Complaint: grey characters not grey enough.

[Benfea]

You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

 

The simple fact is that if you consider "alignment" to be a moral measurement, then making Jolee neutral was an error. I suspect that the real reason Jolee is given the neutral alignment is for reasons of game mechanics: so that you could have a party member that received neither bonuses nor penalties for any force power.

[Jediphile]

You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

 

The simple fact is that if you consider "alignment" to be a moral measurement, then making Jolee neutral was an error. I suspect that the real reason Jolee is given the neutral alignment is for reasons of game mechanics: so that you could have a party member that received neither bonuses nor penalties for any force power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the d20 origin of alignments is from D&D, where they are indeed a measure of morality only. Anyone who has played (A)D&D for a few years can confirm this, and since I've been playing on and off for close to two decades now, it's all second nature by now, silly as it is.

 

On the Jedi/Sith scale Jolee may be more neutral, because he doesn't want to fight in the eternal conflict between the two extremes. However, as you've shown yourself, on a scale of morality, he is probably just as much "good" as most jedi in the group. Maybe even more so, since he is the only jedi in the group to never fall to the dark side in spite of having left the order...

[Mahf]

Ok, I'll agree that Jolee is a Gray Jedi who is Chaotic Good.

 

But I never said Kreia was "neutral" just that she was gray, I agreed she was evil. I suppose a strong case could be made that she was always really dark the whole time, but I don't get the sense that that's what the devs were going for.

 

Whether someone can actually be gray in the universe Lucas presents in the movies is certainly a question worth asking, and based on the movies, I'd lean towards saying no they can't. But I think the game seems to suggest that the light and the dark can be intentionally used.

 

It also depends on what you take her motivation to be. To destroy the Force, or to prepare the Exile. I tend to think she was trying to prepare the Exile with everything she did. Thus the goal can even be seen as something that might even be morally desirable.

 

But it does seem to me that that's the sense in which she is gray: she falls when she wants to to serve her purposes, rather than falling and losing all her original purposes in the pursuit of power, which is what happens to most people in the Star Wars universe who fall to the dark side.

[Mahf]

If you view the alignment as a meter for political faction, then yeah, Jolee is neutral. He left the Jedi order because -- of all things -- he was mad at them for forgiving him when he couldn't forgive himself.

 

However if you view alignment as a guage of morality, the Jolee is unequivocably not neutral. He does any number of things in the name of good (e.g. he tags along to keep tabs on Revan, which is why you have to kill him if you turn to the dark side), but I can't think of a single thing Jolee does that I could call evil. A good example is Jolee's reaction to Sunry's act of murder. Although Jolee ultimately bites his lip and keeps his mouth shut in front of the authorities, behind closed doors he takes Sunry to task for the manner in which he killed that Sith. Even if the person Sunry killed was evil, the manner in which he did so was clearly wrong and Jolee says so. A morally neutral or evil character would not have had compunctions about using evil means to remove an evil person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're missing the point. He doesn't *have* to do anything evil to be neutral. He may well be good, but its a subtle distinction. I think the fact that he sits out in the forest by himself points towards his neutrality. He's not exactly hiding, like Obi Wan was, he could be helping in the war, but instead he's just living the life of a hermit, until fate thrusts a role upon him. Not to help then would be evil, not neutral. To stand aside when Revan turns evil would make him evil as well.

 

You said he goes out of his way, but as I said, a neutral character might well go out of his way if not doing so means something as important as the Sith ruling the galaxy.

[The Yeti of 66]

Kreia WAS grey. The acts you commited whether good or evil were never good enough to her unless you could properly explain why. She always talked about ripples. Every slight tap sends forth ripples. She does not want you to send for any good or bad as they stir up troubles that you do not need to deal with. She didn't want you to send out ripples. She wanted you to be calm and still.

 

However at the same time she was evil. She told you that if you wanted to help to do it through subtle manipulation of people and of the force. She explains healing as manipulation, and of course talks about standing on your own two feet even in harsh circumstances. That and of course she hated the force and wanted it destroyed, and used you to do it.

[Sturm]

thats because she was acting neutral, just preparing to unveil herself at the very end, to who she acctually was

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Jolee was one of the only "jedi" who understood that the jedi code was near ridiculous. like kreia. or maybe i'm just confused.

[Jediphile]

Jolee was one of the only "jedi" who understood that the jedi code was near ridiculous. like kreia. or maybe i'm just confused.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whether it's rediculous is subjective.

 

I don't even think that Jolee thought it was, he just thought that the order applied it unjustly, which meant that they were too soft on him. That's why he left. Because what was the use of the code, if they were going to overrule it in certain cases but not others anyway? He lost his faith in the system after that.

 

Kreia hates the code, however, and she finds that the jedi are flawed for their blind trust in the force. She's not grey, however. Sith are not grey, and she was a sith in her heart all along. The "grey" part of her was just a facade.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I never said kreia was grey... just she didn't belive in jedi teachings. or the force...

[Zelean]

It seems I have missed quite a lot lately. This is how I feel on the subject.

 

"Blue"

[Sturm]

more like a jedi exile

[Jediphile]

But I am surprised (or am I?) to read most of you think Kreia was a Sith and all "red". Yes she *was* a Sith, just as she was a Jedi. She'd lived them both and discarded them both to find a new purpose.

If she'd been a Sith until the end, what was her (ultimate) goal then, Jediphile? To die, you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Her ultimate goal was to destroy the force itself, no matter whether others agreed with her or suffered as a consequence. That makes it an evil act, and she is perfectly willing to manipulate and deceive others to reach her goals. But she knew that she could not achieve this goal alone, because only the Exile had the power to destroy the force. So in the end, her own life was not important to her overall goal, and she was willing to sacrifice it in her attempt to bring the Exile to a point, where he would destroy the force for hating it as much as she did.

 

As for being a sith, note the title of the game - the Sith Lords - it's actually quite revealing - the entire game is a bitter feud among the Sith Lords for who is in control.

 

And Kreia did not "stop" being a Sith in the sense that she moved on and was redeemed. No, Nihilus and Sion kicked her out. That doesn't exactly suggest that she suddenly then decided to go and redeem herself instead. Indeed, a primary motivation for is to get revenge against her defiant apprentices, which is scarcely the jedi way.

 

You say she doesn't care about what the consequences of reaching her goal will have on the rest of the galaxy. You're wrong there. 'There's no truth in the force.' She's aware of that truth herself, but she wishes to share her knowledge and wisdom with others (who are "ignorant"). It was that reasoning that persuaded my Exile to follow her (in measure), not her manipulation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So because she sees no truth in the force, that means there is none? I dare say most of the jedi masters would disagree with her. Sure, they could be wrong, but it's still not for her alone to say whether there is truth in the force - it's a question every individual must answer for himself. And who is she to pass judgment on all of the force itself? And her "sharing" of knowledge is - as far as I can tell - nothing more than pure manipulation, since everything she says is so filled with half-truths and deceit that you really cannot take her at her word.

 

So there, I think being "grey" is being against the force (or not about it, at least), able to choose. And that's all she does when she judges the Exile

Edited March 30, 2006 by Jediphile

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

and that is why i like Kreia. Manipualtive witch that gives you choices... and makes you use your brain to think out her strategy even if she wasn't very subtle with hiding her identity.

[Zelean]

Kreia manipulates indiscriminately and constantly. She certainly tries to manipulates the male Exile's towards both Visas and Brianna.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I take it you hate manipulation and what it represents. But don't forget that when (in real-life) parents buy toys to their children they generally manipulate; that politicians manipulate when they claim democracy is the best social system ever; that you manipulate your girlfriend when you flatter her (hypothetical, of course)

[HK-47_THE_MEATBAG_KILLER]

It seems I have missed quite a lot lately. This is how I feel on the subject.

 

"Blue"

[Jediphile]

I take it you hate manipulation and what it represents. But don't forget that when (in real-life) parents buy toys to their children they generally manipulate; that politicians manipulate when they claim democracy is the best social system ever; that you manipulate your girlfriend when you flatter her (hypothetical, of course)

[Zelean]

You challenge me, Jediphile.

 

Manipulation is not the same as persuasion. For the latter you present your position and try to convince others that you are correct. That's not what Kreia does - she lies or hides or misrepresents the truth so that the basis for making an informed decision is flawed. This is not something I find to be positive. For example, she infers that only she can control the Ebon Hawk, which is a lie - T3 controls it. When the talk comes up about the Exile losing his power, she does everything she can to give the Exile the impression, that the masters stripped him of the force, which is also a lie, since she already knew differently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why did you not comment on examples of manipulation I gave? Which strategy did you use

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

if adhering to the jedi code is the light side, then the light side has lost its advantages. the dark side is bad but the light side (if you listen to the jedi) isn't so great either....

[Jediphile]

You challenge me, Jediphile. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, good :D

 

Why did you not comment on examples of manipulation I gave? Which strategy did you use

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

this page is getting long...

[darth_yoda2828]

this page is getting long...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yes it is.

 

//edit: of course then my comment is on the other page <_<

 

I believe that Kreia is grey. If you look at the things she says, all she wants is for you to control events from the shadows. The Jedi did that. The Sith do that. that in itself is neither manipulation nor persuasion. She is *not* evil because she became a Sith Lord out of necessity, to challenge you. And of course to give her an opportunity to destroy the Force. For example, you can unlock the convo with Handmaiden (in the Telos Acadamy) about Revan and his/her revenge against Malak. Kreia interjects with something about whether Revan even had the choice (*implying* that the Force forced (excuse the pun) him/her into it, or at least persuaded Revan.) She hates both the Sith *and* the Jedi. She hates the Jedi for numerous reasons already mentioned (and they are in the game as well) but she also mentions at the end of the game that the Sith Lords were basically chaos-creators. Their only aim was to destroy the Jedi, and to conquer the galaxy. They would destroy everything just for power. How could she join such a people? She is not a brutal power hungry Force wielder -- she is a BETRAYER as Darth Traya mentions many times. She BETRAYED the Sith and she BETRAYED the Jedi. She is not red because she hates both. She hates the Force, dark AND light.

Edited April 5, 2006 by darth_yoda2828

[Sturm]

stop talking

[Jediphile]

She is not a brutal power hungry Force wielder -- she is a BETRAYER as Darth Traya mentions many times.  She BETRAYED the Sith and she BETRAYED the Jedi.  She is not red because she hates both.  She hates the Force, dark AND light.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hate is the mark of the dark side and of the Sith. Kreia, in KotOR2, was a Sith.

 

That she hated the other Sith and did not seek power for her own sake as they did is immaterial - she tried to force her own convictions and desires upon the rest of the galaxy, regardless of the consequences or wishes of others. That's evil.

 

Besides, I can think of few people who make for a more brutal force-wielder than Kreia - she uses it indiscriminately and without restraint whenever it suits her purposes. Just because she is smart and sly like Sidious and unlike most other Sith lords does not mean that she is not evil or not a Sith. She was a Sith and acted like one. Her motives don't matter - she did what she did, and good and evil is decided by what you do, what actions you take, not what excuses you can make for them.

[Zelean]

if adhering to the jedi code is the light side, then the light side has lost its advantages. the dark side is bad but the light side (if you listen to the jedi) isn't so great either....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like to compare the jedi code to the Bible and the order to the Church.

 

They are all guidance, guidelines how to live and fulfill your life. Do good. In both cases you can go astray if that be your choice.

 

Naturally the Jedi Knights are more likely to be tempted to fall to the other side, because they deal with stuff that are not meant for one person alone to experience (rem. Jesus). I thought the idea of "wounds" genuinely interesting.

Power, fear and love are very powerful emotions for a human to control so it's quite natural to me that the jedi masters rave on and on: "Fear leads to the dark side" et al.

 

Trying to understand something beyond your plane of existence

[Zelean]

Kreia: "I realize that you have traveled alone ever since the Mandalorian Wars, but that time of self-reflection is over....and if you cannot see beyond yourself and your own needs, then you should know that I have the only means of accessing the Ebon Hawk's navicomputer. Without it, we both are trapped here."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, I remember this one! I just looove the self-reflection part. Where was this? On Peragus? Kreia.dlg?

I'll play the devil's advocate and claim that by "means" she meant T3, which was legally in her care. See, no lies.

 

 

I think a point of disagreement between is that I actually think Kreia knew all about the Exile even here and came purposefully to use him as a pawn in her war against the force. I think that before she meant to use Nihilus to destroy the force, but when he and Sion kicked her out, she came looking for the Exile instead. But I admit that is conjecture. Still, even if it is not the case, I still speculate that Kreia knows more than she lets on even here - she always seems to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Conjecture or not I think we all here have been debating ideas behind ideas the writers never thought of themselves. But such is the nature of interpretation...

 

Now, I am truly surprised because it feels we agree on how much Kreia manipulated with people around her.

Granted you understand her as a liar whereas I think she only uses the truth to her own end (!= gain). Consequently you think she is selfish, evil; I think she's hopeful and daring.

 

 

Not exactly. Both the jedi (who belong to the order and follow the code) and the gray jedi (who do neither) believe in doing good. The difference, as I see it, is that the jedi believe that belonging to the order and following the code is a means by which to do good, and possibly the only one. The gray jedi do not agree with this philosophy - to them the code and the order can and often is just as flawed as anything else created by people, and cannot be counted on to truly do good. Gray jedi probably believe that strict adherence to the code can lead you astray as much as anything, since jedi may think they're somehow "safe" from the dark side as long as they follow the code. Atris would be a good example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course human creation cannot be perfect.

I don't believe that the jedi believe the code is the only possible way, but that they don't dare to walk those other ways. After all they *may* lead to the dark side. And that is enough.

As for Atris, I'm quite sure doubt and fear overcame her during and after the Mandalorian Wars and she was aware of that. So she desperately turns for help to those holocrons. She has no will to choose. The Exile can hint at this to her which knocks her out totally:

 

E: [Awareness] Your anger... is it because you secretly wish you'd had the strength to follow me to war?

A: {Surprised}What? What do you mean?"

 

Also, I accept how you define the grey jedi above. It is something I relate to in life.

Still, from the perspective of the Force there can only be Jedi or Sith. People do good or they do evil.

So if you're saying that the grey Jedi are only outcasts from the order then you take Jedi's point of view which is legitimate. See, I have always had the bigger picture in mind.

Which leads me to a question: shouldn't there be a gray Sith, then?

 

 

That doesn't make much sense to me - why would she try to destroy something she doesn't believe in? Besides, Kreia knows the force is real, since she constantly uses it herself. Like Ahab, who is at war with God (represented by a white whale), Kreia is at war with the force. That war is pointless if she doesn't believe. She must believe for her struggle to have any meaning.

 

And I do not think she is outside of good and evil. It is your actions that defines whether you're good or evil, and Kreia constantly does nasty things to people by manipulating and sacrificing them to serve her own goals. She may not want power for herself (unlike most Sith), but the conditions that she is trying to bring about are probably undesirable to people also, and yet Kreia doesn't consider that for a second as she tries to accomplish her goals. So she clearly puts her own desires over the well-being of others, which is a very evil thing to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aahhh, but to break free of course! Even she