it is easy for me to accept Exile did something or somethings Atris would see as heroic. That's not the same at all. I can point specifically to why I admire Ghandi. I cannot do that for the Exile. Indeed, the Exile seems to have only failed in his past, and generally been an average student (according to Vandar and Vrook), so that just begs even more for clarification of Atris' admiration. [Jediphile]Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]And that makes Atris loving Exile more believable how? That sounded alot more snarky than sincere but i can't think of how to rephrase it. That people apparently have a low opinion of the Exile based on her past does not exactly lend support to Atris' admiration for the female Exile. On the contrary, it calls it into question even more. And that is why I maintain that it hurts the story, when we don't get the details about the basis of that admiration. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i can't agree with that. When i think of those who have natural talents i do not, i admire those people's skills. When i think of kids (adults even) who hero worship athletes, they often do so based on the athlete's skill and natural talent and not based on whether that athlete has done something good for them personally nor on if that athlete is a person the admirer would respect. Hero worship of that sort has more to do with what the admirer is attributing to the "worshipee" as opposed to being about the "worshipee's" true qualities. That's due to presumed qualities people expect that person to have. Try having the same athlete kill his wife, make extreme political statements, or molest children, then see if there is any admiration left for his athletic abilities. Besides, if I were really evil, I would now say that since you said jedi are not ordinary people, when I made an analogy to Reagan, I now get to apply the standard and dismiss the comparison. It's a good thing I'm not evil, isn't it... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]And Exile did make Force bonds. Even if Exile doesn't do it purposely, it occurs often enough for the Jedi Masters to have taken notice and for them to be impressed with. Not saying that is the case, just saying i can accept the hero worship without a stated cause as i can love without a reference base. That would require that this is common knowledge, which I doubt. Besides, jedi are not glory-hounds who want to be rich and famous. They're more like monks. So even if you were right and normal people might admire someone for an innate ability (and that's not an admission, since I still doubt it), I don't think the same would be true among the jedi themselves, since it is unreasonable to admire someone for something that he or she did not make an active effort to achieve. That would be like saying that I admire Ghandi's children for who their father was. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. When did Atris become a "hot jedi chick"? She's an ice-queen! She could give the witch in the Narnia movie lessons in how to be frigid and aloof! [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It is 10 years down the road. Carth was seen as a whiner for still being affected by his wife's death 4 years down the road. Atris being so furious with male Exile 10 years later based on her romantic feelings for him is, to me, not only creepy, but difficult to believe, especially for a Jedi Master and all. For anyone to identify that intencely with a person requires s/he has great difficulty distinguishing between the other person and her/himself. Romantic love does that to an extent, but there is more going on than that. Hero worship, especially if it went to the extreme it seems to have, makes more sense to me. Putting Exile up on a pedestal, especially one where Exile is seen to have been able to do no wrong and be the pillar of light and Jedi goodness (sorta the way you think Atton does for Exile but with differences), and mix in Atris expected Exile not to go to war which also justified in her own mind her not going to war, then Exile goes to war, Atris's world, and everything she used to keep herself elevated by in equating herself with Exile, is now gone. Hence, rather than look at herself, she blames Exile. Now that i can see burning at her soul for 10 years. It has little to do with Exile, and alot to do with Atris. If i'm lucky, that provided more clarity on my standpoint. Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Nah, i don't buy the devs threw it in to equal things out. They likely would have chosen 'a hot Jedi hunk' for that instead. Like who? It's not as if there is a great list to choose from... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. If you feel that way, then I fail to see why you're objecting to my criticism of Mical and Sion as love interests... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. So Atris is also poorly done? [Hekate]Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. [Jediphile]Why? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]'cause he had been on her mind. You can say it, but it still made no sense to me. Besides, what does that mean "you've been a presence in my mind"? Given that Sion has been hunting the Exile all through the plot, of course he has been a presence - you're constantly scared that he'll track you down and kill you, after all. It's a completely redundant comment to make, if you look at it in that context. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. The Atton-Sion fight was cut. And in any event, I seem to recall that Atton is player-controlled during that fight and that he can win it, which also makes your point moot. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. I don't follow. But that might be because I just don't believe in the Sion-Exile "relationship". [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. Ah, but then you're doing with Sion precisely what you won't let me do for Atris - assigning different value to the relationship even though the outcome is the same in either event. If you're allowed to assign a deeper interpretation to the outcome of the confrontation with Sion, because you see romance in it that are not there for the male Exile, then is it not just as reasonable to assign a similarly deeper aspect to the male Exile's relationship with Atris, when we know that she loved him? Sion must be persuaded to die regardless of the Exile's gender - there is ultimately no difference. If you assign a different interpretation to Sion's death for the female Exile, then I'm just as justified in doing something similar for Atris in the male Exile's story. [Jediphile]I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, Of course he does. Atris is doing everything she can to hide her true feelings, whereas Sion longs openly for feelings that he as lost in his now undead state. That's not a relevant basis of comparison. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]and she tries to kill Exile after she had let him go the first time because Kreia told her she would be the next Darth Traya. Unlike Sion who tries to kill the Exile everytime they meet? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]By having that be the reason, they reduce the impact of her loving him by virtue of her attempt on his life has nothing to do with him. Whereas with Sion, his letting go instead of giving in increases the impact of his loving her. And i know the whole point of Atris having to kill Exile specifically is a sort of Sith rite to bring her to the DS, but as with Sion, she tries to kill all incarnations of Exile even if she did love male Exile. Atris is DS. She does not need to kill the Exile to meet some silly Sith standard. Kreia manipulated her to do it, sure, but is Kreia Atris' master now? I think not. Atris sees herself as the master and continues to - there is no ritual involved. As for Sion, he has to die in just the same way regardless of your gender, so that is a non-factor, even if you did believe him to be sincere about his feelings, which I don't. It's like you're saying that the outcome is the same in Atris' case, so it's irrelevant, but it's not for Sion because you assign a value to the relationship even though you have to defeat in just the same way. Sorry, but that sounds like a double standard to me. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris for the male Exile, so that's not particularly compelling argument for the female Exile's story. Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Does that mean Atris' feelings for Exile went away when she tried to kill him? Do we then doubt she loved him at all and it was all just a ruse so he would let his guard down when she finally did try to kill him? No, of course not. i find it hard to believe she would try to kill someone she loves just because Kreia told her to. i fail to see the logic of Sion lying about his feelings to female Exile at that point. The difference is that Atris' feelings have had the time to become twisted and perverse, whereas Sion's have not. Therefore he should logically be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are, and yet he tries to kill the Exile at every turn. He is newly in love, which should make him want to embrace the Exile, only he doesn't. Atris' love, however, has been twisted into something perverse for a decade, making it far more believable that it no longer manifests itself in the way that it logically should. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. Wrong. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." You cannot admit that Atris loved the male Exile but merely admired the female without reading that sentence in a different light. It may have been the same for both male and female Exile, I'm not sure, but it's inescapable that it does not carry the same interpretation for the male Exile that it did for the female. And obviously there is a great difference, since you can choose to let Atris live (and actually will with the above), whereas Sion must die in any event. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Female Exile gets to say Sion is a presence in her mind, he gets to tell her she is important to him. The fact she says "as well" with regard to him being a presence in her mind indicates she believes what he is saying is true. *confusion* "Presence in my mind" can mean anything, including that she has been scared of Sion, who has continually been trying to kill her her throughout the game. What it means is therefore entirely the player's interpretation, and in any event, it still has no consequence to the outcome. [Jediphile]No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why not? What indication was there of him not being sincere? Repeatedly trying to kill people you claim to love is not likely to make them think you're sincere, methinks. [Jediphile]Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i'm not sure how well the 2 can be compared; a child being removed from her/his family, and a youth having an attraction to her/his master. Mical said he felt awe and things along those lines. There is nothing to indicate an intence crush or lust. Most likely, if his feelings were strong enough to warrant it, they would have done something about it, but they obviously were not. Considering that Mical never became the Exile's apprentice, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. That it didn't happen is no basis for concluding that it cannot have been a problem. I can just as well conclude that they didn't deal with it simply because the problem never arose in the first place and so they never became aware of it. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. That's a comment aimed at Atris dismissing the Exile's wound as a thing of the dark side out of hand, not of her emotions towards the Exile. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i find it very difficult to believe they would have done absolutely nothing about it. As on their high horse and infalible as they believe themselves to be, Atris' feelings posed the real and forseeable danger she would fall to the DS. Such strong emotions are the very thing they guard against the most. Probably, but it never became relevant, since the Exile was, well, exiled and left. And besides, maybe Atris was good at hiding her emotions from them. Or they could have decided to let her deal with it on her own as a test of her character and only intervene if she began losing control. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Also, i thought Zez-Kai Ell was speaking his doubts about the Jedi teachings as a whole rather than casting blame on the Masters. He did say he left the Order the day Exile was exiled since he felt they should have asked why Exile chose to defy the Council, but then he speaks of how Exile's wound made them affraid and they couldn't deal with it. But that is quite different than counselling a fellow Master on controling her feelings. The strength of a Jedi comes from them never having to stand alone. By ignoring Atris' feelings and letting her isolate herself through their intencity, they are intentionally cutting her off from the Jedis' source of strength. i just can't see that, especially not given how fond of deliberating, minding eachother's business, and meditating on problems they are. They would need for Atris to acknowledge the problem herself, first. You cannot help someone unless they first accept that they have a problem. Besides, this is just another example of the very arrogance that the masters have been guilty off at this time. They think everyone else is flawed, and that they are themselves - including Atris - infallible. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Oops! i could have made that more clear. i meant if, when meeting the Council for the first time, Revan is obviously DS (in the DS alignment range, especially at point wherein it shows in Revan's features), why did they send her/him without a Master leaving Bastila out to dry with her having a strong bond with Revan, especially since she is so important with her battle meditation? That did not make any sense to me whatsoever. Nor did the whole sending them without a Master because it would draw too much attention. How so? Masters can hide their presences, can they not? The risk of sending them without one far outweighs the risk of sending one, i would think... First of all, I still don't see why Revan was *obviously* DS during that meeting. My Revan was fairly close to LS mastery at that point, actually. Anyway, the masters did explain it. 1. Sending a master along would be a beacon that Malak could track. They did not send one, because Bastila and Revan then had a better chance of slipping under the radar, while Malak was busy with all the more powerful jedi. And no, it's not easy to hide your presence, when you're a very powerful jedi. Yoda hid on Dagobah, because the cave where the dark side was strong (where Luke had his vision-battle with Vader) shielded his presence there. Apparently Sith are better at this, since Palpatine could hide under the nose of the order. Then again, they had no idea to look for him... 2. They send Bastila along, because she shared Revan's visions, and so if Revan was untrustworthy, they would at least still get the clues to where the starmaps were located and at least have a chance of finding the starforge that way. Obviously that concern must have outweighed the value of Bastila's battle meditation. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Hmm. i think he does have a complex psyche and things aren't as unentangled within him as they seem. When he speaks of Malachor V, he does not do so as if it was something of his past that has been dealt with. There even is the cut-scene where he and Exile couldn't sleep and he tells Exile of his dream of the MSG activation and he tells Exile the event is within him still. It is embeded in his psyche, he can't escape it. It's in his past so obviously it stays with him. He has to deal with it continually, since the alternative is to suppress it. And the Exile's presence has probably opened the wound a bit. But he does not have a problem dealing with it, and seems to come to the Exile mostly because he knows s/he probably feels the same way. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. I don't see him being at odds with himself. He is quite open about where he stands here and what sort of responsibility he takes for his past. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]That he holds onto the notion Exile is not to blame for giving the order whereas he is for acting on that order shows he aknowledges his own falibility and he has a clarity of understanding his own responsibility, yet he cannot clearly see his insisting Exile is not responsible is delusional. Because that would make his own guilt pointless. Bao-Dur must accept that responsibility, because that is the only way his choices have lasting meaning. The alternative is that his actions had no significance, and that if he had not build the MSG, then someone else would have built it or something similar. He accepts responsibility, because it gives him control over the situation in the sense that all those terrible things would not have happened, if only he had made a different choice himself. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We agree he isn't in denial (other than about the responsibility Exile had in events). And he is strong for not running from his responsibilities nor from the intencity of the emotions he used to feel. The unique thing about him is he is in a different place psychologically than everyone else. This is where we differ on this; he does surpress his feelings. When Exile does something evil, he calmly says (paraphrasing) "I only follow you because of what we have been through together General". That is him supressing the anger, disappointment, and myriad of other different things he feels so he can go on doing what he is. He changed from who he was during the Mandalorian Wars. From being an emotion driven person reacting to emotional stimulus (he even enlisted out of hate and anger), to being a reserved person who tries to do things following reason by surpressing his emotions. He does not like where his emotions had lead him. In order to not become the same monster he was, he has learned to control his anger and other emotions through supressing them. I don't entirely agree, since the only conclusion to your statements here is that you can control your emotions only by suppressing or denying them, and I do not believe that is true. I believe that you can acknowledge your emotions internally and yet choose not to respond to them outwardly. Otherwise it would be the same as saying that I'm suppressing my emotions, if someone insults me, and I choose not to go ballistic and yell at him for it. But I also have the option of just shaking my head (inwardly or otherwise) and thinking "what an idiot!", and then ignoring him because he's not worth the trouble. Is that suppression? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. Atton didn't leave the Sith, he escaped. And his guilt and self-denial haunts him throughout the game. That's why Kreia can manipulate him with impunity. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] As stated above, they aren't in his past since he is still effected by it during the game. The past will always be a part of who you are at any given point in your life, and it must be reexamined on a continual basis, especially if there are dark episodes there. That's what Bao-Dur is doing. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i do think he sees Exile as sacrosanct. There is no other reason i can fathom why he is so rational about everything other than Exile. Exile gave the order. Bao-Dur cannot accept Exile bears the responsibility that now rests on her/his shoulders because of it. Yet he can accept his own. There has to be some reason for that, some reason why he doesn't let Exile bear her/his rightful burden of responsibility and guilt. And that reason is simple: If Bao-Dur lets the Exile accept responsibility, then he will be admitting to himself that it really wasn't his fault, and that any choice he made at the time was pointless. That is more difficult for him to bear than it is to accept the responsibility for himself, it gives him control over the situation. His logic is that if he had not build the MSG, then none of it would have happened, and the guilt of that is easier to live with than the idea that he had no say in the matter and that his choices had no consequence. This is all fairly basic psychology, I think. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i never said it is a good basis to go into a relationship consciously expecting nor thinking of. i was explaining how a relationship between them would affect them, and by extension why it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing for them. Bad for the plot, though, since it's not romance on a sound basis. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. No, she did not make herself the Exile's servant. She made herself a servant to the greater cause of destroying Nihilus. Not the same at all. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. Yes, but then KotOR2 takes place over the course of an entire year or more, and there are a lot of experiences during that time. And Visas seems to put her trauma behind her with astounding strength. But I don't agree with you that she is fully aware in the cutscene you mention above. Knowing Visas, it seems more likely that she is a witness to her own actions more than anything. She does not take a shot at Nihilus - she states openly whether there is concern. Given how much she is broken upon Nihilus' will at the time, she never would have dared to challenge of question his authority. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] She doesn't say, until before the Ravager when speaking with male Exile on the Ebon Hawk, she thinks perhaps life can be something to value. When on Onderon, and the Vaklu soldiers attack the cantina, she wants to slaughter everyone to rid the galaxy of the festering life she sees people represent. Well, those are not nice people... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. What?!? Are we playing the same game? Visas absolutely *refuses* to take the Exile to Nihilus until s/he is powerful enough to defeat him in the VERY FIRST conversation you ever have with her Visas: "Even if I could lead you to my Master, I cannot permit you to find him... until you are ready.{Quiet}If I bring you before my Master, untested, without your potential realized, then you will be lost to me. {Beat}And I cannot allow that to happen.It would be as if one brought fire to a paradise valley, shattered a cavern of rare crystal... or blinded a painter.It is a choice that can be made by neither one of us.Do not be so quick to meet that which you do not understand. Use the time you have now, to grow, to train, and to strengthen yourself. {Firm, slight passion}I cannot - I will not. I would die first, and gladly, to preserve you, untouched, unharmed. Now that I have found you, I cannot sacrifice what I have found.You will meet my master. It is inevitable, I have... seen it. And when you stand before him, and realize what you face, you must be prepared. Until then, I must protect you, help you, until you are ready. There is a... a greatness in you, a greatness that does not stem from the Force. It stems from who you are. And if my Master does not understand you, cannot see you, then perhaps there is hope for us all. But if you seek to survive, then you must understand why this is so." [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i think it is to get Exile as strong as possible so s/he can feed Nihilus better. That was her mandate afterall. I had similar concerns playing the game, but it doesn't come to pass, so apparently Visas was sincere all along. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. She talks of hope in the very first conversation you ever have with her. I don't see her as quite as traumatized as you do. Sure she has been through a lot, but Visas is a complex and strong person. She may have suffered under Nihilus, but she has also gained insight far beyond what her apparently young age would suggest. That's why she's able to take it all in stride. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] From a certain point of view, Visas having feelings for male Exile isn't necessarily of itself a bad thing. It might even be seen as a good sign she is able to feel a bit of a broader range of emotions again. What i am saying is she is still way too severly traumatized for anything positive to come of it if he pursued, especially since Exile is as deep in denial and unaffected by others' needs as he (and female Exile) seems to be. Adding more dilemas to Visas though, seems to be more cruel and to be pushing things with her character too far as opposed to being more humanizing. Atton never sees himself as worthy, Disciple submits completely to the Exile, and Brianna just loves the shadow of her dead father. Any of those healthy? No. I maintain that Visas is far more mature and strong than any of the alternate love interests. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Thankfully she was aware of the confrontation's inevitability from the start. And yes, if she loves Exile than that is him getting into harm's way; however; she did ask him to stay and not confront Nihilus thus he is putting himself in harm's way. And that you said she is doing it is telling. Visas will take that burden onto herself eventhough it really doesn't belong there. And that is one example that depicts why i feel the devs adding her loving Exile to the already heavily burdened character takes away from the plot and from her character development. If she does not love Exile, then Exile just becomes a weapon she can use to fight Nihilus with. Does that make the plot better or worse? [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He loses control of himself because of the bond and because killing is something he has ingrained in him. Atton was a torturer, not a warrior. And if it's just because of the bond, then why does only he "blank" out when he attacks. The others do it because they must stand together, but Atton seems to do it even against his own will. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. And that she doesn't offer herself tells me that she wants to go on living. But she is willing to accept death, if that is what it takes to defeat Nihilus. Visas doesn't hate life, she is just scared that there is no hope for it, and so she is reluctant to hold out hope for it. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. He has a complete infiriority-complex towars the Exile throughout the game. He loves her, but hates himself far too much to ever reach out for her. And he doesn't love her as much as he loves the concept of redemption that she represents to him. Not a good basis. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. He still submits entirely to her will, and far more than Visas could ever hope to match, since he submits to the Exile directly, while Visas submits herself to a greater cause. Mical may disagree with the Exile on occasion, but he doesn't seem to have much personality or sense of self. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He needs something to light the metaphorical fire under him to get him going. Just saying an intimate relationship would do that. No, he doesn't. Bao-Dur is fine. Why does he need fire under him? If Bao-Dur can make it alone in his life, then more power to him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. I'm not sure I understand... [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i disagree with that. Atton in part wants to be able to do as she can, but there is far more to it than that. From the begining he saw Exile's weaknesses, and weakness is not something he finds appealing, and his natural inclination is to exploit it which he chooses not to do. Also from the begining, he saw Exile's strengths, her/his courage and determination. He didn't even know about the dark past at that point. When Exile is DS, he voices his discontent strongly. When Exile is LS, he speaks of it being good. To me, that indicates he is working on changing, and he is doing so regardless of what Exile does. He is a complicated person who is torn in many different directions. i do concede though, at the end of the day, his alignment and if he falls back into the pattern of his Revan days, depends a great deal on Exile. That is the nature of Exile's Force bond. Visas has the exact same large and actuated alignment deciding based on Exile. Atton and Visas' pasts are the reasons for their maleability. Visas is far more willing to disagree with the exile and criticize him/her than Atton, who is more of a confused person than a complicated one. Visas is complicated, but Atton is not, he "just" has a dark past that he cannot put behind him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. The MSG had no impact on the force. It's just a weapon, albeit a fairly nasty one. The impact on the force was the Exile's doing. Otherwise the whole point of the force wound becomes irrelevant to the story. The MSG was just the catalyst that made the exile cut himself off from the force and cause the wound. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. And yet Bao-Dur accepts responsibility for both, for the reasons I've already stated. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] What she saw, unless i am mistaken, is Exile's lack of connection to the Force. Exile's wound and the nothing the Jedi Masters saw. That would be very akin to Nihilus. Well, you already know that I see Exile and Nihilus as opposite sides of the same wound, so Visas seeing the "other" is not so unlikely to me. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, You said, "they lost a huge slew of Jedi." That suggests rather a lot. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]nor that i implied the older Jedi did not take on padawans. I clearly state they most likely did. Jolee in KotOR spoke of the Exar Kun Wars splitting the Order and many Jedi died, leaving the Order weakened and with severly reduced numbers since many went to the DS, and others died fighting those who left. Based on that, those who had padawans and those who were to teach them, were lost, leaving a rather large youngling population without the chance to become padawans. A similar thing occured with the Mandalorian Wars. Except not as many left to fight, and most of the older generations remained with the yonger post-Exar generations leaving. They were at teaching age, therefore when they left, a larger number of youngling were left without those who could teach them. For the life of me I cannot understand the logic here. Yes, I realise that Mical says it, but that still doesn't mean that it makes any sense. Revan's jedi were mostly *THE YOUNGER JEDI* We hear again and again of the older jedi losing their padawans to Revan's cause. THOSE ARE PADAWANS AND NOT TEACHERS. The only thing anyone has ever said to suggest that teachers left is Mical's one statement that nobody was left to teach him. I will take the repeated statements to the contrary of everyone else talking on the subject over just Mical's any day. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. How so? The older jedi and masters lost the majority of their padawans, while the younglings lost some teachers. The only logical conclusion I can reach from following that is that there were more teachers than needed. [Hekate] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Did i say it is the only important factor? Did i say it is the most important factor? Did i say a character is less significant without a personal tie to Exile? Nope. i didn't at that. And I'm not allowed to question that factor? I didn't even take it out of context, you know... Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Dhampyre Posted May 18, 2006 Author Posted May 18, 2006 Oh lord!! I leave for a week and i find the very reason i decided to join this forum and create this topic to be the hot discussion. Ok folks, i am jumping back into this pool. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. What the hell is with this Sion/Atris BS? Neither are proper Love interests in the game. Sure they both show some romantic feelings to the exile (sion if female, atris if male) but using that as an arguement to make the exile female is quite absurd. Having said that Atris's reason for finding the exile attractive is more convincing and more believable, her background story for romance with the exile is deeper. Whereas on Sion's part its pretty much lust and nothing more. Ohh and Hekate, Pardon me for being away for so long but i just have to bring this up since i never got to answer you. female exile 4 : male exile 2?? Thats the romantic relathionships counted??? Dude? wtf?? Female Exile has Disciple and Atton (sort of its not really love, more like infatuation with Atton). Thats 2!! Count em 2!! Are you adding Sion and Bao-Dur?? wtf? If you are adding Sion, Then we can Add Atris for Male exile.....and Bao Dur?? There isn't even a hint of romance there. Although with Bao-Dur we do get the problem of misunderstanding their relationship. Exile-Bao-Dur have a strict old war buddies relationship, and Bao-Dur looking up to the exile if the exile is female can be confused for romance which IT IS NOT. So as it seems if you choose to add Sion/Atris to the list, its 3-3 each for male/female. Disciple, Atton and Sion (if you insist on bringing him in) Visas, Handmaiden and Atris (same as above). Look at those two lists and the relationships. The male exile relationships are more detailed, have better stories and Visas-Exile is the best romantic twist in all of KoTOR II period. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. Again Hekate you are being selective in what you say and what you leave out. KoTOR II was rushed because Lucasarts wanted it released when Episode III came out to boost sales. So alot of content was cut. The content you mentioned was for the female exile. The cut content for the male exile had a similar battle take place originally between Atris and Handmaiden. Infact Atris was given a much bigger role than Sion since there was the possibility of her to become "Darth Traya" instead of Kreia (Depending on how we played the game). So don't pull that on us. Hekate you are taking trivial matters and using them as arguements for the exile to be female. "Sion loves female exile so exile should be female, "atton could have died in the game at the hands of sion if the female exile loved them". All i hear is "could have" and "if the exile is female". The simple fact is people who played KoTOR II for the first time with a female exile prefer the female exile because thats what left the first impression AND People who played KoTOR II for the first time with a Male exile Prefer the Male Exile. I think the current poll results also speak for themselves. Anyway, back me up here guys?
Jediphile Posted May 18, 2006 Posted May 18, 2006 The content you mentioned was for the female exile. The cut content for the male exile had a similar battle take place originally between Atris and Handmaiden. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, the Atris vs. Handmaiden fight is not cut content - it is there in the game if you play male Exile. What was cut from that scene, however, was Brianna fighting her sisters, but that too will be restored in the TSLRP, apparently with the option to defeat them in non-lethal combat, which one of the sound-files seems to point to. Infact Atris was given a much bigger role than Sion since there was the possibility of her to become "Darth Traya" instead of Kreia (Depending on how we played the game). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To be honest, I'm actually glad they dropped that idea. It didn't make much sense to me that Atris would take over all of Kreia's goals just like that. I do regret that she did not become a party member to replace Kreia. That would have been so cool. Anyway, back me up here guys? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Have I not done so even in your absence and without being asked? Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Hekate Posted May 19, 2006 Posted May 19, 2006 (edited) *** Scathing sarcasm alert! ... Warning! Warning! Rhetoric flailling wildly!! *** I am so sick of this malarky. WTF, dude? Did you actually read with your eyes open, or did you like, use the Force? Take what i said in context. Anyone could clip a quote and then apply it wrongly and claim it to mean something it doesn't. i suggest you re-read, if you actually read it at all, what i wrote. i am so friken' tired of having to restate what i have already said and having to re-explain my intent when i have already done so before. Changing the context of what an issue is while it is being debated, messes it up. This whole thing began with claims female Exile gets less relationships than male, that the story makes less sense with female Exile and yadda, yadda, ya. i have already made it clear if Bao-Dur isn't counted, than they are equal in terms of number. Honest. It is right there in the post you conveniently didn't take in context and used that to misrepresent what i was saying. But i guess i shouldn't be surprised by that since it is how victories are won... What the hell is with this Sion/Atris BS? Neither are proper Love interests in the game. Sure they both show some romantic feelings to the exile (sion if female, atris if male) but using that as an arguement to make the exile female is quite absurd. Funny how that same argument wherein neiter makes a proper love interest then is reduced to it being absurd for female Exile alone. How can i counter such bias? WTF can i say that will carry enough meaning so it will be taken in context and seriously? Here is the best i can do since i am not a smart person who obviously cannot articulate a point well enough for it to be understood: "so is using Atris as a reason to make Exile cannon male. That is the whole point. The unequal applying of what makes a good character and story vs what doesn't." Is that good enough? Are you convinced? Were you somehow moved by what i said? Does what i write even matter? Ich bin ein Berliner! Having said that Atris's reason for finding the exile attractive is more convincing and more believable, her background story for romance with the exile is deeper. Whereas on Sion's part its pretty much lust and nothing more. What can i say to that? Atris finding male Exile attractive is more believable and deeper than Sion's lust. Ok then. Sure, WTF not? How about i help you out by adding Atris is hot and Sion is all gross. Atris FTW! Ohh and Hekate, Pardon me for being away for so long but i just have to bring this up since i never got to answer you. female exile 4 : male exile 2?? Thats the romantic relathionships counted??? Dude? wtf?? Female Exile has Disciple and Atton (sort of its not really love, more like infatuation with Atton). Thats 2!! Count em 2!! Are you adding Sion and Bao-Dur?? wtf? If you are adding Sion, Then we can Add Atris for Male exile.....and Bao Dur?? There isn't even a hint of romance there. Although with Bao-Dur we do get the problem of misunderstanding their relationship. Exile-Bao-Dur have a strict old war buddies relationship, and Bao-Dur looking up to the exile if the exile is female can be confused for romance which IT IS NOT. So as it seems if you choose to add Sion/Atris to the list, its 3-3 each for male/female. Disciple, Atton and Sion (if you insist on bringing him in) Visas, Handmaiden and Atris (same as above). Look at those two lists and the relationships. The male exile relationships are more detailed, have better stories and Visas-Exile is the best romantic twist in all of KoTOR II period. Re-read the post. Then read it again. Read it a third time, then tell me if you still think i was saying what you are implying. i so love how it is argued the male romantic interests are simple and not really significant but the female love interests are so fraking deep and make such better storylines and characters. We all know that MUST be true because we all know in literature, film, hell everywhere in popular culture, women are portrayed as strong and healthy individuals who aren't in the least subservient to males, nor do they do idiotic and humiliating things just to please men such as, oh, i don't know, try to spar in a low cut thong say. Oh, pardon me. Substitute "thong" for "impractical sparing gear". How could i have been such a f*cking idiot to have seen the females in the game in that light? This is SW, afterall, where it isn't as humiliating to be put into a slave-girl outfit as it is letting oneself be captured by Ewoks since being made a slave and paraded as a sex object is so empowering. i only wish all the females i knew were given such a confidence boosting experience at least once so they would benefit from the inner stregth and joy it would bring them. Of course the Visas-Exile romance is the best. What the hell have i been thinking this whole time? And it really was such an in-fraken-credible twist. Visas falling for the guy who is responsible for making the Force wound that created Nihilus who destroyed all life on her homeworld. But why the bloody hell not? She's a right tough lass who can bounce right back from such a trivial thing. It not only makes sense she isn't subservient to Exile when she says "my life for yours", it is imperitave she means it in the "I'm gonna use you to kill Nihilus" way. Again, i don't see how i could have missed such an obvious thing; Visas and Exile romance being the best. So, i officially rescind my position and state that indeed, male Exile not only should be cannon, but that every post of mine stating otherwishe should be deleted by the moderators since i was spreading false information to the masses. And let's face it, they are so bloody long too. i can only wish my previous disagreements haven't permanently damaged anyone, and that the horror of having read them will lessen with time. So i bid you all, adieu. [Exuent stage left] ***Downgrade Sarcasm Alert Status to Nominal. Sarcasm threat has been neutralized through venting**** Regular posting resumes: [Dhampyre,May 18 2006, 03:12 PM] Oh lord!! I leave for a week and i find the very reason i decided to join this forum and create this topic to be the hot discussion. Ok folks, i am jumping back into this pool. Welcome back. It is good to see the original topic poster participating again. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. [Dhampyre] What the hell is with this Sion/Atris BS? Neither are proper Love interests in the game. Sure they both show some romantic feelings to the exile (sion if female, atris if male) but using that as an arguement to make the exile female is quite absurd. i think they count as love interests because they are seen as having feelings for the protagonist. Without getting hung up on the details, since they are important figures in the story, how they feel matters. [Dhampyre] Having said that Atris's reason for finding the exile attractive is more convincing and more believable, her background story for romance with the exile is deeper. Whereas on Sion's part its pretty much lust and nothing more. She doesn't give any reason at all why she is attracted to Exile, nor does she state what she sees in him. Sion does tell Exile what he sees in her. How that makes Atris' love deeper, i don't know. i also completely disagree Sion's feelings for Exile are lust. i haven't a clue how you came to see it that way, Dhampyre. Would you mind elaborating? [Dhampyre] Ohh and Hekate, Pardon me for being away for so long but i just have to bring this up since i never got to answer you. No problemo. You don't owe me an appology for that, but it is nice of you so, thank you [Dhampyre] female exile 4 : male exile 2?? Thats the romantic relathionships counted??? Dude? wtf?? Female Exile has Disciple and Atton (sort of its not really love, more like infatuation with Atton). Thats 2!! Count em 2!! Are you adding Sion and Bao-Dur?? wtf? If you are adding Sion, Then we can Add Atris for Male exile.....and Bao Dur?? There isn't even a hint of romance there. So as it seems if you choose to add Sion/Atris to the list, its 3-3 each for male/female. Disciple, Atton and Sion (if you insist on bringing him in) Visas, Handmaiden and Atris (same as above). As i stated in my sacrastic venting portion of my post, i think if you re-read where i originally posted those ideas and in the post to follow, i explained the tabulation system and the count. i don't know how to do links and such, i really am not on friendly terms with computers in the least, so i'll tell you they are posts #37 http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ic=41617&st=30# and #42 http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ic=41617&st=30#. i don't know how to link up to the direct quote. [Dhampyre] Although with Bao-Dur we do get the problem of misunderstanding their relationship. Exile-Bao-Dur have a strict old war buddies relationship, and Bao-Dur looking up to the exile if the exile is female can be confused for romance which IT IS NOT. i explicitly stated i had read Bao-Dur was originally supposed to be a romantic option for female Exile but in the released game he was not, nor does it appear to be in the cut content. That if one does count him as an option if one is to look at the cannon in the big picture (ie just because it was cut from the game doesn't mean it has to be excluded from further works), than it makes 4, if one doesn't, they both have 3 a piece. [Dhampyre] Look at those two lists and the relationships. The male exile relationships are more detailed, have better stories and Visas-Exile is the best romantic twist in all of KoTOR II period. i assume you didn't read all of the posts Jediphile, Darth Blivion, Xard, Krookie, Shadow Paladin, Kinokono, DAWUSS, galassia, HK-47_THE_MEATBAG_KILLER, Whootidoo, and i posted since that is alot of material to cover, but it does contain debate on the topic of the Visas-Exile romance which may alter how it is viewed if read. So i'll say there are reasons why that romance in particular may not be the best romance in KotOR II. If you have read them and hold to that view than i request you share more details on why, if you are so inclined. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. [Dhampyre] Again Hekate you are being selective in what you say and what you leave out. KoTOR II was rushed because Lucasarts wanted it released when Episode III came out to boost sales. So alot of content was cut. The content you mentioned was for the female exile. The cut content for the male exile had a similar battle take place originally between Atris and Handmaiden. Infact Atris was given a much bigger role than Sion since there was the possibility of her to become "Darth Traya" instead of Kreia (Depending on how we played the game). So don't pull that on us. First, the Atris-Brianna fight was left in the game and i even made reference to it to lend weight to the Atris-Exile romance argument in earlier posts (#37 i believe). Second, whaddaya mean "don't pull that on us"? What i wrote about the Sion & Atton fight on Malachor V was to defend my position about Sion's merrit. It isn't exactly fair to expect me to add stuff about Atris when i am trying to explain something about Sion. You don't add info on how Atton's romance option is good when you speak of Visas' romance, nor do you speak of Mical's merrits when you are depicting Brianna's, do you? *Hekate is unhappy * [Dhampyre] Hekate you are taking trivial matters and using them as arguements for the exile to be female. "Sion loves female exile so exile should be female, "atton could have died in the game at the hands of sion if the female exile loved them". All i hear is "could have" and "if the exile is female". Now i am miffed. These trivial matters are spoken of across the board, or are you suggesting my points are trivial while the points of those who disagree with me are significant? When speaking of Sion, Atton, fill in the blank, it is to explain my views and positions which had been called into question. i really do not understand why there is such a discrepancy in the assigned value of what points i am making vs the points others are making. [Dhampyre] The simple fact is people who played KoTOR II for the first time with a female exile prefer the female exile because thats what left the first impression AND People who played KoTOR II for the first time with a Male exile Prefer the Male Exile. That could be so. It wasn't for me, but that is just me. [Dhampyre] I think the current poll results also speak for themselves. Within their own context, they do. i haven't voted. [Dhampyre] Anyway, back me up here guys? *joke* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! *end joke* [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. [Jediphile,May 18 2006, 01:41 PM] I'm going to agree with Darth Blivion on this one. Visas does not submit to the Exile. She submits to the greater cause. It is not the same. If she were submissive to the Exile, then she would do whatever s/he tells her to and always agree with the Exile's decision, and we know that is definitely not the case. On the contrary, Visas openly criticises the Exile for taking risks and flatly refuses to wear the thong that you hate so much or even to lead the Exile to Nihilus before she thinks the Exile is ready for that confrontation. Refusal is not an indication of submissive behaviour. Why is it that if Visas is subserviant to Exile, she has to do everything s/he tells her to? In other relationships that are unequal by their nature (ie parent and child or boss and employee), the one who is in the subserviant role does not always have to do everything requested of them, but there is still that inherent inequality in their "rank". Visas, who hates all life and wants to see it end, will not do unecessary things for the mere amusement of a Hutt. i see the reasoning for her refusal. She sees no worth in Vogga's existence, so doing such for his benefit is not something she would even consider. Exile doesn't order her to, and even if s/he did, i still can't see why that would be reason enough for her to dismiss her contempt for such things. The misson was to get at Vogga's horde. It had nothing to do with defeating Nihilus. And, Visas has plenty of submissive behaviours, those certainly should be considered along with the refusal. Using Visas not telling Exile where Nihilus is as a point to prove her refusing Exile seems a bit lacking since she herself tells Exile she doesn't know how to find him. He finds her. [Jediphile] Always easy to take the moral high ground when you have nothing to lose, isn't it Or as Martok (from DS9) would say, "war is much more fun when you're winning" :cool: And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. [Jediphile] Yes and no. The Exile might no longer care for Atris given how she has treated him, and there are good reasons why he would feel that way. Besides, if he likes Brianna, then he would not be off to a good start by admitting to having feelings for Atris. Brianna: "you did not have feelings for her... did you?" Exile: whatever incarnation of "no" If he did, that would be a lie. Generally, honesty would be the best way to begin a relationship, i would think [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example *sigh* [Jediphile] The consequence of what you say here is that any and all discussion becomes pointless, because Jedi cannot be compared to normal people, and since jedi do not exist in real life, we can't compare them to anything. I don't agree with that. Not that I like analogies, but beggers can't be choosers... No, that is not what i am saying. i meant here there is no match for Jedi since we don't have the ability to use Force powers and such. Certainly one could draw comparissons between Jedi and holy warriors of whatever religion/culture/etc.. One may even compare non-holy warriors such as Samurai with their bushido code. i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. [Jediphile] That's not the same at all. I can point specifically to why I admire Ghandi. I cannot do that for the Exile. Indeed, the Exile seems to have only failed in his past, and generally been an average student (according to Vandar and Vrook), so that just begs even more for clarification of Atris' admiration. i hardly consider being granted Jedihood and being allowed to teach padawans a failure. i do not recall anything in the game to signify Exile was a failure. Being an average student means just that: average. Not below average, not lacking, s/he was just not above average nor exceptional other than in her/his ability to create exceptionally potent Force bonds. Which on its own is quite something. Perhaps it is the very fact this average student has such a gift is what Atris admires. i don't know. But i also don't know a reason why Exile should be precluded from being worthy of being seen as heroic in Atris' eyes. We know very little of Atris, other than she is obsessive, she fell to the DS, was a Jedi Master, and is manipulated by Kreia. We have no means to measure what she values, what moves her, nor why. Same goes for Exile. We barely know anything about her/him, and we certainly know little of her/his past. Therefore, i see no reason why Atris' feelings cannot be accepted as presented, be they hero worship and/or love. [Jediphile] That people apparently have a low opinion of the Exile based on her past does not exactly lend support to Atris' admiration for the female Exile. On the contrary, it calls it into question even more. And that is why I maintain that it hurts the story, when we don't get the details about the basis of that admiration. Vrook has a low opinion of Exile. Master Kavar did not, nor did Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Vandar, and Atris. [Jediphile] That's due to presumed qualities people expect that person to have. Try having the same athlete kill his wife, make extreme political statements, or molest children, then see if there is any admiration left for his athletic abilities. And back to Exile, how does what you said apply? Exile most certainly did not perform such heinous acts before joining the Mandalorian Wars. [Jediphile] Besides, if I were really evil, I would now say that since you said jedi are not ordinary people, when I made an analogy to Reagan, I now get to apply the standard and dismiss the comparison. It's a good thing I'm not evil, isn't it... i am lost. i don't follow your reasoning here. Could you please clarify? (Not being sacastic) [Jediphile] That would require that this is common knowledge, which I doubt. Besides, jedi are not glory-hounds who want to be rich and famous. They're more like monks. So even if you were right and normal people might admire someone for an innate ability (and that's not an admission, since I still doubt it), I don't think the same would be true among the jedi themselves, since it is unreasonable to admire someone for something that he or she did not make an active effort to achieve. That would be like saying that I admire Ghandi's children for who their father was. No, it would be like saying you admire Ghandi for his intelect. Something he naturally possesses and cannot be altered through working on it. And the very fact Vrook and Vandar speak about Exile's abilities in the holorecording proves it was common knowledge to the Masters at the very least. Add to that the fact the Jedi seem to tend to know everything like that about eachother, it would only make sense for Atris to be aware of it as well. [Jediphile] When did Atris become a "hot jedi chick"? She's an ice-queen! She could give the witch in the Narnia movie lessons in how to be frigid and aloof! i used "hot" in the slang definition meaning: attractive, sexy, good looking... Not "hot" as in passionate, warm, friendly.... [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. [Jediphile] Like who? It's not as if there is a great list to choose from... Good point. :"> [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. [Jediphile] If you feel that way, then I fail to see why you're objecting to my criticism of Mical and Sion as love interests... Because i don't view things in the popular culture way nor, i would assume, do many male and female gamers. Sion didn't repulse me. But from a stereotypical view point, which i assume the devs were using since they did come up with Mical's way of speaking, i find it difficult to believe they would have cared about there being balance nor thought Sion would be a typical archetypical character female gamers would be able to see as appealing. i was explaining why i did not believe the devs threw the female Exile-Sion romance in at the last minute. [Jediphile] So Atris is also poorly done? *joke commences* Would i be flogged if i answered with a "yes"? *joke ends* The fact is all the romances were poorly done. None of them, ironically other than Sion's, had any resolution to them wherein Exile was able to say anything about her/his feelings for the NPC. [Jediphile] You can say it, but it still made no sense to me. Besides, what does that mean "you've been a presence in my mind"? Given that Sion has been hunting the Exile all through the plot, of course he has been a presence - you're constantly scared that he'll track you down and kill you, after all. It's a completely redundant comment to make, if you look at it in that context. She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. i find difficulty in seeing consistency in what you have said. Just being DS does not make a person incapable of feeling love. Yuthura spoke of that in KotOR. Anakin felt love for Padme even when he was DS. And Exile herself has done evil things so why should Sion's evil things remove the possibility she could love him? You yourself said love just happens. There need not be a reason for it. As far as Sion's emotions go, i cannot see why he isn't allowed his humanity just as every other character other than Nihilus (to an extent) is. He is the embodiment of pain. Those are very strong physical and emotional feelings. Sion to me seems quite aware of his predicament of being caught in Kreia's web and of his emotions surrounding that. He is conflicted, but not feelingless. He is said to be in constant pain, yet he endures through his willpower. He seems intuned with his inner conflicts and what those evoke in him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. [Jediphile] The Atton-Sion fight was cut. And in any event, I seem to recall that Atton is player-controlled during that fight and that he can win it, which also makes your point moot. i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* [Hekate] If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. [Jediphile] I don't follow. But that might be because I just don't believe in the Sion-Exile "relationship". What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. [Jediphile] Ah, but then you're doing with Sion precisely what you won't let me do for Atris - assigning different value to the relationship even though the outcome is the same in either event. If you're allowed to assign a deeper interpretation to the outcome of the confrontation with Sion, because you see romance in it that are not there for the male Exile, then is it not just as reasonable to assign a similarly deeper aspect to the male Exile's relationship with Atris, when we know that she loved him? Sion must be persuaded to die regardless of the Exile's gender - there is ultimately no difference. If you assign a different interpretation to Sion's death for the female Exile, then I'm just as justified in doing something similar for Atris in the male Exile's story. i don't think i evaluated them with a bias and differential. i hadn't questioned what significance lies in Atris' confrontation with male Exile if she loves him. i can clearly see the importance therein. What i was questioning is the asumption Sion's feelings for Exile are not as significant as Atris' feelings for Exile. And in exploring the differences between them, i stated Atris doesn't actually say she has feelings for him. Sion does actually say he has feelings for Exile. i didn't refute the fact Atris falls to the DS. What i refuted is attributing her loving male Exile to that fall since, as Sion has to die either way, so did Atris fall to the DS either way. [Jediphile] I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, [Jediphile] Of course he does. Atris is doing everything she can to hide her true feelings, whereas Sion longs openly for feelings that he as lost in his now undead state. That's not a relevant basis of comparison. So what i am hearing is: Atris is doing everything to hide her feelings so the game doesn't suffer from her not speaking of them and the player has no clear means of knowing she loves male Exile without going into the text file in the game data to see the notes therein that state she does not want Brianna to think/know she loves Exile, but Sion speaking of his feelings directly in-game hurts the game because it is difficult to see how he could have come to love her. i don't see Sion as undead, i see him as immortal as long as he doesn't lose his will to live. And i cannot concur with the assesment Sion does not have feelings. [Jediphile] Unlike Sion who tries to kill the Exile everytime they meet? What difference does that make to the fact Atris, who is supposed to have loved Exile for at least 10 years, decides she is going to kill him? Sion, as we are later told, has personal reasons for wanting to kill Exile. The two motivations and the proceeding understanding of their behaviour are significantly different. [Jediphile]Atris is DS. She does not need to kill the Exile to meet some silly Sith standard. Kreia manipulated her to do it, sure, but is Kreia Atris' master now? I think not. Atris sees herself as the master and continues to - there is no ritual involved. i was thinking more along the lines of when Bastial tells Revan on the Star Forge Malak knew she had to kill him in order for her to completely give herself over to the DS and let go of her past and all that. i felt Atris wanting to kill Exile would have likely stemmed from a similar inclination. [Jediphile] As for Sion, he has to die in just the same way regardless of your gender, so that is a non-factor, even if you did believe him to be sincere about his feelings, which I don't. Sion having to die is part of the plot. i don't see how that hurts the romance plot. In the argument against using a character's personal historical ties to Exile as a comparisson point you say if all characters had to have a tie to Exile than it would be boring and so on (which i agree with). So i am applying the same logic here that if all those whom Exile could romance have to survive for them to be meaningful is reducing the plot options and forcing their characters to be something they shouldn't be. Sion has to die because; with male Exile, he is an enemy to be defeated and the player never gets to see his other qualities so there is little else to see in him; with female Exile, Sion's depth get revealed and since the very nature of his existence depends on his using the Force and his willpower to remain alive, Exile getting him to let go of all of his pain makes him die. [Jediphile] It's like you're saying that the outcome is the same in Atris' case, so it's irrelevant, but it's not for Sion because you assign a value to the relationship even though you have to defeat in just the same way. Sorry, but that sounds like a double standard to me. i said if Sion having to die either way nullifies his worth, than Atris' worth should be nullified too since her outcome does not diverge based on Exile's sex. i was defending Sion and saying the dismissing must occur for both since the criteria was Sion dies regardless of Exile's sex therefore his love role is insignificant. i argued there is no difference in how Atris' fate turns out either regardless of Exile's sex. i don't like how i was in the position of defending my position and that then gets turned around to be seen as if i was the one who had originated that line of questioning. It feels acusatory and dismissive. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? [Jediphile] Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris for the male Exile, so that's not particularly compelling argument for the female Exile's story. Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile. Nor is it more compelling Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris only with male Exile. That is the whole point of the romance differences in game. With male Exile the player gets to see more details about Brianna, the player gets to hear extra lines about Atris, and the players gets to see Visas falls for Exile. With female Exile, the player gets to find out Sion is more than just baddie #2, the player gets to learn more about Mical and all he brings, and the player gets to learn more of Atton. And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? [Jediphile] The difference is that Atris' feelings have had the time to become twisted and perverse, whereas Sion's have not. Therefore he should logically be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are, and yet he tries to kill the Exile at every turn. He is newly in love, which should make him want to embrace the Exile, only he doesn't. Atris' love, however, has been twisted into something perverse for a decade, making it far more believable that it no longer manifests itself in the way that it logically should. The argument Sion himself is incapable of having feelings would make this new point impossible. He cannot both be someone who is not capable of feeling and someone who logically should be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are. We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. Even with ignoring that possibility though, the notion Sion's feelings had not had time to become twisted and perverse seems rather weak since Sion's perspectives and perceptions are themselves twisted, thus his feelings for Exile would naturally begin twisted and perverse. For Sion, who is ruled by pain and torment, being embraced and accepted would end him since his focus would be lost which = death, which is exactly what happens if female Exile reciprocates interest. It would make sense he has to fight his feelings for her, and even try to kill her, not just because of his duty to Kreia, but also out of self-preservation. He isn't suicidal. He wants to live and to have his life have meaning, as Zelean, Meelypie, and i were discussing in another thread <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [Hekate] He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. [Jediphile] Wrong. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." You cannot admit that Atris loved the male Exile but merely admired the female without reading that sentence in a different light. It may have been the same for both male and female Exile, I'm not sure, but it's inescapable that it does not carry the same interpretation for the male Exile that it did for the female. And obviously there is a great difference, since you can choose to let Atris live (and actually will with the above), whereas Sion must die in any event. It is the same line regardless of Exile's sex. Atris reacts the same way to Exile's statement regardless of Exile's sex. i still can't understand how if Atris' feelings for male Exile are only given voice by Atris in a cut-scene that did not include Exile, and as you pointed out she is trying to deny her feelings for him and intentionally not admitting them, than how could male Exile know she loves him? If he doesn't, that dialogue option cannot mean more for male Exile than for female Exile. And even if it can be argued he knew and he is refering to her loving him, that is quite plainly a reaction on his part that indicates he does not feel the same way for her. It is dismissive. Thus, there is no opportunity for Exile to reciprocate those feelings which means Sion's feelings can be responded to in kind by female Exile while Atris' cannot by male Exile. Even with this, it is still insisted on Sion's feelings are meaningless and irrelevant which i cannot understand when he is the only person in the whole game any incarnation of Exile can respond to in kind without Exile being passively neutral nor outright dismissive. That is significant. [Jediphile] Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Jediphile] Considering that Mical never became the Exile's apprentice, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. That it didn't happen is no basis for concluding that it cannot have been a problem. I can just as well conclude that they didn't deal with it simply because the problem never arose in the first place and so they never became aware of it. By the same token, dismissing Mical for having those feelings on the basis he was to be her padawan is then voided as well since it didn't happen and thus has no bearing on the conversation. [Hekate] Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. [Jediphile] That's a comment aimed at Atris dismissing the Exile's wound as a thing of the dark side out of hand, not of her emotions towards the Exile. Probably, but it never became relevant, since the Exile was, well, exiled and left. And besides, maybe Atris was good at hiding her emotions from them. Or they could have decided to let her deal with it on her own as a test of her character and only intervene if she began losing control. i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole. It is obvious Atris wasn't good at hiding her feelings as both Masters Vash and Zez-Kai Ell pointed out. [Jediphile] They would need for Atris to acknowledge the problem herself, first. You cannot help someone unless they first accept that they have a problem. Besides, this is just another example of the very arrogance that the masters have been guilty off at this time. They think everyone else is flawed, and that they are themselves - including Atris - infallible. There are such things as interventions. If a person isn't aware s/he is doing something wrong, than it needs to be brought to her/his attention. Just assuming Atris will figure it out is too dangerous for the Council to do. They may very well be arrogant, but they do not seem to have difficulty pointing out eachothers' flaws and weaknesses. [Jediphile] First of all, I still don't see why Revan was *obviously* DS during that meeting. My Revan was fairly close to LS mastery at that point, actually. Ok, i have to make it even more clear. Just as your Revan in that particular game you played was LS and near mastery, so a DS Revan in any other given game with near DS mastery would have been obviously DS to the Council. i was not saying Revan her/himself has to be a set DS alignment. [Jediphile] Anyway, the masters did explain it. 1. Sending a master along would be a beacon that Malak could track. They did not send one, because Bastila and Revan then had a better chance of slipping under the radar, while Malak was busy with all the more powerful jedi. And no, it's not easy to hide your presence, when you're a very powerful jedi. Yoda hid on Dagobah, because the cave where the dark side was strong (where Luke had his vision-battle with Vader) shielded his presence there. Apparently Sith are better at this, since Palpatine could hide under the nose of the order. Then again, they had no idea to look for him... i find that so very difficult to believe. A Jedi Master, or even a plain Jedi accompanying them should not have made them significantly easier to find. We're not talking about Yoda. We're talking about someone with experience and enough wisdom and stability whose job it is to keep Bastila from losing herself and to help Revan avoid falling to the DS. [Jediphile] 2. They send Bastila along, because she shared Revan's visions, and so if Revan was untrustworthy, they would at least still get the clues to where the starmaps were located and at least have a chance of finding the starforge that way. Obviously that concern must have outweighed the value of Bastila's battle meditation. My issue with it wasn't over Bastila being sent. They made it pretty clear in the game they had to be together. [Jediphile] It's in his past so obviously it stays with him. He has to deal with it continually, since the alternative is to suppress it. And the Exile's presence has probably opened the wound a bit. But he does not have a problem dealing with it, and seems to come to the Exile mostly because he knows s/he probably feels the same way. My point was it isn't something he has fully come to terms with nor dealt with. It does haunt him still, and by how he has changed from being an emotionally driven person to an emotion supressing person is how he simplifies. And i counter with he does have problems dealing with it. He dreams of it often, he thinks of it often, and it is the main issue surrounding his Jedification and what he speaks with Exile about. [Hekate] Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. [Jediphile] I don't see him being at odds with himself. He is quite open about where he stands here and what sort of responsibility he takes for his past. Being at odds with himself roots in his denial over Exile's responsibility for the events on Malachor V, and with his having to supress his emotions in order to maintain his veneer of calm. And as i stated in the above paragraph, he knows things logically he cannot come to accept emotionally. Thus he is at odds with himself. [Jediphile] Because that would make his own guilt pointless. Bao-Dur must accept that responsibility, because that is the only way his choices have lasting meaning. The alternative is that his actions had no significance, and that if he had not build the MSG, then someone else would have built it or something similar. He accepts responsibility, because it gives him control over the situation in the sense that all those terrible things would not have happened, if only he had made a different choice himself. How would his accepting Exile gave the order and thus carries that responsibility make his own role in having both created and then activated the MSG pointless? They both have responsibility for the events of Malachor V whether either of them admit it or not. [Jediphile] I don't entirely agree, since the only conclusion to your statements here is that you can control your emotions only by suppressing or denying them, and I do not believe that is true. I believe that you can acknowledge your emotions internally and yet choose not to respond to them outwardly. Otherwise it would be the same as saying that I'm suppressing my emotions, if someone insults me, and I choose not to go ballistic and yell at him for it. But I also have the option of just shaking my head (inwardly or otherwise) and thinking "what an idiot!", and then ignoring him because he's not worth the trouble. Is that suppression? i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. So, to have feelings and to aknowledge them but to not let oneself be controlled by them is to supress them. To deny one's feelings is not to aknowledge they are there and to go about things as if they weren't even when they are. When Bao-Dur is angry at Mandalore, he is obviously strained and feeling emotions, but rather than let them control him and dictate his actions, he supresses the intencity of his feelings and goes about conversing without getting into a blind rage. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. [Jediphile] Atton didn't leave the Sith, he escaped. He escaped of his own volition, meaning, he left the Sith and went to Nar Shadaa. [Jediphile] And his guilt and self-denial haunts him throughout the game. That's why Kreia can manipulate him with impunity. i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. [Jediphile] The past will always be a part of who you are at any given point in your life, and it must be reexamined on a continual basis, especially if there are dark episodes there. That's what Bao-Dur is doing. That is true. The past will always ba a part of who a person is and how that person sees him/herself. Though i maintain Bao-Dur's re-examination isn't as intelectual and removed from the emotional as is implied. [Jediphile] And that reason is simple: If Bao-Dur lets the Exile accept responsibility, then he will be admitting to himself that it really wasn't his fault, and that any choice he made at the time was pointless. That is more difficult for him to bear than it is to accept the responsibility for himself, it gives him control over the situation. His logic is that if he had not build the MSG, then none of it would have happened, and the guilt of that is easier to live with than the idea that he had no say in the matter and that his choices had no consequence. This is all fairly basic psychology, I think. As above, i don't see why their responsibility for Malachor V has to be mutually exclusive. They are both responsible. Bao-Dur can accept his role, it is only Exile's he cannot. He does not suddenly lose the power he has over the situation by aknowledging Exile's role. It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. [Jediphile] Bad for the plot, though, since it's not romance on a sound basis. i would say far better for the plot than a Jedi Master who is still furious with Exile for not loving her 10 years later... And who said the romance would be based on that anyway? i was pointing out things that would likely occur as a result of Exile and Bao-Dur getting involved. One would certainly assume they would gravitate into having a romantic relationship because of attraction rather than for having calculated the benefits. EDIT: had to cut some out, will resume when i figure out what went on... Edited May 19, 2006 by Hekate
Hekate Posted May 19, 2006 Posted May 19, 2006 continued from last post, still don't know what went wrong [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. [Jediphile] No, she did not make herself the Exile's servant. She made herself a servant to the greater cause of destroying Nihilus. Not the same at all. i guess we have wildly different views on what "My life for yours" means. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. [Jediphile] Yes, but then KotOR2 takes place over the course of an entire year or more, and there are a lot of experiences during that time. And Visas seems to put her trauma behind her with astounding strength. i didn't see it. i saw she was single-mindedly focused on her task of bringing Exile to Nihilus. i heard her speak submissively to Exile. i heard her defer to Exile's will other than with the dancing for Vogga thing. i heard her voice concern and/or disagreement but back down at Exile's protest. Those are acts of submission. Not of equalitly. [Jediphile] But I don't agree with you that she is fully aware in the cutscene you mention above. Knowing Visas, it seems more likely that she is a witness to her own actions more than anything. She does not take a shot at Nihilus - she states openly whether there is concern. Given how much she is broken upon Nihilus' will at the time, she never would have dared to challenge of question his authority. You are speaking of her being in a dissociative state, i think. And i agreed with that. But i do believe she was quite lucid insofar as her being aware of what she was doing goes. i think it is possible she wasn't taking a shot at Nihilus by asking if he is affraid of Exile. It may very well be she wasn't even really consciously thinking of what she was saying and just reacting. The reason i don't think full dissociation is the case though is she seems to be completely in control of her faculties and she seems to be conditioned to know what he will get angry over and it seemed to me as if she added that fear dig to get a shot in. Again, it doesn't mean i am necessarily right. However, if she is dissociative to that degree with Nihilus, it makes little sense she would suddenly be able to function at full cognitive functioning immediately once she left his presence. And the whole notion of her being broken upon Nihilus' will in conjunction with her statement she has nothing to offer Exile, indicate to me she is in a submissive mindframe with Exile from their very first encounter on. [Jediphile] Well, those are not nice people... She meant everyone in the cantina. Not just Vaklu's soldiers. Exile has the option of telling her not to harm innocents. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. [Jediphile] What?!? Are we playing the same game? Visas absolutely *refuses* to take the Exile to Nihilus until s/he is powerful enough to defeat him in the VERY FIRST conversation you ever have with her Visas: "Even if I could lead you to my Master, I cannot permit you to find him... until you are ready.{Quiet}If I bring you before my Master, untested, without your potential realized, then you will be lost to me. {Beat}And I cannot allow that to happen.It would be as if one brought fire to a paradise valley, shattered a cavern of rare crystal... or blinded a painter.It is a choice that can be made by neither one of us.Do not be so quick to meet that which you do not understand. Use the time you have now, to grow, to train, and to strengthen yourself. {Firm, slight passion}I cannot - I will not. I would die first, and gladly, to preserve you, untouched, unharmed. Now that I have found you, I cannot sacrifice what I have found.You will meet my master. It is inevitable, I have... seen it. And when you stand before him, and realize what you face, you must be prepared. Until then, I must protect you, help you, until you are ready. There is a... a greatness in you, a greatness that does not stem from the Force. It stems from who you are. And if my Master does not understand you, cannot see you, then perhaps there is hope for us all. But if you seek to survive, then you must understand why this is so." Yes, she does state Exile could potentially defeat Nihilus when s/he is ready. She also suggests Nihilus could be defeated by Exile depending on one's interpretation of the sentence in bold. But her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus in a state wherein Exile is either strong enough to defeat Nihilus or to be good feeding for Nihilus. So her intention at the begining of bringing Exile to Nihilous as being her priority is true. i felt, based on how she speaks throughout the rest of the game up until the point post the Jedi Masters' deaths, her goal behind bringing Exile to Nihilus was either to just do her job and bring him something of substance to eat, or to exploit Exile's unique Force wounding properties and through their confrontation, or by some other method thereafter, have Exile kill the Force. Since there are apparent contradictions in Visas' views, priorities, and how she feels about life, i tend to see as her being conflicted as she grows and learns to see some value in life for its own sake. But the whole point of all this is she is going to get Exile to Nihilus when she feels Exile is ready no matter what. In other conversations she states she hates all life and came to view life the same way Nihilus did when he made her see. In this paragraph, she states Exile is important to her for the potential Exile has by virtue of the unique quality s/he has of being a Force wound. It is Exile's nothingness she sees as precious, rare, and as having the ability to destroy everything. She is not willing to let that go to waste by Exile confronting Nihilus too soon. But the very line you put into bold type can be interpreted a different way: as her saying there is the chance Exile will be able to destroy the Force since Exile would have to defeat Nihilus in order to do so. The more Exile takes power from those Exile kills, the stronger Exile gets, the bigger the wound in the Force and the more devastating impact it will have on the galaxy. She sees all life as ugly and that it should all just die. In later conversations she tells Exile she came to see life as something abhorent when Nihilus forced her to look with her own eyes upon the devastation. So if that is her governing philosophy and world view, it is just as possible she sees hope not in stopping Nihilus, rather in what defeating Nihilus will add to Exile's destructive potential. But i will say, based solely on this conversation, it seems Visas does want Nihilus destroyed. [Jediphile] I had similar concerns playing the game, but it doesn't come to pass, so apparently Visas was sincere all along. But her priority was to get Exile to Nihilus when s/he was ready. Therefore i find it difficult to see how her loyalty to that cause could have been in doubt. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. [Jediphile] She talks of hope in the very first conversation you ever have with her. I don't see her as quite as traumatized as you do. Sure she has been through a lot, but Visas is a complex and strong person. She may have suffered under Nihilus, but she has also gained insight far beyond what her apparently young age would suggest. That's why she's able to take it all in stride. She does speak of there being "hope for us all" if Nihilus cannot see nor understand Exile. Which is exactly what happened on the Ravager when Nihilus tried to eat Exile. Nihilus got weakened because Nihilus did not understand Exile is a wound in the Force. Now the question is if that would be hope to her that Exile defeated the monster who was eating the energy released from killing Force sentives upon their deaths, or is it hope to her that Exile would then have siphoned Nihilous' powers too and would thus be even stronger and better able to destroy the Force, or hope in the sense of saving the galaxy? i'm not going to discuss trauma in this way anymore for now. i have to think on it and sort my feelings on it. [Jediphile] Atton never sees himself as worthy, Disciple submits completely to the Exile, and Brianna just loves the shadow of her dead father. Any of those healthy? See above for Mical. i'm am still not certain if Brianna seeing the similarity btween her father's and Exile's pain is her transfering her feelings for her father onto Exile. As for Atton, i can't agree with the simplified explanation of Atton not seeing himself as being worthy being the only reason he hasn't told Exile he loves her. But i'll have to respond to the whole Atton issue yet another time since i am getting too tired now. [Jediphile] No. I maintain that Visas is far more mature and strong than any of the alternate love interests. Ok. But i do wonder how you are qualifying maturity in this respect. [Jediphile] If she does not love Exile, then Exile just becomes a weapon she can use to fight Nihilus with. Does that make the plot better or worse? i do not agree with the assessment of if Visas doesn't love Exile than she is only using Exile as a weapon. Surely her and Exile could have developped a friendship in the interim regardless of what sex Exile is. [Jediphile] Atton was a torturer, not a warrior. And if it's just because of the bond, then why does only he "blank" out when he attacks. The others do it because they must stand together, but Atton seems to do it even against his own will. Atton was a soldier before he was trained as an assassin. Atton blanks out because of how he was trained to deal with such things and because of the conflicting feelings he has over it. The others do not stand together only because they must. Brianna had a very similar reaction to Atton wherein she states she is surprised she reacted as she did at attacking an innocent. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. [Jediphile] And that she doesn't offer herself tells me that she wants to go on living. But she is willing to accept death, if that is what it takes to defeat Nihilus. Visas doesn't hate life, she is just scared that there is no hope for it, and so she is reluctant to hold out hope for it. She is willing to accept death because Exile tells her to which is his, in essence, telling her he does not value her since Nihilus can be defeated without sacrificing Visas. She accepts this and thus commits suicide. The option he has to just walk away from her as she is lying dying emphasizes this. Visas clearly stated she did hate life. As she spends time with Exile and the others, her perspective changes. But the fact she is willing to kill herself eventhough she has come to see value in life indicates she is subserviant to male Exile to the extent of putting that servitude ahead of her own life. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. [Jediphile] He has a complete infiriority-complex towars the Exile throughout the game. He loves her, but hates himself far too much to ever reach out for her. And he doesn't love her as much as he loves the concept of redemption that she represents to him. Not a good basis. i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. He even counted himself as Sith for a while and uses that as a comparisson to the difference he sees between them. He asks Exile how can s/he live with her/himself. Atton changes throughout the game. Either he reverts to his Sith tendencies and becomes a conscienceless monster (killing Mical because he thinks she likes Mical more), or he grows and becomes a better person who is capable of self-sacrifice and doing good for good's sake and not for a reward. Meanwhile, he faces many of his demons and gains internal strength and stability. Exile, on the other hand, is sitll in denial and still stuck in the same mess she was in to begin with. Atton outgrows Exile and he doesn't base his self-worth on if she loves him in return or not. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. [Jediphile] He still submits entirely to her will, and far more than Visas could ever hope to match, since he submits to the Exile directly, while Visas submits herself to a greater cause. Mical may disagree with the Exile on occasion, but he doesn't seem to have much personality or sense of self. How and when does he submit entirely to her will? And what does Visas' greater cause have to do with her restraining herself from slaughtering innocents in a cantina at Exile's command? The most i've seen him do is back off when she tells him to. But he certainly does defy her. He asks her for permission to watch the hololog of her exile, she can say no, but he does anyway. He disagrees with her on her take on her exile no matter how strongly she diverges in her opinion. His views don't change based on hers, he holds firm in his beliefs. She even loses influence with him if she says something insulting and if she puts down the Republic. His personality is constant throughout the game, his sense of self does not waver. i am at a loss to seeing how you see it so differently. [Jediphile] No, he doesn't. Bao-Dur is fine. Why does he need fire under him? If Bao-Dur can make it alone in his life, then more power to him. Because he lives by supressing his emotions as a constant. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. [Jediphile] I'm not sure I understand... Exile isn't moved by battle, bloodshed, stuff like that. As Exile can explain to Bao-Dur; battle is impersonal, s/he separates her/himself from the frenzy. Thus it would take something Exile cannot control and something that is unfamiliar and unsetling to shake Exile up and maybe be able to get Exile to start facing reality. [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Jediphile] Visas is far more willing to disagree with the exile and criticize him/her than Atton, who is more of a confused person than a complicated one. Visas is complicated, but Atton is not, he "just" has a dark past that he cannot put behind him. i don't see that either. i see Atton voicing complaints and concerns. He tells Exile off when Exile goes DS. He complains about Exile's choices. He points out things he doesn't agree with. In what way is Visas more willing to criticize Exile than Atton is? Visas is indeed complicated, and so is Atton. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. [Jediphile] The MSG had no impact on the force. It's just a weapon, albeit a fairly nasty one. The impact on the force was the Exile's doing. Otherwise the whole point of the force wound becomes irrelevant to the story. The MSG was just the catalyst that made the exile cut himself off from the force and cause the wound. The power spot created on Malachor V required death and destruction on such a large scale it would wound the Force. Similar to how Telos created an echo as well. Only the scale of Malachor V's was larger since it destroyed the planet and was not limited to its surface. The Masters spoke of it, as did Mical, and Kreia. They also say Exile's rejecting the Force so absolutely caused Exile to become a wound in the Force as well. And only in Exile reconnecting to the Force, will it grow. As i have stated, there are alot of contradictions in the game about the Force wound thing, so i cannot guarantee this understanding is acurate. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. [Jediphile] And yet Bao-Dur accepts responsibility for both, for the reasons I've already stated. No, he doesn't see himself as having given the order to use it. He keeps those facts distinct. It is only with the giving the order part that he doesn't assign responsibility where it lies; with Exile. Unless you were saying he accpets his responsibillities in which case we agree on that. And that goes back to the sacrosanct point. [Jediphile] Well, you already know that I see Exile and Nihilus as opposite sides of the same wound, so Visas seeing the "other" is not so unlikely to me. What i was getting at is she didn't see an inherent hope in Exile's wound. She saw the wound and then the potential of that wound being able to destroy the Force. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, [Jediphile] You said, "they lost a huge slew of Jedi." That suggests rather a lot. Alot is different than most. "Huge slew" was redundant however. [Jediphile] For the life of me I cannot understand the logic here. Yes, I realise that Mical says it, but that still doesn't mean that it makes any sense. Revan's jedi were mostly *THE YOUNGER JEDI* We hear again and again of the older jedi losing their padawans to Revan's cause. THOSE ARE PADAWANS AND NOT TEACHERS. The only thing anyone has ever said to suggest that teachers left is Mical's one statement that nobody was left to teach him. I will take the repeated statements to the contrary of everyone else talking on the subject over just Mical's any day. Fine, do so. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. [Jediphile] How so? The older jedi and masters lost the majority of their padawans, while the younglings lost some teachers. The only logical conclusion I can reach from following that is that there were more teachers than needed. Where did it state the majority of the older Jedi and Jedi Masters lost their padawans? When i think of it in terms of population pyramids, there is the smaller number of Masters at the top. The population base increases as the age of the Jedi decreases. The majority of the population per sector would be at the bottom with younglings since many are not accepted to further their training past the youngling or apprentice stage. Now the Exar Kun War drastically decreased the Jedi numbers. So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. Yes, the older Jedi did lose some padawans, but i think number wise, there would be more younglings left without teachers than there were Masters without padawans. Also, i have trouble believing padawans who were not yet ready for their trials would have been too likely to go off to war. They wouldn't seem to be proficient enough as not-even-Jedi to be out there fighting wars. It is sorta like cadets fighting along side soldiers. At least that is my understanding of it. [Jediphile] And I'm not allowed to question that factor? I didn't even take it out of context, you know... Question away. i find that to be a rather cheeky question though since you in your last post use the personal tie argument to support Atris vs Sion. i was reacting to the acusation i did not see worth in the characters who did not have such ties rather than to questioning the worth of the personal ties factor. i stated myself it is a dubious point for one to be considered more significant on that basis alone, although personal ties are significant.
Dhampyre Posted May 19, 2006 Author Posted May 19, 2006 (edited) [Jediphile, May 19 2006, 02:17 AM] Actually, the Atris vs. Handmaiden fight is not cut content - it is there in the game if you play male Exile. What was cut from that scene, however, was Brianna fighting her sisters, but that too will be restored in the TSLRP, apparently with the option to defeat them in non-lethal combat, which one of the sound-files seems to point to. Actually bro, The Atris-Handmaiden fight we got to see in the game as male exile is different from the one originally concieved to be in the game. Much like the cut Atton-Sion, We had a Handmaiden-Atris fight to the death which was later cut like the Atton-Sion scene but unlike the Atton-Sion scene, We got another version of Atris-Handmaiden where Handmaiden loses and gets saved by us. [Jediphile, May 19 2006, 02:17 AM] To be honest, I'm actually glad they dropped that idea. It didn't make much sense to me that Atris would take over all of Kreia's goals just like that. I do regret that she did not become a party member to replace Kreia. That would have been so cool. No arguement there, i was merely stating a related fact along the cut-content topic. [Dhampyre @ May 18 2006, 08:12 PM]Anyway, back me up here guys? [Jediphile, May 19 2006, 02:17 AM]Have I not done so even in your absence and without being asked? You have most certainly bro and i thank you. (w00t) ------------ Hekate sorry for the harshness of my previous post, had a bad day, forgiveness. [Hekate, May 19 2006, 06:56 PM] i think they count as love interests because they are seen as having feelings for the protagonist. Without getting hung up on the details, since they are important figures in the story, how they feel matters. Yes but neither the male exile nor the female exile display any particular affection for Atris/Sion, it is one sided in both cases. All i am saying is thet with Atris we have a deeper understanding of why and how. With Sion its "You made me the way i am.... You took my master from me, i hate you, i love you". Bam Wham Thank you mam. Doesn't sound like a great story. [Hekate, May 19 2006, 06:56 PM] You don't add info on how Atton's romance option is good when you speak of Visas' romance, nor do you speak of Mical's merrits when you are depicting Brianna's, do you? *Hekate is unhappy * I didn't say they were bad but compared to the male exile romantic stories, its not as interesting. Atton's is good but again its based on infatuation. Atton is attracted to both the male and female exile due to the fact that he/she is able to go on living without letting the burden of so many deaths weigh him down. Don't forget the exile has taken many many more lives than Atton, and Atton took a fair share of Jedi Lives as well. The female exile story only modifies Atton's infatuation into lust and eventually love. Mical on the other hand is dull as a character and his love story is pretty dull too. "I didn't have anyone to train me so i'll just sit here in this monster infested enclave and hint that i have ties to the republic initially and then all else about that is forgotten". [Jediphile] The Atton-Sion fight was cut. And in any event, I seem to recall that Atton is player-controlled during that fight and that he can win it, which also makes your point moot. [Hekate] i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* Atton was player controlled in the cantina on Narr-Shadda as well while fighting the twin-suns. When the exile goes to Jekk Jekk Tar. So yes, it is completely possible. [Hekate] What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. Err?!?!? What? [Hekate]What difference does that make to the fact Atris, who is supposed to have loved Exile for at least 10 years, decides she is going to kill him? Sion, as we are later told, has personal reasons for wanting to kill Exile. The two motivations and the proceeding understanding of their behaviour are significantly different. That is exactly my point. They are both nuts and love the exile who doesn't love them. Repeating myself for the tenth time, Atris's version is done with a better story, Sion's isn't. [Hekate] i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole I beg to differ. That only tells us that the jedi masters knew of Atris's feelings, it doesn't mean exile knew of her feelings. No plot holes here. Move along. [Hekate] i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. Atton is not in self-denial but he definately does feel guilty for what he has done. He doesn't trust anyone and has a good sense of who can be reliable and who can't. However that stands with both male exile and female exile. I don't see how this is being used to debate which exile is better? [Hekate]i was pointing out things that would likely occur as a result of Exile and Bao-Dur getting involved. One would certainly assume they would gravitate into having a romantic relationship because of attraction rather than for having calculated the benefits. At the end of the day IT WAS cut out. Lets not play with Ifs and Buts. Bao-Dur is NOT a romantic interest in the game period (male or female exile) it may have been originally concieved for him to be but it was cut out because of the already extremely long list of romantic releationships attributed with the exile. It was swapped for the much better and intellectually sound relationship of war veterans. Even female exile does NOT have any romantic links with Bao-Dur, if that is forced into the relationship it ruins it. For that reason and to avoid any confusion Male Exile makes a better choice. And finally on a lighter note, have any of you noticed a pattern here? Hekate Quotes = Red, Jediphile Quotes = Blue and apparently My Quotes = Cyan. I protest! Keeping in sync with Star Wars and the Force i insist my Quotes color be changed to Gray! Edited May 19, 2006 by Dhampyre
Jediphile Posted May 19, 2006 Posted May 19, 2006 [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] *** Scathing sarcasm alert! ... Warning! Warning! Rhetoric flailling wildly!! *** You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Why is it that if Visas is subserviant to Exile, she has to do everything s/he tells her to? Because that's what the word means: "adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Brianna: "you did not have feelings for her... did you?" Exile: whatever incarnation of "no" If he did, that would be a lie. Generally, honesty would be the best way to begin a relationship, i would think Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]*sigh* In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Vrook has a low opinion of Exile. Master Kavar did not, nor did Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Vandar, and Atris. You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] No, it would be like saying you admire Ghandi for his intelect. Something he naturally possesses and cannot be altered through working on it. How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i used "hot" in the slang definition meaning: attractive, sexy, good looking... Not "hot" as in passionate, warm, friendly.... Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. You avoided this in your last post, so let me bring it up again. Early on we have the scene with one handmaiden sister talking to Atris about the male exile, which is different from the female exile: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile, but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i find difficulty in seeing consistency in what you have said. Just being DS does not make a person incapable of feeling love. Yuthura spoke of that in KotOR. Anakin felt love for Padme even when he was DS. But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* As I understand it, you can play him and then either defeat or lose to Sion. If you lose, Atton dies. If you win, Atton lives. But I could very easily be mistaken. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] The argument Sion himself is incapable of having feelings would make this new point impossible. He cannot both be someone who is not capable of feeling and someone who logically should be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are. Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Even with ignoring that possibility though, the notion Sion's feelings had not had time to become twisted and perverse seems rather weak since Sion's perspectives and perceptions are themselves twisted, thus his feelings for Exile would naturally begin twisted and perverse. Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] By the same token, dismissing Mical for having those feelings on the basis he was to be her padawan is then voided as well since it didn't happen and thus has no bearing on the conversation. That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole. It is obvious Atris wasn't good at hiding her feelings as both Masters Vash and Zez-Kai Ell pointed out. Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] There are such things as interventions. If a person isn't aware s/he is doing something wrong, than it needs to be brought to her/his attention. Just assuming Atris will figure it out is too dangerous for the Council to do. They may very well be arrogant, but they do not seem to have difficulty pointing out eachothers' flaws and weaknesses. You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]He escaped of his own volition, meaning, he left the Sith and went to Nar Shadaa. He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]As above, i don't see why their responsibility for Malachor V has to be mutually exclusive. They are both responsible. Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]Bao-Dur can accept his role, it is only Exile's he cannot. He does not suddenly lose the power he has over the situation by aknowledging Exile's role. Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i guess we have wildly different views on what "My life for yours" means. In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i didn't see it. i saw she was single-mindedly focused on her task of bringing Exile to Nihilus. i heard her speak submissively to Exile. i heard her defer to Exile's will other than with the dancing for Vogga thing. i heard her voice concern and/or disagreement but back down at Exile's protest. Those are acts of submission. Not of equalitly. And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, she does state Exile could potentially defeat Nihilus when s/he is ready. She also suggests Nihilus could be defeated by Exile depending on one's interpretation of the sentence in bold. But her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus in a state wherein Exile is either strong enough to defeat Nihilus or to be good feeding for Nihilus. That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] In other conversations she states she hates all life and came to view life the same way Nihilus did when he made her see. In this paragraph, she states Exile is important to her for the potential Exile has by virtue of the unique quality s/he has of being a Force wound. Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]It is Exile's nothingness she sees as precious, rare, and as having the ability to destroy everything. She is not willing to let that go to waste by Exile confronting Nihilus too soon. But the very line you put into bold type can be interpreted a different way: as her saying there is the chance Exile will be able to destroy the Force since Exile would have to defeat Nihilus in order to do so. That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] She is willing to accept death because Exile tells her to which is his, in essence, telling her he does not value her since Nihilus can be defeated without sacrificing Visas. She accepts this and thus commits suicide. The option he has to just walk away from her as she is lying dying emphasizes this. You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Visas clearly stated she did hate life. As she spends time with Exile and the others, her perspective changes. But the fact she is willing to kill herself eventhough she has come to see value in life indicates she is subserviant to male Exile to the extent of putting that servitude ahead of her own life. To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? And again, no, I do not agree. She is not subservient to the exile. She is submitting herself to the needs demanded by her cause of destroying Nihilus, not the exile. That she must therefore follow the exile's will on occasion is just a side-effect. And as we have already established, she certainly does not blindly obey. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Where did it state the majority of the older Jedi and Jedi Masters lost their padawans? When i think of it in terms of population pyramids, there is the smaller number of Masters at the top. The population base increases as the age of the Jedi decreases. The majority of the population per sector would be at the bottom with younglings since many are not accepted to further their training past the youngling or apprentice stage. Now the Exar Kun War drastically decreased the Jedi numbers. I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two. But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. All we hear about it is how all the young jedi who had probably just become knights or were still padawans were the ones to leave. Those are not teachers. The only one who ever suggests that is Mical, and he is just one person. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] Yes, the older Jedi did lose some padawans, but i think number wise, there would be more younglings left without teachers than there were Masters without padawans. Also, i have trouble believing padawans who were not yet ready for their trials would have been too likely to go off to war. They wouldn't seem to be proficient enough as not-even-Jedi to be out there fighting wars. It is sorta like cadets fighting along side soldiers. At least that is my understanding of it. Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Musopticon? Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 *claps one hand* What is wrong with you people? It's not that I can't respect devotion to a cause, but this is an internet forum for games. I'd start questioning my priorities if I wrote essays of over 4000(!) words on space opera-themed action roleplaying games. I mean, really really look for help. This page only already amounts to over 50 pages of text in MS Word. Don't you have anything better to do? Like, doing anything else than slowly boiling in your overpowering nerdiness. Like making the world prosper, since you could topple mountains with the effort spent here. In all the years I've spent in the net, I've yet to see this much effort spent on anything. No, not even the genetic "discussion" in Stormfront or the discussion over the role of Christ in christianity on Chick boards was this long-winded and heavy. Are you getting somehting out of this? Must be somehting profound since you seem to be willing to sacrifice some much time to it. God damn. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
Jediphile Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 *claps one hand* What is wrong with you people? It's not that I can't respect devotion to a cause, but this is an internet forum for games. I'd start questioning my priorities if I wrote essays of over 4000(!) words on space opera-themed action roleplaying games. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's presuming that "essays of voer 4000 words" is a major undertaking. It may be for you, but it would seem it is not for neither Hekate nor myself, since we are able to post so many lengthy posts in such a short time. I mean, really really look for help. This page only already amounts to over 50 pages of text in MS Word. Don't you have anything better to do? Like, doing anything else than slowly boiling in your overpowering nerdiness. Like making the world prosper, since you could topple mountains with the effort spent here. In all the years I've spent in the net, I've yet to see this much effort spent on anything. No, not even the genetic "discussion" in Stormfront or the discussion over the role of Christ in christianity on Chick boards was this long-winded and heavy. Are you getting somehting out of this? Must be somehting profound since you seem to be willing to sacrifice some much time to it. God damn. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... Besides, who is more the foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him? Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Musopticon? Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 (edited) 1.Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... 2.Besides, who is more the foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. 2. That aforism has absolutely nothing to do with this, but since you asked; think you can find the most foolish by slowly going down this page from the top and looking at the members who posted the most. See, wasn't that easy? Now go outside and run naked in the rain, because anything is more owrthwhile than the diatribe you write. I am serious. You are going above and beyond the definition of fanboy. Edited May 20, 2006 by Musopticon? kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
Jediphile Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 1.Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... 2.Besides, who is more the foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right - that's why I asked a question instead of blowing my top off... 2. That aforism has absolutely nothing to do with this, but since you asked; think you can find the most foolish by slowly going down this page from the top and looking at the members who posted the most. See, wasn't that easy? Now go outside and run naked in the rain, because anything is more owrthwhile than the diatribe you write. I am serious. You are going above and beyond the definition of fanboy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now Anyway, since it's quite apparent to me that you're either unwilling or unable to participate in a constructive discussion, I shall take your advice and not listen to any more of your pointless postings [hits the "ignore" button] Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Musopticon? Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 I was worried for you at first, but now that's turned to just pity. My intention was never to insult, only to make a jab so you might climb up the chasm you've fallen. I see now that you like being down there and help's taken as offence. Oh well, to each his own. I hope you like being pickled in your own pettyness. Dudes, I so could have insulted 'Phile for being a jerkface, since he can't see my posts any longer. But I had the willpower to resist. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
DAWUSS Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 Hey, it makes for stimulating conversation DAWUSS Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard.
Musopticon? Posted May 20, 2006 Posted May 20, 2006 kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
Hekate Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 *claps one hand* What is wrong with you people? It's not that I can't respect devotion to a cause, but this is an internet forum for games. I'd start questioning my priorities if I wrote essays of over 4000(!) words on space opera-themed action roleplaying games. I mean, really really look for help. This page only already amounts to over 50 pages of text in MS Word. Don't you have anything better to do? Like, doing anything else than slowly boiling in your overpowering nerdiness. Like making the world prosper, since you could topple mountains with the effort spent here.In all the years I've spent in the net, I've yet to see this much effort spent on anything. No, not even the genetic "discussion" in Stormfront or the discussion over the role of Christ in christianity on Chick boards was this long-winded and heavy. Are you getting somehting out of this? Must be somehting profound since you seem to be willing to sacrifice some much time to it. God damn. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In the public transit chat forums, I've seen threads with hundreds of pages dedicated to speaking of bus sightings. Yes, bus sightings. While i do understand your point, guess i'll explain my view. To me, discussing this stuff is like getting into the socially relevant issues you were refering to, except it is in a forum that puts enough emotional distance between reality and imagination so it is easier to talk about. This gives me a hard enough time as it is. I can't handle debating intence issues i feel strongly about with people who adamantly disagree with me. We can't even come to concensus here on the point if Visas is subserviant to Exile or whether Atton is complex. i certainly don't want to get into debates about religion, genetics, and such with people who cannot understand my views nor with those i find to be, sounds bad saying it but it is how i see it, wrong. And given that people see things so varried and people generally stick to their views and beliefs without having much room for seeing others' views, i don't think mountains could be moved with the amount of effort put into our discussions. Would be nice though. And it would make it worth it to get into it if it actually presented the chance things could change for the better. The other thing is, i'd reckon about 30%-40% of what is posted is repeating others' quotes so the conversation can be properly followed which reduces the actual fresh material post length. But i'm curious, why does our discussing these things in this detail bother you? [Dhampyre] Hekate sorry for the harshness of my previous post, had a bad day, forgiveness. :'( Thank you. i appreciate it greatly. Forgive me too? [Dhampyre] Yes but neither the male exile nor the female exile display any particular affection for Atris/Sion, it is one sided in both cases. All i am saying is thet with Atris we have a deeper understanding of why and how. With Sion its "You made me the way i am.... You took my master from me, i hate you, i love you". Bam Wham Thank you mam. Doesn't sound like a great story. [moved from lower for cohesiveness:]That is exactly my point. They are both nuts and love the exile who doesn't love them. Repeating myself for the tenth time, Atris's version is done with a better story, Sion's isn't. The 2 places we disagree on are: 1) the notion of Atris' feelings provide a deeper understanding of how and why she feels as she does, and 2) Sion's feelings are as left hanging in the ether as is indicated. i can accept Atris displacing her feelings about morality and self-worth onto another person since she is conflicted, and that person just happens to be Exile. i can also understand Atris loves Exile just because. But i don't have a clue why Atris feels that way about Exile (hero worship) nor what she saw in Exile for her to have loved him. But i don't use that as a basis to discredit her worth. They are both fine because the game suggests she loves Exile, and stated directly she saw Exile as her hero. Now for Sion. i just replayed the female Exile-Sion confrontation on Malachor V. And there is quite alot more to it than i remembered. Getting it down was a pain (unfortunately i'm stuck with an Xbox version), but i got some important quotes to make my argument. In the bigger picture, he tells her he cares about her and he doesn't want her to suffer as he has at the hands of Kreia. But it isn't just physically, he means it from psychological, emotional, and spiritual (as in karma, soul, etc) perspectives. The reason i say this is because he tells her to go back to Malachor V's surface and die there whole rather than for her to be warped by Kreia. He later mentions something similar again about her remaining herself is more important than her physical life. Now i'll walk through their conversation and fill the the non-quoted gaps to give direction: Sion enters Sion: "You should not have come to Malachor. She will break you, your mind, your body... you will be lost. Exile: "Why are you telling me this?" Sion "You and her are alike... yet different in all ways that matter. And I hate you as I hate her. I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." "I hate you because you are beautiful to me and in that weakness lies death." - here he is saying he hates the effect she has on him, that he finds her beautiful (i understand it to be meant in the depth and soul type of ways as opposed to the physical beauty way), and the result of her being able to affect him leaves him vulnerable to dying because of it since his will to chanel the DS and to fulfill his mandate of doing the pain thing is what holds him together. Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." Sion: "Then turn from this place. Do not go to her. Preserve yourself." "I cannot, if you pass you shall not return as you are now." Sion: "If you go before her, you will be broken. If killing you will spare you what lies ahead, then kill you I must." After Exile and Sion fight and Exile wins Exile: "I am stronger than you expected - and I am stronger than Kreia expects. Let me confront her and we shall see" Sion: "There is truth in your words but there is nothing left for me except my master." Exile mentions Kreia told her he his held together by the strength of his will Sion: "I am held together by the DS ... I fight because it is the power that the Force fills me with. To survive, to inflict pain on others ..." "I will not fall, I cannot die" - so his raison d'etre, why he is alive at all, is for him to be pain. Not only in the form of his physical pain, but also to bring that pain to others. As Kreia is betrayal. As Nihilus is hunger. That is why he commits evil acts; he basically is scripted to since it is the purpose he fulfills. He sees the possibility for more in female Exile, hence she poses a threat to his existence, and that is another reason why he wants to kill her. As Jediphile said, he is twisted and perverse. i expand on that by adding he is torn and conflicted over his very existence and if he even wants to go on, but he also isn't suicidal and has a will to live. But to live means to be a slave to pain and to wanting to kill the only one he can see beauty in. The DS gives him his purpose of surviving and not of just inflicting pain on others. That he has come to see an other as something more than someone to inflict pain on is what compels him and disturbs him. Exile tells him to let go of the Force and in doing so he will free himself Sion: "It is not possible to walk away from such things unscarred. To keep living when the universe dies around you" "The Force is who I am - the DS fills me. It is what I am" Exile: "It is possible to live without the Force. And to die without it." - Sion has a similar view and understanding as Visas. Not the same obviously, but i mean Sion has experienced large scale death and had Malachor V's wound effect him, and as Revan had planned, those who did not turn from the Force as Exile did, got twisted and damaged by it wherein they were inundated and indoctrinated by the alteration of their natures to DS Force users. And without him chanelling the DS Force, he will cease to be. He can see how twisted it is, he knows he is bound by it, and he hates it. And he hates how it makes him feel she had been able to let go of it. Exile: "What kind of life have you lived with the Force flowing through you? Was it worth it?" Sion: "It... it was not. No matter how many I have killed... there was no end to the pain... The blades the Force tore through my flesh. Kreia, she will try to break you, to teach you how far someone can fall. Her weakness is you. As you were mine. I am glad to leave this place... at last." So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. [Dhampyre] I didn't say they were bad but compared to the male exile romantic stories, its not as interesting. Atton's is good but again its based on infatuation. Atton is attracted to both the male and female exile due to the fact that he/she is able to go on living without letting the burden of so many deaths weigh him down. Don't forget the exile has taken many many more lives than Atton, and Atton took a fair share of Jedi Lives as well.The female exile story only modifies Atton's infatuation into lust and eventually love. To defend Atton, i'll write down his death scene: "You're alive... did I save you yet? You're eyes. That bad, huh? Always was ugly now the outside matches. Was waiting for this but's not fair. I let you down... was supposed to save you. Was tired of living anyway... too many deaths... Never told you, lied to you. I don't want you to see me like this. I don't want to die infront of you... can't bear it.... Loved you from the moment I first saw you. Thought you were a dream. Meant every word. Tried to play it off as a joke... wasn't funny. Hurts when I laugh... hurts. You saved me. Joke's on me. Heh heh. Hurts when I laugh... hurts" So, assuming Atton wasn't lying as he was dying and such, he loved her and was not just infatuated by her, nor did he only lust after her. He wanted to save her, and he states she saved him which would be LS and assuming he means she saved his soul. When he says he meant every word, i would assume he is refering to when he and Exile spoke, both the good things and the bad things. This could, however, be refering to cut content. It seems to me, from this dialogue and from what he says in-game, he didn't envy Exile's ability to kill without repercusion nor remorse. It seems more akin to wanted to become a better person. And that is why i said he left the Sith because of what the Jedi who opened her mind to him had shown him and evoked in him rather than he ran to escape Revan doing horrible things to him. Atton also says, when he speaks of his past with Exile, it took time for him to not be able to do the Sith assassin thing anymore and he decided to leave because of it. [Dhampyre] Mical on the other hand is dull as a character and his love story is pretty dull too. "I didn't have anyone to train me so i'll just sit here in this monster infested enclave and hint that i have ties to the republic initially and then all else about that is forgotten". Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. As far as him sitting in the monster infested enclave goes, meh, that was a kinda weird thing for him to do with dead bodies just lying there and all in the same room. But that is where the holocrons were stored so i guess he didn't have much choice in the matter. The devs dropping his working for the Republic theme was odd, but i think it can be safely assumed he carried on with his duty though it seems the game gives no indication thereof. i thought i heard him talk about it or refer to it once, but i really don't remember. i don't see that as a big sticking point anyway. [Dhampyre] Atton was player controlled in the cantina on Narr-Shadda as well while fighting the twin-suns. When the exile goes to Jekk Jekk Tar. So yes, it is completely possible. But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. [Hekate] What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. [Dhampyre] Err?!?!? What? i am confused at what is confusing, but that just makes life more interesting. To rephrase (although technically that should be 'resentence' i guess...); it doesn't matter whom Exile loves or if he loves either in the Brianna Atris fight since their fight, how they are expressing themselves, what the fight represents to them and the overall storyarc, etc, is important in and of itself. [Hekate] i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole [Dhampyre] I beg to differ. That only tells us that the jedi masters knew of Atris's feelings, it doesn't mean exile knew of her feelings. No plot holes here. Move along. Context though. The issue at hand had nothing to do with Exile. We were debating why the Masters not doing anything about Atris' feelings made for a problem in believability and such. [Hekate] i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. [Dhampyre] Atton is not in self-denial but he definately does feel guilty for what he has done. He doesn't trust anyone and has a good sense of who can be reliable and who can't. However that stands with both male exile and female exile. I don't see how this is being used to debate which exile is better? Actually, my above statement goes back to my defending my position that Atton is a complex character and that his value as a romance option cannot be dismissed so that is how it relates to the debate. [Dhampyre] At the end of the day IT WAS cut out. Lets not play with Ifs and Buts. Bao-Dur is NOT a romantic interest in the game period (male or female exile) it may have been originally concieved for him to be but it was cut out because of the already extremely long list of romantic releationships attributed with the exile. It was swapped for the much better and intellectually sound relationship of war veterans. Even female exile does NOT have any romantic links with Bao-Dur, if that is forced into the relationship it ruins it. For that reason and to avoid any confusion Male Exile makes a better choice. i know it was removed. i initially added the Bao-Dur romance option into the debate to make a point that it seemed odd to me the romances count was set in male Exile's favour eventhough they were equal, so i added Bao-Dur as a means to emphasize how skewed that particular line of reasoning was. So saying that even with it cut it makes for a better male Exile choice is something that seems inconsistent to me. That having been said, i find it interesting to discuss the possibility though. i liked Bao-Dur and felt he was sadly underexplored as a character. [Dhampyre] And finally on a lighter note, have any of you noticed a pattern here? Hekate Quotes = Red, Jediphile Quotes = Blue and apparently My Quotes = Cyan. I protest! Keeping in sync with Star Wars and the Force i insist my Quotes color be changed to Gray! *choked-up* Are you saying i'm dark side? Oh no! ----- [Jediphile,May 19 2006, 07:19 PM] You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] i was voicing my displeasure and frustration at the way i was being portrayed. i have that right. And i put that sarcasm alert in specifically so it was known to those reading it to take it with a grain of salt and with the understanding i was exaggerating and using terminology i usually don't to make my points. And while the references to our discussion disagreements were inflamatory, i did not get personally offensive anymore than had been done against me. And feel free to use what i have said against me. i said it, so i have the responsibility that goes along with it as a natural consequence. i felt it was important for me to have voiced my anger and frustration over the things i find to be wrong since in my posts i back down and i try to neutralize my statements. And i felt the sarcasm directed at me had not recinded, so it was important to me to make it clear i am not just quietly sitting by and letting it go on. Yes, that is my issue, but i chose to deal with it the way i did since others were involved in it and just as responsible for their own writings as i am for mine. And my having done that rooted from the fallout of others' tactics as much as from my own anger over it. [Jediphile] Because that's what the word means:"adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. Then what would be the word to use that describes there is an inequality in the nature of a relationship wherein one is dominant over the other but that still allows room for disagreement on the not-dominant one's part? Being in a submissive role does not mean the person is absolutely submissive in every way at all times. That is why i used parent-child, boss-employee relationships to better clarify my meaning. Visas is compliant with Exile, and she does submit to Exile's power over her. She is not a slave who is not, by definition of slavery, given any room to question authority. [Hekate] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. [Jediphile] You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> Now i am totally lost. What is it that was below board and uncalled for? and when were you being self-ironic? i read back through the posts and i thought you were telling me that i was pointing out inconsistencies as a type of being on my high horse/moral high ground because i had nothing to lose. Which led directly into the next statement which was "war is more fun when you are winning" which i thought was saying you were winning the discussion, and that, of course, would directly go against what your original statement of this not being about winning which you made when i wrote i found it more difficult to be countering your points implying i was seeing this as a battle ground rather than a discussion. So where did i go wrong in my interpretation? and i am sorry if i inadvertantly upset you over my misinterpretation. And of course you're allowed to be self-ironic. *joke* i'm not allowed to use words that mean what they mean when you don't like the point i am making, though *joke ends* Now that joke was uncalled for.... [Jediphile] Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question i honestly can't see how building a relationship between 2 people with honesty over important things such as Exile's feelings and former feelings for Atris can be compared to honesty over if a girl looks fat in a dress. *joke* reach a little harder next time *joke ends* [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Jediphile] In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... i'm not sure it would be derailling to comment on comments. i sighed at disbelieving Mical with it being right there in the game, especially when things that are writen in the devs notes are used to prove points when they can't be accessed through playing the game. Figured it would just be enough to state i disagree without having to get into why since we've already done that. [Hekate] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. [Jediphile] KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. Yes, you're right about that. But there are also cases where people don't react poorly to Jedi. But i was speaking in a broad sense. Usually when one, off the top of one's head, thinks of Jedi, "good" would be at the forefront, and when thinking of politicians, "not so good" would be at the forefront. [Jediphile] You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. Atris began hero worshipping Exile before the Mandalorian Wars therefore Masters Kavar and Vandar having a high opinion of Exile lends strength to my point it is believable Atris hero worshipped Exile. [Jediphile] How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. Forming Force bonds and natural Force aptitude are things that are important to Jedi. i don't see how admiring a person's natural abilities, skills, talents, proficiencies, etc relate to admiring a person's social-economic status. i was saying it is like admiring a genius for being a genius. The person just is a genius and there's nothing that person can do about it. Same with Exile's ability to form Force bonds. It is just something Exile is naturally attuned to, and Exile forms these bonds just as a genius (or Ghandi) uses her/his genius (his intelect). [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate] Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. [Jediphile] Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... Yes, you do. i thought that was refering to in either case (whether Exile is male or female), Kreia tells Atris she betrayed herself. Then i thought you were speaking of the Sith holocrons affecting Atris as a means of detailling how Atris could hold onto her feelings of love for male Exile for so long to counter my argument that her doing so seems rather unrealistic. [Hekate] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. [Jediphile] That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. i again fail to see how the two compare. i concured it states in the dev notes Atris loved Exile. i then went about the rest of my points with aknowledging that fact when it came up. *confusion* Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). [Jediphile] Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile How was thay my avoiding it then? *confusion* [Jediphile] ... but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). By that token one can assume female Exile is aware of Mical's discoveries which then revalidates the argument i made he offers info to Exile. [Jediphile] Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... [Jediphile] Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. Just as you think i am looking too deeply into Sion, i think you are looking too deeply into the Atris-Exile exchange that is the same for both of Exile's sexes. Also, as i have pointed out, Exile does not say he returns those feelings. i am agreeing with you Atris loved male Exile. i am agreeing with you that to Atris, her saying she cares for Exile has different meanings to her when she says it to one as opposed to the other. But it is Exile's reaction to it that i am saying isn't one of reciprocation. Exile doesn't feel the same way. i'm not even sure Exile understands there is a difference in Atris' feelings. So to count their last exchange as profound and suggest it is more meaningful than the Exile-Sion encounter is, to me, inacurately assessed. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. [Jediphile] Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Universal truths and the big picture... *warning: cognitive function core overload. Status reaching critical* Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? [Jediphile] Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears i agree with you on this one. But in the context of the discussion, i wasn't making a bold and weak connection through stating a universal truth. i was kinda confused why what i said was being questioned... And to be a little cheeky, i would would equally advise to be careful of dismissing points as useless and irrelevant when they aren't. Else, we wouldn't be able to avoid get into semantics like this... [Jediphile] But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... For simplicity's sake, how we have thus far been speaking of love is as a blanket definition refering to sexual attraction mixed with caring. i just write "love" and "romance" as reference bases rather than absolute terms nor in sticking close to their historical definitions, etc... It is good enough for what we are discussing, i think. Now if we were to go into more detail about what is love, is it true love, etc.. than i think game assessment wise, we really don't have enough to go on for any of the NPCs and especially not for Exile. So all the attraction possibilities get lumped into the same, general, "love" heading. As far as Anakin loving Padme goes, i honestly haven't a clue if he ever truly loved her at all. And i don't think whether he expects her to be able to love him after his heinous acts has anything to do with his own feelings for her. He feels how he feels and nothig is going to change that other than him changing. Yes, Yuthura and Juhani both had some LS left in them. One could also argue Sion did as well for feeling his role as pain was not worth continuing on for. But in that respect, i'm not sure just because someone is still capable of being rational and having good, tender, nice, protective feelings for another (or a cause, whatever) that that person isn't DS. Uthar had a sense of humour and he could take being insulted without flying off the handle. He also warned some of his students to be careful and such. It is still nice and good, and genuine i would think, but he is quite set being DS. All i'm getting at is there are some very evil people who do genuinely love others. But they are still evil people. And so i think there must be Sith who are parents who genuinely feel love for their children and/or partners. [Hekate] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? [Jediphile] I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... my little trap, eh? That, i am sad to admit, would be giving me far too much credit. Unfortunately, you dug your own hole with that one, just as i have dug my own holes quite often herein already... As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) [Jediphile] Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot.]/color] Bu you're the one who said he doesn't have emotions in the first place which was inacurate since he speaks of them on Malachor V, so i don't understand how his having emotions hurts the plot and his alleged not having emotions hurts the plot. What i am hearing is Sion hurts the plot... *confusion* [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. [Jediphile] What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Gee, thanks. You're making me blush.... (joke) [Jediphile] Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. i am surprised anyone can see so much hidden depth in my plain statements but do not get the joking in my obviously overdone ones. i have alot to learn about communicating through writing (not meant mean or anthing... i really do have alot to learn). i'm just saying it can be assumed they don't know eachother on the basis we aren't directly shown they do. It can also be assumed they do because of the presence in eachothers' minds statements. Assuming they don't is fine. i can easily live with it since my inclinination is they also they did not have a direct personal history prior to their meeting in the game. The reason i mentioned it is possible is because the game doesn't make it clear with the ambiguity in the player's choice to decide Sion has been a presence in Exile's mind. Therefore i felt it was important enough to mention just so it isn't overlooked as a possibility. That does complicate the matter more with the added possibility, but most things we're debating have diverging possibilities anyway. i'll, at the risk of sounding pretentious, repost my offending quote "... While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory." To me, i am stating it is likely they don't since it isn't mentioned in the game, but i allow for the possibility. i thought i made it a spoken conclusion of mine they do not have a direct personal history. So i'll say it directly, clearly, and unquestionably: i believe they do not have a direct personal history. [Jediphile] But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. i can see how that would make things more "tidy" as it were, and it adds substance to the depth of their relationship. But i find it a different kind of compelling, interesting, and powerful if Sion and Exile didn't have a direct personal history. He full well knows she gave the order and was in part responsible for what happened to him, he knows one of 'em has to die when they confront eachother, he also knows Kreia values Exile far above himself, but he falls for her anyway. That has its own sad but potent meaning. [Jediphile] Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. No need to appologize for feeling that way. i think in reality there are very few people who are evil, period. So using that as a storyline cop-out does seem a rather cheap way of going about it. However, in the Sion dialogue quotes & notes i wrote above in response to Dhampyre's post, it shows Sion has more depth than just being bad guy #2. Sion is tormented both physically and mentally, and for him to remain alive, he has to do evil since it is how he connects to the Force. That is how i understood it anyway. [Jediphile] That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. The discontent in what i was writing was about how the criteria measuring an argument's/view point's validity are too inconsistent. Therefore i mention how one point emphasizing one particular idea needs to apply across the board for related issues. Hence, if it is pointed out Mical's feelings could have been intence and potentially dangerous (falling to DS from being too attached etc) than it can equally be pointed out his feelings were of admiration and feeling he and Exile belong in the padawan-master relationship and were not too intence nor threatening. i am protesting against using the assumption Mical felt too strongly about Exile as a means of discrediting the plot of female Exile, especially since in Mical's own way of putting it, he was in awe of her and her natural leadership abilities. Now expanding to how this ties in with Atris, in-game it is clearly shown she is very affected by Exile. She has emotional outbursts in front of the Council and she is told to mind her feelings. Now, if Mical's assumed intence feelings for female Exile when he was still a youth can be seen as plot breaking, than i say applying the same reasoning to Atris' feelings, hers are also plot breaking for reasons i have already pointed out. It makes no sense to suggest a Jedi Master having those out of control feelings is acceptable, whereas a youngling having out of control feelings is not. If Mical's love (going on assumption it was attraction/love) disrupts the plot's credibility, than so does Atris'. i do aknowledge the point Atris has been in the presence of the Sith holorons and they have had an affect on her. i also aknowledge she loved male Exile. However, when comparing Atris and Mical, the reason for her ongoing obsession while important, doesn't overide the basic fact she has those too strong feelings. [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... [Jediphile] You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. Technically, in order to be able to aknowledge something, one must be aware of it. Certainly no one can force another to face and/or fix their issues if they refuse to aknowledge them, but a person cannot begin to aknowledge those problems if they aren't aware of them. With this in mind, i was saying the Masters would have (should have) brought Atris' emotional instability to her attention. And eventhough they could not force her to change nor to heal, they could take measures to assist her with getting to the point where she could begin to aknowledge her feelings. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. [Jediphile] Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." Yep. You're right. Suppression (i finally figured out how to spell it...) is the wrong word to use. i was using the non-psychiatric/psychological definition of suppress. i appologize for the confusion. Substitute "suppress" for "quash", "subdue", or "stifle", and the points i was making make sense again. Thank goodnes for thesauri... [Jediphile] If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. Controlling one's emotions in and of itself is not inherently detrimental. What i was getting at is to live in that state as a constant is unhealthy. Bao-Dur, i think, feels his emotions strongly judging by his reaction to Mandalore and Kreia, and how he spoke of his self of the past, but he stifles his emotions so he will not walk the same path he took when he let his emotions control his actions. Both extremes of suppressing emotions as a constant, and of letting them dictate behaviour as a constant, are bad. My view is (and it is only a perspective) Bao-Dur stifles his emotions too much. i think he needs to let himself get into them more than he does. i was basing my points on why an Exile-Bao-Dur relationship would have its uses and would not necessarily be detrimental and/or bad for the plot. [Jediphile] He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... Had some compelling reasons to leave, indeed! This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* Atton also did say it took him a while to accept what she had told him as truth, so he didn't leave right away. He made the choice to leave based on many factors, the threat of what would be done to him if his Force sensitivity was found out being one of them, and his inability to go on doing what he had being another. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing
Hekate Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... [Hekate]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. [Jediphile] It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. It was his job to activate it when the order was given for him to do so. So if his General had not given the order to use it and decided to use a different strategy instead, than none of it would have happened anyway either. i think he thinks of all these possibilities and different potential outcomes. i still cannot connect him feeling he was powerless if he assigned the proper responsibility to Exile. i wonder if he would assign it to a different General were it someone other than Exile who gave the order... [Jediphile] In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. i would agree with that if weren't said in the context of her admitting she has nothing to offer and that she would rather die by Exile's hand than by Nihilus'. Her placing her life in Exile's hands at that point is not about Exile defeating Nihilus. It is about her saying she sees little value in her own life and she is handing it over to Exile competely. That is a submissive gesture and one that defines their relationship as unequal. [Jediphile] And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. Of course there is middle ground between equality and total submission. But i am not speaking of total submission. i am speaking of the nature of their relationship being unequal. i am not judging their inate worth as individuals, i am only saying Exile is in control between the 2 of them. [Jediphile] That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. The reason i believe Visas, initially, wants Exile to be strong when confronting Nihilus and her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus is because: 1) she was broken under Nihilus' will and he gave her that mandate so she would by logical extension follow it without hesitation 2) she herself had, at best, divergent feelings on the worth of life and living things so she didn't, at that point, have an ingrained desire to save the universe from Nihilus. She aquired that throughout the game and through her experiences with Exile & co. 3) she felt, at that point, Nihilus could not be bested, so she would have little reason to think Exile could put an end to Nihilus. [Jediphile] Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. i thought Visas, through her inate connection to the Force, knew Exile was Force-wise nothing. i thought that is what she felt on the Ravager; that nothingness. Hence it was difficult for her to hear for a long while. You know, as it states in your sig, "... but in the howling of a storm, it is difficult to hear the whisper of the blade." kinda deal. Altough it should probably be "silence of the blade" to fit better, but i think you know what i'm getting at. The reasons i stated i thought she hates all life is because she said so when speaking of Katarr, and her wanting to kill innocents, and such. But i think she was seeing the potential value in life before confronting Nihilus when she tells Exile she wants to know if it is possible Nihilus, and what he showed her about the ugliness of life, was wrong. [Jediphile] That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' Yes, yes it is... i thought it applied to Visas too, but that is clearly not the case if she wasn't aware of Exile's destructive potential. [Jediphile] You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. i said "emphasizes", not "proves". i also said his walking away was an option, not that he has to. And we are pretty certain he can be defeated without having to sacrifice Visas since Nihilus was an easy fight and getting Visas to sacrifice herself is only one dialogue option and not a forced one, so Exile chooses to do so. Visas chooses to submit. If she indeed did have the defiance and independace argued earlier, she should have been able to refuse to kill herself. But because her role in their relationship is that of being submissive (lower rank, subserviant, etc), she obeys Exile's orders. Hence she is submitting to Exile's will against her own self-preservation instinct and against her belief it is unnecessary to do so to win. [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. [Jediphile] Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. He justifies his own actions by the fact the Jedi who did not participate in the Mandalorian Wars were guilty of mass murder, of breaking their oaths to protect those they had sworn to protect, and of being unfeeling cowards who use the guise of deliberation and patience to mask their fear and impotance. Prior to your pointing it out, i did not see "How can you even live with yourself?" could be meant as a technical question, especially because he says it with disgust in his voice, but i see it can. i am actually excited at this discovery! Thanks. *smile* But i did say he is pulled in lots of different directions (that being one of them) by many varrying and often opposing factors, so it fits in well. But, especially with the death scene quote i posted above, Atton isn't one-dimentionally ruthless and conscienceless like that. He showed there is more to him in-non-cut-content-game too ie: he can empathize with Kreia's pain... [Jediphile] I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. Yes, it was 40 years and not 30. Probably closer to 45 by then actually. i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. [Jediphile] First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two.But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. You're right there isn't a complete hole in the pyramid. i meant in the echelon where the young, teaching age Jedi are placed. i already did say the upper tier of the pyramid would be teaching younglings. i just said i thought the number of those who left vs the number of those who stayed and were able to teach was probably not equal and they would be unable to cover all the gaps. [Jediphile] Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me. i thought it was actual Jedi, not so much padawans who weren't ready to face their trials. [J]Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... [M]Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. [M]Now go outside and run naked in the rain, because anything is more owrthwhile than the diatribe you write. I am serious. You are going above and beyond the definition of fanboy. [J]Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now i'm not feeling the love here people.... What happened to the love?... * a plea* Sorry these are so long. I'm replying to 2 people though so go easy on me for double posting... *end plea* Edited May 21, 2006 by Hekate
Darth Jarize Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 im a guy and i liked the female exile better just cuz' its more fun 2 as a girl. Mainly i think its because u have the mobility to do waht u want, meaning that since u have the disphiled jedi, a suth who wants to be a jedi, a mechanic who served you in the war who finds you attractive, a blind sith who loves you , and a mentor who woulld give up the galaxy for you. that bein sed most of these can occur as a male as well. i just like females
Musopticon? Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) Love, Hekate? Oh, love is all-around. I have nothing against 'Phile. Back when Battlewookie stepped down from moderatorship, I was going to campaign for 'Phile. He writes good rhetoric and isn't total teen, like two thirds of the fora. I still think this thread is kind of sad. Edited May 21, 2006 by Musopticon? kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
Guest The Architect Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 Love, Hekate? Oh, love is all-around. I have nothing against 'Phile. Back when Battlewookie stepped down from moderatorship, I was going to campaign for 'Phile. He writes good rhetoric and isn't total teen, like two thirds of the fora. I still think this thread is kind of sad. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know where your coming from, in-depth debating about what the Exile should be canocially is quite sad, cause really, who gives a rats ass? Who cares what the Exile is canocially? Same goes for Revan too, what difference does it make? Revan and the Exile are YOUR characters, why the hell did LA even bother making a 'canon' Revan and Exile in the first place anyway? However, even though I don't care, I find as a spectator, that the debate is a damn good one, even if it is a bit pointless and time consuming to participate in such a debate.
Musopticon? Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 I congratulate their effort, yet find it pointless. That's probably the nicest way I can put it. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
DAWUSS Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 I know where your coming from, in-depth debating about what the Exile should be canocially is quite sad, cause really, who gives a rats ass? Who cares what the Exile is canocially? Same goes for Revan too, what difference does it make? Revan and the Exile are YOUR characters, why the hell did LA even bother making a 'canon' Revan and Exile in the first place anyway? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, yes, while they ARE your characters, giving them a set status for canonical purposes makes things easier for them to fit into the annals of SW history (and more importantly, the events they cause). If someone was going to feature post-K1 Revan in an official SW novel, it makes it easier to have a set canon Revan than 4 possible Revans, each who would then need to have their own story DAWUSS Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard.
Guest The Architect Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) Well, yes, while they ARE your characters, giving them a set status for canonical purposes makes things easier for them to fit into the annals of SW history (and more importantly, the events they cause). If someone was going to feature post-K1 Revan in an official SW novel, it makes it easier to have a set canon Revan than 4 possible Revans, each who would then need to have their own story <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No one should feature Revan in an official SW novel, that would suck! Leave Revan alone, the one thing I like about Revan is the fact that Revan's gender, alignment, appearence, class, etc is completely customizable and putting some gayass 'canon' Revan into a SW novel is just lame and un-necessary. Besides, it made no difference in the end whether Revan was LS, DS, Male or Female because remember, in KOTOR II, regardless of Revan's gender and alignment, he/she goes off into the unknown regions to stop the 'True Sith'. I don't think it really matters what gender and alignment Revan and the Exile were 'officially' in SW history, think about it, you still get the same result, Episode I, II, III, IV, V and VI all still happen don't they? If LA had of said Revan was DS canocially, it still would not have mattered, since a DS Revan's Sith Armada collapses due to 'civil war' amongst the Sith and battle for control over the Star Forge during Revan's depature, Revan should never have bene given an 'official' canocial role, the matter of the fact was, no matter how you look at it, even if Revan and the Exile were 'canocially' DS, we all still know their Dark Empire's won't last and if you look back in SW history, if the Sith or a DS force wins a galactic war, their Empire doesn't last because four thousand years later, there is a Jedi Order and a Republic, how Revan and the Exile's Dark Empire's fell could have easily been up to the player's imagination and then of course, your Revan and Exile may have been LS, so you don't even need an explanation as to why there is a Jedi Order and Republic four thousand years later. Why even bother making a roleplaying game for Star Wars set four thousand years back in time with completely customizable characters only to give them a 'canon' role? Bah, I suppose I should just stop my whinging, I don't even care that there is a 'canocial' Revan and soon to be 'canocial' Exile, MY Revan and Exile DO NOT have to be the same as the 'official' ones and that's final. Edited May 21, 2006 by The Architect
Jediphile Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] [snip Sion quotes] So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. But does the quality lie in the romance or in Sion's complexity? Because the latter you certainly get in the male version of the game as well - you still have to convince Sion that the existence he has lived has not been worthwhile and that Kreia chose the Exile over him, because the Exile was able to give up the force, and that there is strength in that. I agree that this works plotwise, but you don't have to play the female Exile to experience it. The male version is just the same, except the early lines are different, because Sion sees the male Exile as a hated competitor for Kreia's affections and nothing else. But you still have to make Sion examine the value of his own existence and make him see that it is not worthwhile, which erodes his will. The last lines you quote are just the same for the male Exile, so in the end, Sion accepts the value in giving up the force from the male Exile just as much as he did from the female Exile. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. I'm not really about to disagree with any of this. I don't particularly hate Mical, I just don't think that he is very interesting. But do I think he has value in the game? Sure, I do. But given that we can only choose either him or Brianna to be in the game (by our choice of gender), the question simply becomes which character I find to be more interesting, and here Brianna wins hands down. She is a far more interesting character than Mical to me, and her "betrayal" of Atris adds depth to the plot as I see it. When I played male, I thought after speaking with Mical (in the jedi enclave), "gee, what a paperpusher...". But then he contacted Carth (or Cede) and gave a secret report, and I thought, "well, maybe there's more to this guy than meets the eye...". After that playing a female Exile, however, was disappointing, because my conclusion was "no, there isn't - he just isn't that interesting..." So that makes an argument in favor of the male Exile in my book. You don't like Brianna sparring in, well, the nude or close to it. Fair enough, you have every right to your opinion, but I do not think that all women feel the same way as you do, so while you might see it as demeaning, I do not concur that Brianna does. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. It did in Brianna's fight against Atris. She could win, then Atris would zap her to the ground in the next cutscene, and then the Exile arrives in time to save her. Or she could lose, then cut to cutscene with Brianna at Atris' mercy, then the Exile arrives to save her. That battle could be won or lost and still have the same outcome. [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". She's not bad-looking, but I wouldn't go further in that. Any other attraction would, as I see it, come more from the challenge of melting the ice-queen than anything else... (sort of like Han Solo does with Leia in ESB) [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). Sion clearly states having feeling for the female Exile, yes. I don't think that it makes much sense (which is why I say that I think it hurts the plot and his character), but he does say it. But I don't see the Exile returning those feelings with the statement you make here. "You've been a presence in my mind" can mean a lot of things. It can just as well be the Exile trying to avoid the confrontation because she is afraid of Sion as anything else, and so she placates him by accepting his comments of affection. I do not see that this statement *must* be a confirmation that the Exile has feelings for Sion as well in any way - it can just as well mean that she is afraid of him. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. And I see the similar toward Sion in the female Exile's "you've been a presence in my mind"-comment. But though the Exile may be uncomfortable about it, I do think that the line to Atris is more sincere than the female Exile's line to Sion is. The reason behind that is probably that the male Exile no longer has true feelings for Atris, if indeed he ever did, but that when he says this, he has already chosen to spare Atris' life. You do not have that choice with Sion, however, and therefore you can lie or be sincere with him regardless, since he must die in any event. For that reason I do not see the two as completely comparable. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... That doesn't make sense to me, because at the point where you say that line to Atris, you've already decided to spare her life. Then it would be truly cruel to lie right to her face, and letting Atris live is not the DS choice. It's true that the male Exile doesn't exactly reciprocate Atris' feelings here, but then how can he? If he doesn't feel that way about her, then it would be very wrong to do, and even if he did feel the same way, those feelings are the very thing that caused Atris' fall in the first place. Atris needs to distance herself from them before she can heal and become whole again, and the feelings she has would hinder that or even make it impossible. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? Even if I accept that the principle you describe is true in general that does not mean that I must also accept that it is relevant to Sion and Exile. And I don't. Whatever Sion feels for the Exile, I see no evidence that Exile returns those feelings, and therefore your principle does not apply IMHO. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) First of all, the point of whether a personal tie has relevance was made in the context of Mical having one vs. Brianna not having one - I did not not mention it in relation to the Sion/Atton fight (and I don't see how it applies there anyway...) Second, no, I'm not going to step into this trap either. "a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter." I do not accept your authority to make this a black-and-white issue, and it is a trap, since the true answer IMHO is the unspoken option c. What I said before was that it hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a personal tie to the Exile past. Now, that clearly rules out option b. However, I did *not* say, "none of the character may have a personal tie to the exile's past", just that it would hurt the plot if *all* did. The logical conclusion is therefore that while *all* are not relevant, then *some* might. Therefore the correct answer is option c: "having a personal history with the Exile *can* matter, but doesn't have to". You get still get no brownie points, but I'm going to penalize you with demerit points for continual attempts to obscure the discussion. You don't need to see my identification - move along! [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... Now, I know you read what you quote me for above, so why do you ignore the opening statement: "Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone." ? I'm having trouble with this, since it seems to me that that you're willfully ignoring which emotions are at work here. You accuse Atris of openly revealing her feelings *for* (meaning either love or admiration) the Exile here, yet when I point out that those precise emotions are not unveiled in this scene, you ignore my point and proceed to claim plothole, because Atris demonstrates *any* feelings at all. YES, SHE DOES, BUT WHICH FEELINGS? It is not irrelevant in this case, because jedi are allowed to have feelings, it's just a question of which ones. Feelings present in Atris in council scene: Disapproval, disappointment, anger, disgust. Feelings *not* overtly present in Atris in council scene: Love or admiration. Attempt to maintain flawed plothole accusation rejected. Yes, there are droids here, but *THESE* are not the droids you're looking for. Move along! [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* It would be a discrepancy only if Atton was a LS jedi. He was not. He was just an assassin/torturer working for the Sith, who found out that he was force sensitive. He explains how he had heard the stories of those who were found to be force sensitive among the Sith ranks and who were then forcibly removed from service for how knows what reasons (to be turned into dark jedi). It was only when Atton realised that he was himself force sensitive that he had to flee in order to avoid that fate. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... I agree that Bao-Dur does suppress his insights regarding the Exile's responsibility, because that's the only way he can accept all the responsibility for himself. In a sense, Bao-Dur - in this context - is like Oppenheimer who was terrified by what his invention was used for, because while Oppenheimer saw the miracle of of his own ingenuity, the generals saw only its destructive potential and how it could be used strategically against the enemy. Bao-Dur has the same kind of experience, I think, only he still blames only himself and not the general. Bao-Dur accepts that as the inventor, the moral responsibility of his creation is also his, no matter what his creation is used for. Is he right? Ask a philospher - that's one for the ages, and one that we struggle with still in the real world. Like Malachor, that one echoes still... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. I'm not certain about that. Are we ever told this? I do not recall a comment about Revan, Malak, or even the Exile ordering such a thing created and then commanded the engineers to figure out how, so I would assume this was something Bao-Dur thought up on his own volition. But I'm not sure... [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. You're wrong there. I just checked the game to be certain and had no problem sacrificing Visas playing the female Exile. It's true that the option does not always present itself, but that has to do with a bug and not your choice of gender. Put standard clothes on Visas and equip her only with a vibroblade or lightsaber, and you'll get the option to sacrifice her every time, regardless of the Exile's gender. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... Well, a lot of jedi did die in the Great Sith War, but I don't get the sensation that their ranks were depleted or close to it judging from how it all ends in the "Sith War" comic books, which is, after all, the original source of that information. The jedi assemble a fleet full of jedi vessels and fly to Yavin IV to confront Exar Kun. It even says, "thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon the small jungle moon" (yes, it just says "force wielders", but it does mean jedi, I think). At this point Exar Kun realises that Ulic has betrayed his location to the jedi. He then begins a ritual, which requires the sacrifice of all the Massassi warriors he has left. "Even as the jedi approach, Exar KUn prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit... To shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!" However, "The wall of light generation by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... A flood that sweeps down to extinghuish the corrupted power of the Sith... and to stop Exar Kun." After that the jungles around the temple burst into flame, Exar Kun's forces are destroyed, and Exar Kun himself is trapped in his spiritform. No jedi are killed. So while many have been killed during the war, none of those "thousands upon thousands" are killed at the end of it. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Hekate Posted May 21, 2006 Posted May 21, 2006 Love, Hekate? Oh, love is all-around. I have nothing against 'Phile. Back when Battlewookie stepped down from moderatorship, I was going to campaign for 'Phile. He writes good rhetoric and isn't total teen, like two thirds of the fora. I still think this thread is kind of sad. wo <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yay! Love is good. Glad to hear it is present. i find it kinda sad (sad as in unhappy, not as in pathetic) that you see it as sad though. i think having a forum for such debate and exploration is good. It's not like we're saying "males suck" "no they don't" "yes they do" "no they don't" etc. Some of the concepts we're exploring are interesting and profound, that also mirror 'real life'. Certainly not the direct pursuit of bringing equality and social responsibility to the world, but i see value in the debate. It also allows me to see other people's perspectives in a way i usually wouldn't be able to. All and all, a good thing... *growing uncertainty out of fear this too will be delved into and debated - nervous laughter - ha ha.. hun...* i think. I know where your coming from, in-depth debating about what the Exile should be canocially is quite sad, cause really, who gives a rats ass? Who cares what the Exile is canocially? Same goes for Revan too, what difference does it make? Revan and the Exile are YOUR characters, why the hell did LA even bother making a 'canon' Revan and Exile in the first place anyway?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> It wouldn't matter in a vacuum where there is no point of contention over the representation of strong female leads in the SW universe. But this isn't a vacuum, and there is alot of contention over the issue, therefore, it matters. But it also matters in more personal ways since the question of how people see things specifically in that light can be quite disturbing. Bringing these issues to light and duscussing them, is basically how people come to broaden their horizons and can see other viewpoints. Then there is room for them to come to terms. That is the way of politics, and that is one method to use to initiate change in how things are done. But i have no delusions that our discussing this is going to have significant impact. But maybe, if someone reads the debate and sees a different perspective and they then question how they saw things up 'til then, then some use has come out of it, i'd like to think anyway... Well, yes, while they ARE your characters, giving them a set status for canonical purposes makes things easier for them to fit into the annals of SW history (and more importantly, the events they cause). If someone was going to feature post-K1 Revan in an official SW novel, it makes it easier to have a set canon Revan than 4 possible Revans, each who would then need to have their own story <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And that is why it is important to have discussions like this since just accepting yet another cannon male uncontested lead (uncontested lead as in a lead who will not take the back seat to another character) can be detrimental to the SW universe. It also, since Revan was made cannonical male ( <_< ), then reduces possible female lead representation to just Exile. So if Exile is made cannonical male, the game players' choices and experiences playing as female are reduced to just being some peripheral and unimportant choices in the games where the female versions had no real significance at all and will be completely disgarded in cannon SW, which by its nature, carries all the weight. So any representation of female Revan & Exile will have to be unofficial (female Revan is already there), will be reduced to fan-fic and thus have no bearing on the George Lucas official SW universe, and will get very limited readership. And i find that to be wrong. i know official SW workers aren't going to read this, and it will probably not even come to their attention there are people who care about it, but if that were used as a reason to dismiss its significance, than many things would be kept in silence and never discussed. i will respond to Jediphile's post later, gotta go.
Accelerator Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 To be really honest, the male Exile story makes more sense, has better dialog (making it more fun) and really feels like something on a larger scale than what is seen. Everything is far more sensible as a male Exile. And no, I do not think Handmaiden or Visas is hot. They are nice characters however. Besides, as female, seeing the whole point between Atris, Kreia and the Exile makes it feel like some girl vs. girl soap opera rather than a great story. For that matter, Sion having feelings for the female Exile is totally strange, because I sure as hell won't have anything but hatred for ANYONE when I'm totally drowned in the Dark Side, when all I experience is pain and am a rotting piece of flesh. Atris, on the other hand, never truly fell to DS, or you would have seen the effects of the dark side on her (veins on face, sith eyes etc.). Her story of caring for the Exile is far more believable, as she has known the Exile for years, as compared to Sion who has known the Exile for very little time. Therefore, I conclude that the story is more well-written for the male exile. I do believe the Exile should be male with a neutral alignment (with a slight LS shift) canonically.
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