Yet another vid card thread

[Enoch]

A few of the local experts might remember me piping into some of the recent video card discussions around here. I've finally done some preliminary shopping, and I've got a few questions.

 

I'm looking for an AGP vid card to replace my old geforce3. The machine (a Dell purchased in 2002) is a 2.0 gig P4, with 512 MBs of RAM (I'm planning on doubling this; I'll probably order it with the vid card to save on shipping). I'm looking for something that'll extend its useful gaming life by another year or two (i.e., will run Oblivion, NWN2, Civ4 maps larger than "standard").

 

My current concern: Power supply is 250 W. Is this sufficient to run a newer card? If not, is this something that a relative neophyte can hope to replace by himself? (And approximately how much would that set me back?)

 

Many thanks!

 

(Note: For price references or retailer recommendations, I'm in the continental US)

[Bokishi]

6600

[metadigital]

Depends on the brand of CPU ... a recent test found that over half of the ones on the market blew up when they were drawn at full voltage and amperage for more than a few minutes.

 

The best one for an upgrade would probably be the Seasonic S12-500W, and because it has very good efficiency, it will save you money over your current one.

 

You won't need to upgrade unless you buy a PCI-E card (or two!), which need extra juice.

 

Verdict: Quiet, efficient, stable and better connected than the KGB

Rating:

 

 

 

In contrast to all the other companies whose mid-range PSUs we tested, with the exception of FSP, Seasonic is the only true manufacturer of PSUs.

 

Seasonic's full control of the design and manufacturing process has clearly given the S12-500 an advantage and, as a result, it's brilliant. Seasonic rates it at 500W, which is split into 30A on the 3.3V and 5V rails, with two 12V rails producing 17A for 12V1 and 16A for 12V2. There's a multitude of power cables, including support for both 20- and 24-pin motherboards, and even 8-pin EPS12V motherboards. What's more, in addition to the usual Molex, FDD and S-ATA plugs, there are two PCI-E power cables just begging to be connected to a pair of graphics cards in SLI.

 

Seasonic PSUs are renowned for their incredible efficiency, so it's no surprise that the S12-500 can be cooled by a near-silent, temperature-controlled 120mm fan. At 100 per cent load, the efficiency didn't drop below an astonishing 82 per cent. This means that it only required 601W to produce 493W, which is about 100W less than the Ultra XCONNECT 500W consumed for the same output.

 

As a Premium Grade Approved award winner, it should go without saying that the S12-500 delivers rock-solid voltages at all levels, but it's more than just a stable PSU; it's also quiet, efficient and extremely well connected. The only problem with it is that the 600W Seasonic costs only

[LoneWolf16]

If at all possible, invest in a motherboard that supports PCI-E. If not, maybe a 6800GS. Or one of the 6600s, as Bok suggested.

[metadigital]

I'm looking for an AGP vid card to replace my old geforce3. 

Dell 2.0 gig P4, with 512 MBs of RAM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only figures I have are for spanking new hardware, which will drain more than the older stuff:

Pentium D 930

idle: 153W; load: 240W

Athlon 64 X2 4200+

idle: 70W; 110W

Western Digital Raptor X

idle: 9W; load: 10W

Seagate 40GB 7,200rpm

idle: 7W; load: 8W

 

GeForce 7800 512MB

idle: 94W; load: 203W

Radeon X1900XT

idle: 95W; load: 210W

Radeon X300

idle: 70W; load: 103W

 

The good news is:

• a PSU is easy to replace, just a few screws (usually);
  
• equipment will only drain what it needs; so the extra initial outlay is the only negative to having a larger than required PSU; and
  
• a good quality PSU will prevent damage to components AND be cheaper to run as it is more efficient.
  

I am also going to pick up a UPS, as they are cheap (

[Enoch]

Thanks, Meta, thats helpful. I was afraid that messing with the power supply (which I've never done before) would be a pain. Should I worry about getting one that will fit well in my case, or is the size & screw configuration standard?

[metadigital]

Should be standard. Check their websites, but (except for unusual cases, which are normally explained) they adhere to normal size specifications. (I'm not sure how Dell fix their PSUs into the case, you might want to take a look at the screw configuration first.)

[WITHTEETH]

Hi Enoch

 

How much money are you looking to spend? I only say this because you want to play Oblivion and that game is harder on graphics then that cursed game FEAR.

 

If you really do plan on getting a new powersupply then your options are much better. The NVidia 7800GS are the fastest AGP cards out there, particularly the Gainward Bliss 7800GS 512mbram which actuallyl has a 7800GT chip in it that comes overclocked by the manufacturer. This is pricey though.

 

For midrange (for AGP) Maybe a 6800GS, good quality card i believe. You can probably find an overclocked one by eVGA. It seems that the 7600GT might come out soon for AGP, if you wait, this would be the better option.

 

If you are planning on playing anymore new games like Oblivion use Windows Vista on this machine you might as well upgrade to 2gigs, there are improvements, and vista requires a reccommended 850mbram for standard use.

 

Also while your opening your computer don't forget to get the dust bunnies out! Many people let them collect and it adds to the heat.

 

[Enoch]

Hi Enoch 

 

How much money are you looking to spend? I only say this because you want to play Oblivion and that game is harder on graphics then that cursed game FEAR.

 

If you really do plan on getting a new powersupply then your options are much better. The NVidia 7800GS are the fastest AGP cards out there, particularly the Gainward Bliss 7800GS 512mbram which actuallyl has a 7800GT chip in it that comes overclocked by the manufacturer. This is pricey though.

 

For midrange (for AGP) Maybe a 6800GS, good quality card i believe. You can probably find an overclocked one by eVGA.  It seems that the 7600GT might come out soon for AGP, if you wait, this would be the better option.

 

If you are planning on playing anymore new games like Oblivion use Windows Vista on this machine you might as well upgrade to 2gigs, there are improvements, and vista requires a reccommended 850mbram for standard use.

 

Also while your opening your computer don't forget to get the dust bunnies out! Many people let them collect and it adds to the heat.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the input.

 

Total $$ isn't as big a deal to me as value-- I'd like the whole of my machine to be obsolete at around the same time (I'll probably start considering a new rig in about a year and a half). As evidenced by my putting off an upgrade for this long, I don't need the bleeding edge (where I'd imagine that my processor would start to hold me back more than the vid card). Tentatively, I'd get worried about price if the whole transaction (vid card, RAM, PSU) starts getting into the $400 range.

 

On the RAM, my owners' manual tells me that 1 gig is the maximum my mobo can handle.

 

As for the video cards, an additional question: I'm a little lost in the differences within each model. I.e., what's the performance difference between a card with 128MB DDR3 VRAM and one with 256MB DDR VRAM? I'm probably a bit old fashioned in reading too much into the # of MB, especially considering that the pricetags tell me that the former setup is more desirable.

[angshuman]

I'd like the whole of my machine to be obsolete at around the same time.

Very nice philosophy. I always keep something like this at the back of my mind while shopping for parts. Balance between a system's components not only has a certain aesthetic appeal, it also has a technical significance since it implies that none of the components are bottlenecking your system.

 

I would agree with Bokishi and go ahead and recommend a vanilla 6600. You should be able to play most modern titles, but you will likely have to reduce quality settings to minimal levels.

 

As for the video cards, an additional question:  I'm a little lost in the differences within each model.  I.e., what's the performance difference between a card with 128MB DDR3 VRAM and one with 256MB DDR VRAM?

The performance of your video card is affected by three factors: (a) GPU performance, (b) Memory performance, and © amount of Memory. Of these, GPU and Memory performance have somewhat of a linear impact on user-perceived performance. Amount of Memory works very differently -- if the amount of data that is currently in the scene you are observing fits into your VRAM, gameplay will be smooth. However, if the data does not fit, you will perceive occasional jolts as the new data is swapped in. Most modern games fit well into 128MB, and swaps are uncommon enough to be not noticed.

 

(a) GPU performance is proportional to (i) the width of the GPU, i.e., the number of pixel pipelines in the GPU, and (ii) the clock speed (MHz) of the GPU. Simply multiply the two of them and you should have a very very crude idea about the level of performance you can expect from the GPU.

 

(b) Memory performance is proportional to (i) the width of the bus interface between the GPU and the memory, typically 64, 128 or 256 bits, and (ii) the clock speed (MHz) of the memory. Multiplying the two of them should give you a more or less accurate indication of your video RAM performance.

 

GDDR3 memories are manufactured using expensive processes that enable them to be clocked at very high frequencies. As far as the end user is concerned, you need not look at whether the memory is DDR or GDDR3. What you are concerned with is the clock speed of the memory, and the width of the memory interface.

 

To see the kind of tradeoffs that are possible using these parameters, you can look at two Nvidia cards that offer about the same level of performance, but have significantly different configurations.

 

6600GT : GPU width = 8, GPU clock = 500MHz, Mem width = 128, Mem clock = 1000MHz (GDDR3)

6800NU : GPU width = 12, GPU clock = 350MHz, Mem width = 256, Mem clock = 700MHz (DDR2)

 

Although Nvidia had initially priced the 6800NU at a much higher slab than the 6600GT, the prices eventually leveled off. What's interesting is that the 6600GT, due to its GDDR3 memory, could only be found in 128MB configurations since placing more than that would prohibitively raise the cost of the product. However, the 6800NU could be found in both 128MB and 256MB avatars since piling on el-cheapo DDR2 memory is easy. At any rate, very few modern games will actually bring out the difference between a 128MB and a 256MB card; they simply do not have large enough datasets under reasonable quality settings. While shopping for a video card, look for GPU and Memory performance, and any amount of memory greater than or equal to 128MB should be fine.

[Enoch]

Thanks, Ang. Very helpful stuff. I probably won't be making the order for another week or two-- I've got some important projects going, and I don't want to risk messing with my PC until they're off my plate. (I'm also not going to have much to play games until they're done, and what's the point in upgrading before you can actually use it?!)

[kirottu]

Get this one.

[Enoch]

Get this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would, but my motherboard doesn't have the 3 necessary PCI-Q slots.

[kirottu]

Not a problem. I have born in the same day as Richard Dean Anderson(macgyver) so I can probably fix something up with couple of pieces of wire and a condom.

[metadigital]

Not that's going anywhere near my electronics ...

[Enoch]

To un-hijack us for a moment, I've been looking into PSUs.

 

In addition to the 500W model Meta recommended above, I noticed that Seasonic also makes a highly-rated 430W model (at about 2/3s the price of the 500W). It lacks the SLI support of the more expensive model, but that's not anything I'd ever make use of on this machine. Seeing as my whole system now runs on 250W (and this is almost certainly the last upgrade I'll do on this rig), is there any compelling reason why I should shell out the extra cash for the more powerful model?

[Fenghuang]

The 500W model would last until your next PC if you wanted to carry it over along with your media drives.

 

That's about the only reason I can think of.

[metadigital]

Yeah, correct. Even if you buy a case with a PSU included, you would be best replacing it with a Seasonic (or equivalent).

 

But if you are just going to patch this PC until the next one, I'd spend as little as possible to get the job done.

 

As you seem to be emboldened, though, I would encourage you to look into building your own PC next. It is a lot cheaper, and you can ensure that you get all the choice kit: like a Raptor X, and a Case with a window to see it!

 

I have just recently subsribed to Custom PC here is the UK, but you might also like reading Tom's Hardware.

 

[Enoch]

Yeah, correct. Even if you buy a case with a PSU included, you would be best replacing it with a Seasonic (or equivalent).

 

But if you are just going to patch this PC until the next one, I'd spend as little as possible to get the job done.

 

As you seem to be emboldened, though, I would encourage you to look into building your own PC next. It is a lot cheaper, and you can ensure that you get all the choice kit: like a Raptor X, and a Case with a window to see it!

 

I have just recently subsribed to Custom PC here is the UK, but you might also like reading Tom's Hardware.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm slowly coming around to the idea of building my own. It'll be a lot more likely if this upgrade goes well. (So that really doesn't help me much in the decisionmaking!)

 

I'll probably go with a cheaper one on this round, though. I figure that, if I do end up building a new rig in a year or two, I won't mind buying a new PSU, considering that I'll still be saving a good amount of $$ over an equivalent retail PC. But if I get a high-end PSU now, and this upgrade turns into a nightmare, I'll be pissed at myself for sinking more $$ than I needed to into this machine.

[metadigital]

Sensible.

[WITHTEETH]

Building your own computer is fun! I've been doiung it since i was a wee kid. All it is are plugs, screw, and drivers.

[Bokishi]

I used to build computers, and then got lazy.

[Dark_Raven]

I prefer to have someone else build it for me. The only thing I can do is install cards and software.

[Fenghuang]

Installing the cards is the hardest part!

[Bokishi]

Getting everything working together is the hardest part. Usually you end up taking some part back.