KotoR 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[Jediphile]

No, I don't think so. You're certainly above level 3 (or at least has xp for that) by the time you get Bastila in the party, and given how much Jolee has experienced, it makes no sense IMHO that you have as much say in his "creation" as you do in Juhani's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Holding back on levels causes weird problems according to what I read on the Bioware boards a while ago.

 

I suppose not. But since the alternative is to have no say in the creation at all (like autolevel up) it's understandable why it works that way.

 

Technically it makes no sense that you have any say in anyones creation but your own. But it's one of those gameplay tradeoffs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The real problem is that d20 game balance demands that all the characters are the same level, or else you get some really odd combinations, where one character is far stronger than the others. The reason for that is how d20 assigns power by levels only, so Jolee has got to be the same level as everybody else no matter how silly that is. It would not have been a problem in a skill-based game, since you could just have given him lots of levels in various skills, but not in lightsaber combat.

 

But that distinction is not possible in d20, which leads to has some really idiotic consequences. For example, the PnP rulebook lists Vader at the beginning of RotJ as Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6 for a total 18 levels. Very powerful. However, the book also lists Luke a little later than that (end of RotJ) as Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 7, leaving him as a 9th-level character. Yet we seen in the film how Luke defeats Vader with relative easy, despite Vader having twice as many levels. The chances of that under d20 rules are astronomical, especially when Vader has more Jedi Guardian levels than Luke does... Nope, I don't like d20.

[Grand Lord Revan]

You don't seem to distinguish between power levels dictated by the rules and strength of character. Sure, Revan wasn't so tough in K1, since he had to take several levels as a non-jedi (minimum of 2, but usually it's around 8 or 9), while he was allowed to take jedi levels only up to 20.

 

That doesn't mean he's a weakling, though. You did finish the game with what you had, even though you had less jedi levels than Bastila, Juhani, or Jolee. That he could do that is one reason why Revan is powerful. Another is that he was able to "learn" (which meant redicsover, but he didn't know that at the time) the jedi ways in a few weeks only. He was also able to resist the dark side far better than Bastila - if Revan goes DS in K1, then it's because he chooses to, not because he fails to resist.

 

But a big problem in all this is still the way d20 experience levels translates into power and character growth in the game, which is not always pretty. I mean, just look at the other jedi - they are all supposed to be jedi of many years of training, yet Bastila was only 3rd level, Juhani 6th, and Jolee also 6th when they join the party. Why is young, inexperienced Juhani as experienced by the rules as old Jolee, who has certainly seen and experienced a lot in his time? Simple - because game balance demanded it... No, I don't think it's very satisfying either, but that what's what you're stuck with if you use d20 rules (which is one reason why I dislike them).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I fully agree with you. I think that you - ShadowPaladin V1.0 - are just focusing on the game structure of experience and strength and relating it to the powerfullness of Revan. This is a fault as this is just the game part. As Jediphile said Revan was more than just this level classification. In the real Star Wars System there is no experience level 20 etc. for Jedi. This thing applies just for the game, although the char Revan, exile and Bastila etc. are fixed char in the SW-World.

 

Once again, the experience levels do not state the strength of Reven & Co. Jediphile has put it nicely in his/her statement.

 

In a Star Wars lexicon is stated that "Revan proved to be not only one of the most powerful Jedi in history, but also a master tactician." "Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat." (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Revan)

Edited March 7, 2006 by Grand Lord Revan

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I fully agree with you. I think that you - ShadowPaladin V1.0 - are just focusing on the game structure of experience and strength and relating it to the powerfullness of Revan. This is a fault as this is just the game part. As Jediphile said Revan was more than just this level classification. In the real Star Wars System there is no experience level 20 etc. for Jedi. This thing applies just for the game, although the char Revan, exile and Bastila etc. are fixed char in the SW-World.

 

Once again, the experience levels do not state the strength of Reven & Co. Jediphile has put it nicely in his/her statement.

 

In a Star Wars lexicon is stated that "Revan proved to be not only one of the most powerful Jedi in history, but also a master tactician." (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Revan)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course I am. Thats where the reality of an RPG world comes from, the rules. If I jump off 100 ft cliff but there are no falling rules. Then the character won't take any damage. Likewise is someone tells me a dragon is a monster to be feared (but the rules make it an easy kill) then the dragon is an easy kill regardless of what anyone says.

 

Ditto with Revan, Kreia can say what she likes about Revan being pure power. But unless the rules reflect it, well it's just not true.

 

Anything else, well thats just hype.

[Grand Lord Revan]

Of course I am. Thats where the reality of an RPG world comes from, the rules.

 

But we are not talking about the technical side of the game and the RPG realisation. We are talking about the history of KOTOR and the characters that have a fixed place in the SW history.

 

Well, it seems to be that you don't know what I am trying to say. My viewpoint has nothing to do with the "hype". The historian view of Revan is given in the Expanded Universe of SW by GL and not by chosing some features in the game and experience levels.

[Guest The Architect]

Table 1 Latest Poll Standings

 

K (38)

I (36)

J (16)

F (15)

A (

L (7)

N (6)

H (5)

M (4)

B (4)

E (3)

D (2)

G (2)

O (2)

C (2)

 

 

Table 2 Latest Poll Standings

 

R) 77

Q) 50

P) 18

 

Vote counts are collected and updated from LucasArts, Obsidian, IMDb and BioWare Forums as well as through PM's I receive...

Edited March 7, 2006 by The Architect

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But we are not talking about the technical side of the game and the RPG realisation. We are talking about the history of KOTOR and the characters that have a fixed place in the SW history.

 

Well, it seems to be that you don't know what I am trying to say. My viewpoint has nothing to do with the "hype". The historian view of Revan is given in the Expanded Universe of SW by GL and not by chosing some features in the game and experience levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In a game thats exactly what we are talking about since everything in a game is measured. As I said you have fallen for the hype , where as the game rules reflect the reality.

 

Kind of like the whole chosen one thing in EPIII. Powerful , sure. But he still got his arse kicked by Obi Wan. The chosen one hype. The reality a charcoal briquette missing a couple of limbs.

[Guest The Architect]

In a game thats exactly what we are talking about since everything in a game is measured. As I said you have fallen for the hype , where as the game rules reflect the reality.

 

Kind of like the whole chosen one thing in EPIII. Powerful , sure. But he still got his arse kicked by Obi Wan. The chosen one hype. The reality a charcoal briquette missing a couple of limbs. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know what you mean...

[astr0creep]

But we are not talking about the technical side of the game and the RPG realisation. We are talking about the history of KOTOR and the characters that have a fixed place in the SW history.

 

Well, it seems to be that you don't know what I am trying to say. My viewpoint has nothing to do with the "hype". The historian view of Revan is given in the Expanded Universe of SW by GL and not by chosing some features in the game and experience levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In a game thats exactly what we are talking about since everything in a game is measured. As I said you have fallen for the hype , where as the game rules reflect the reality.

 

Kind of like the whole chosen one thing in EPIII. Powerful , sure. But he still got his arse kicked by Obi Wan. The chosen one hype. The reality a charcoal briquette missing a couple of limbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What makes Anakin the Chosen One anyway? How does he bring balance to the force? And shouldn't K3 take this on? The PC in K3 (without being a Chosen One) bringing balance to the force by exterminating all the Sith and at the end of the game you end up with 1 Jedi and 1 Sith, both in hiding? His story becomes legend and 4000 years later the legend becomes a prophecy. That would be cool, no?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What makes Anakin the Chosen One anyway? How does he bring balance to the force? And shouldn't K3 take this on? The PC in K3 (without being a Chosen One) bringing balance to the force by exterminating all the Sith and at the end of the game you end up with 1 Jedi and 1 Sith, both in hiding? His story becomes legend and 4000 years later the legend becomes a prophecy. That would be cool, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some Jedi prophecy. Well you could say by reducing the number of Jedi to the same as the number of Sith. Although I guarentee it's not what the Jedi had in mind when they read the thing

 

Don't they have all that other EU crap though with Jedi running around all over the place?

[astr0creep]

What makes Anakin the Chosen One anyway? How does he bring balance to the force? And shouldn't K3 take this on? The PC in K3 (without being a Chosen One) bringing balance to the force by exterminating all the Sith and at the end of the game you end up with 1 Jedi and 1 Sith, both in hiding? His story becomes legend and 4000 years later the legend becomes a prophecy. That would be cool, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some Jedi prophecy. Well you could say by reducing the number of Jedi to the same as the number of Sith. Although I guarentee it's not what the Jedi had in mind when they read the thing

 

Don't they have all that other EU crap though with Jedi running around all over the place?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

EU made Star Wars a confused mess and GL killed it all with 3 movies. Yippee!

[NadiaZeta]

what a like me for KOTOR III?

1. To have influence on your companions is a good idea, return to do it n.n.

2, New planets Corusant is a good idea.

3. New allies.

4. New Caracter PC, Revan and the Exile Well ve very strong like having them like protagonists.

5, Previous caracter who you can handle, Atton, Mission.

6. The encounter of Revan and his ejem like, who to say to them? lovers? o.o Bastila Shan/Carth Onassi.

7. That at certain moment you can use to Revan and the Exile.

8. In order to have an excellent appearance with the caracter who chose in both games, serious prudent to put images previous that chose for Revan and the Exile, although to litle Revan if to alter = D not short long hair but some scars. Good serious everything = D

[Jediphile]

In a game thats exactly what we are talking about since everything in a game is measured.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan is consistently described as a strategic mastermind. How was that measured in K1? He was also said to have resolute leadership abilities and was famous or at least notorious. How was this measured? BG at least had a reputation stat...

 

Kind of like the whole chosen one thing in EPIII. Powerful , sure. But he still got his arse kicked by Obi Wan. The chosen one hype. The reality a charcoal briquette missing a couple of limbs. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan, but he didn't have as much hands-on experience, and he was acting out of anger and hatred, which makes people do stupid things. If he hadn't tried that jump just to prove his own superiority, things might have turned out quite different. It's scarcely as if Obi-Wan was toying with him.

[Jediphile]

What makes Anakin the Chosen One anyway? How does he bring balance to the force?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The prophecy of the jedi says that he would destroy the sith and bring balance to the force. And he did in RotJ by destroying the emperor and himself. As all prophecies, it just didn't come about in the way many had thought.

 

And shouldn't K3 take this on? The PC in K3 (without being a Chosen One) bringing balance to the force by exterminating all the Sith and at the end of the game you end up with 1 Jedi and 1 Sith, both in hiding? His story becomes legend and 4000 years later the legend becomes a prophecy. That would be cool, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, thanks.

[Jediphile]

what a like me for KOTOR III?

1. To have influence on your companions is a good idea, return to do it n.n.

2, New  planets Corusant is a good idea.

3. New allies.

4. New Caracter PC, Revan and the Exile Well ve very strong like having them like protagonists.

5, Previous caracter who you can handle, Atton, Mission.

6. The encounter of Revan and his ejem like, who to say to them? lovers? o.o Bastila Shan/Carth Onassi.

7. That at certain moment you can use to Revan and the Exile.

8. In order to have an excellent appearance with the caracter who chose in both games, serious prudent to put images previous that chose for Revan and the Exile, although to litle Revan if to alter = D not short long hair but some scars. Good serious everything = D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Agreed, but it needs to be implemented better than in K2. It made no sense that Handmaiden still lost influence when you did evil things after you had both become Sith, for example. Similarly, HK-47 still wanted to kill every meatbag in sight after I had given him LS mastery. Not good... But still a good idea, it just broken in some areas and needs to be fixed.

 

2. We all seem to want Coruscant. At least, I cannot remember anyone saying that they didn't want to see Coruscant in K3.

 

3. Obviously. I would prefer the number of companions to be smaller, though - you don't need half of them anyway. At least, I never used T3 in K1 or GOTO in K2...

 

4. Finally someone who sees it the same way I do. We seem to be in the minority, though.

 

5. The problem with the old characters is that they might have ended up in different places depending on your final LS/DS choice in the game. For example, Atton could be a Sith or a Jedi by the end of K2, and Mission is dead if Revan was DS. That makes it pretty difficult write a story that takes it into account. That said, I have voiced support for both of those in my own preferred plot, though Atton was not playable, and Mission was only playable for at short time.

 

6. If Revan is in there, then the love interest in K1 is more than likely to be touched upon, I think.

 

7. Yes. I wanted them both to be playable at the climax/finale of the game.

 

8. I think you should be able to choose both gender, alignment, appearance and jedi class for both Revan and Exile.

 

Welcome to the forum.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Revan is consistently described as a strategic mastermind. How was that measured in K1? He was also said to have resolute leadership abilities and was famous or at least notorious. How was this measured? BG at least had a reputation stat...

 

Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan, but he didn't have as much hands-on experience, and he was acting out of anger and hatred, which makes people do stupid things. If he hadn't tried that jump just to prove his own superiority, things might have turned out quite different. It's scarcely as if Obi-Wan was toying with him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There in lies the problem. Since as we already concluded there are many different Revans as players (in subtle ways). Since his stats were at the players choosing I expect you had more than a few with the IQ of turnip :D Since he was injured though his mental faculties could be completely changed. (From strategic genius to turnip) since they are talking about the general of the war and not what was left after he was "killed" on the ship.

 

Well once everyone knew who he was that was somewhat reflected in game by how people reacted to you.

 

Obi Wan didnt want to kill him.seems pretty clear, even at the end he still didnt either force push him into the lava , or just simply take off his head as he jumped, which is a much easier stroke. So not toying with him perhaps, but lacking the commitement for the killing blow.

[Jediphile]

There in lies the problem. Since as we already concluded there are many different Revans as players (in subtle ways). Since his stats were at the players choosing I expect you had more than a few with the IQ of turnip :D Since he was injured though his mental faculties could be completely changed. (From strategic genius to turnip) since they are talking about the general of the war and not what was left after he was "killed" on the ship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually no. You could not take a stat below 8 in K1, which is only just below average. So a turnip is out of the question :D

 

Okay, I'll take another example. How were any of the following measure in K1?

 

- Carth's piloting abilities.

- Canderous' ruthlessness.

- T3's computer-hacking skills (Mission wasn't allowed to open the door to the Sith base on Taris)

- Zaalbar's sense of loyaty to his life debt.

- Mission's friendship with Zaalbar (she left her home to go with him).

- HK-47's desire to kill "meatbags"

- Bastila's immaturity.

- Juhani's volatile nature.

 

Obi Wan didnt want to kill him.seems pretty clear, even at the end he still didnt either force push him into the lava , or just simply take off his head as he jumped, which is a much easier stroke. So not toying with him perhaps, but lacking the commitement for the killing blow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You think the state he left Anakin in was merciful compared to death?

[astr0creep]

There in lies the problem. Since as we already concluded there are many different Revans as players (in subtle ways). Since his stats were at the players choosing I expect you had more than a few with the IQ of turnip :D Since he was injured though his mental faculties could be completely changed. (From strategic genius to turnip) since they are talking about the general of the war and not what was left after he was "killed" on the ship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually no. You could not take a stat below 8 in K1, which is only just below average. So a turnip is out of the question :D

 

Okay, I'll take another example. How were any of the following measure in K1?

 

- Carth's piloting abilities.

- Canderous' ruthlessness.

- T3's computer-hacking skills (Mission wasn't allowed to open the door to the Sith base on Taris)

- Zaalbar's sense of loyaty to his life debt.

- Mission's friendship with Zaalbar (she left her home to go with him).

- HK-47's desire to kill "meatbags"

- Bastila's immaturity.

- Juhani's volatile nature.

 

Obi Wan didnt want to kill him.seems pretty clear, even at the end he still didnt either force push him into the lava , or just simply take off his head as he jumped, which is a much easier stroke. So not toying with him perhaps, but lacking the commitement for the killing blow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You think the state he left Anakin in was merciful compared to death?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Could it possibly be a... plothole???

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually no. You could not take a stat below 8 in K1, which is only just below average. So a turnip is out of the question :D

 

Okay, I'll take another example. How were any of the following measure in K1?

 

- Carth's piloting abilities.

- Canderous' ruthlessness.

- T3's computer-hacking skills (Mission wasn't allowed to open the door to the Sith base on Taris)

- Zaalbar's sense of loyaty to his life debt.

- Mission's friendship with Zaalbar (she left her home to go with him).

- HK-47's desire to kill "meatbags"

- Bastila's immaturity.

- Juhani's volatile nature.

 

You think the state he left Anakin in was merciful compared to death?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now your talking about personality (with the exception of Carth) which is a whole different thing. Those are reflected in the dialogue and the actions those characters take. When I talk about rules I am talking about rules I am talking about how they create the reality of the setting. Such as how lethal a lightsaber is. Or how much Revan sucks or does not depening on how you build him. Although never does he live up to the hype.

 

A better question would be how do you know that Canderous was ruthless.

 

But lets say Carth (since it's based on a skill) tells you he's a great pilot but then Carths piloting skill is 1. Carths clearly not a great pilot.

In the case of T-3 you must have needed one of those R2 type probes. Although I'm not making excuses for lame plot devices.

 

When rules and hype clash rules always win.Because rules dictate the reality of everything in an RPG from how deadly a weapon is, to whether or not you can die from falling off a building.

 

So you have people telling you how great Revan was. But whatever is left after the "accident" dosnt back that up at all. Therefore Revan is no longer that great.

 

Heres another thing to muse since you brought up Kreias explanation of what happened in KOTOR. If the Jedi never actually rewrote his memory. Then where did all these abilities disapear to ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Could it possibly be a... plothole???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well obviously the scene was written to allow a certain outcome. In the WEG book they have Anakin hanging onto the bridge with his one remaining hand and Obi Wan trying to pull him up. Then Anakin falls into the lava below and Obi Wan never see's him land.

 

Obi Wan dosnt cut his legs off . They burn up because he lands on a platform but his legs go over the side into the lava.

[astr0creep]

Could it possibly be a... plothole???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well obviously the scene was written to allow a certain outcome. In the WEG book they have Anakin hanging onto the bridge with his one remaining hand and Obi Wan trying to pull him up. Then Anakin falls into the lava below and Obi Wan never see's him land.

 

Obi Wan dosnt cut his legs off . They burn up because he lands on a platform but his legs go over the side into the lava.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Before Ep3 was released, there was a rumor saying that Obi decapitated Anakin, making the only human part of Vader his head.

I thought this outcome was much better than what we ended up with.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Before Ep3 was released, there was a rumor saying that Obi decapitated Anakin, making the only human part of Vader his head.

I thought this outcome was much better than what we ended up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you build a life support suit for a cauterised head ?

[Jediphile]

Could it possibly be a... plothole???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well obviously the scene was written to allow a certain outcome. In the WEG book they have Anakin hanging onto the bridge with his one remaining hand and Obi Wan trying to pull him up. Then Anakin falls into the lava below and Obi Wan never see's him land.

 

Obi Wan dosnt cut his legs off . They burn up because he lands on a platform but his legs go over the side into the lava.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I missed in that scene was Obi-Wan overcoming his own sense of compassion and trying to force-push Anakin into the lava to prevent the Sith from growing more poweful from Anakin's strength. Anakin should then have prevented that by pushing back, leaving Obi-Wan no choice but to simply leave - Anakin may have lost his arm and legs, but not his force powers.

 

I mean, Obi-Wan set out to destroy Anakin, to kill him. Basically he slipped up. A scene like the above would have settled that, while also underscoring Anakin's powers even in such a condition.

[astr0creep]

Before Ep3 was released, there was a rumor saying that Obi decapitated Anakin, making the only human part of Vader his head.

I thought this outcome was much better than what we ended up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you build a life support suit for a cauterised head ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you destroy Star Wars?

[Jediphile]

Before Ep3 was released, there was a rumor saying that Obi decapitated Anakin, making the only human part of Vader his head.

I thought this outcome was much better than what we ended up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you build a life support suit for a cauterised head ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Probably the same way they did with Simus in The Golden Age of the Sith comic books... Not that I voice support for the idea, mind you - that was pretty silly

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That from the same timeline as force whips and golden space barges?