KotoR 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Hahaha, the Flip flop way.

Nah, it isn't flip flop. How many times have you seen and read Star Wars Shadow Paladin. You have seen so many ways how Jedi fall Dark Side, turn light again etc. I even read a fanfic on kotorfanmedia were the force ghost of Revan meets Anakin while he is on his way to Mustafar.

What does Anakin say when Revan introduced himself: "O yeah, you are the one who couldn't stop switching sides"  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The only movie character would be Vader. You could just about justify him not being able to bear seeing his son suffer (although he seemed happy enough to lop his hand off) would trigger some spark of humanity that the emporer hadnt destroyed. He dosnt really flip flop though Vader was headed for the Darkside from the time he murdered those sand

The sort of flip flop you would be talking about would be Obi Wan (or Yoda) going darkside and then becoming good again. And that's just really silly.

 

Dont know about the EU but it kind of makes nonsense of Yoday saying "Once you start down the dark path,forever will it dominate your destiny" if you can change sides as easily as changing your robes.

 

Fanfics are hardly what you would call official material are they?

[hawk]

Hahaha, the Flip flop way.

Nah, it isn't flip flop. How many times have you seen and read Star Wars Shadow Paladin. You have seen so many ways how Jedi fall Dark Side, turn light again etc. I even read a fanfic on kotorfanmedia were the force ghost of Revan meets Anakin while he is on his way to Mustafar.

What does Anakin say when Revan introduced himself: "O yeah, you are the one who couldn't stop switching sides"  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The only movie character would be Vader. You could just about justify him not being able to bear seeing his son suffer (although he seemed happy enough to lop his hand off) would trigger some spark of humanity that the emporer hadnt destroyed. He dosnt really flip flop though Vader was headed for the Darkside from the time he murdered those sand

The sort of flip flop you would be talking about would be Obi Wan (or Yoda) going darkside and then becoming good again. And that's just really silly.

 

Dont know about the EU but it kind of makes nonsense of Yoday saying "Once you start down the dark path,forever will it dominate your destiny" if you can change sides as easily as changing your robes.

 

Fanfics are hardly what you would call official material are they?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, okay.

But how do you know that the sort of flip flop I am talking about would be silly. Off course there has to be a good reason which I admit am not good enough in but a professional writer would be.

Now, I am not going to post my idea about why Revan must have turned LS in the Unknown Regions and why the Exile turned DS. I think even when I made it the reasons were not good enough. But if a professional writer get it in his head to just kill Revan and the Exile? THEN I AM GOING TO THROW BRICKS THROUGH THE WINDOWS OF THE LUCASARTS OFFICE AND THE CO DEVELOPERS OFFICE. You have been warned Obsidian! :D :D :D

Off course I didn't mean that, but I would be very dissappointed

Edited March 5, 2006 by hawk

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Okay, okay.

But how do you know that the sort of flip flop I am talking about would be silly. Off course there has to be a good reason which I admit am not good enough in but a professional writer would be.

Now, I am not going to post my idea about why Revan must have turned LS in the Unknown Regions and why the Exile turned DS. I think even when I made it the reasons were not good enough. But if a professional writer get it in his head to just kill Revan and the Exile? THEN I AM GOING TO THROW BRICKS THROUGH THE WINDOWS OF THE LUCASARTS OFFICE AND THE CO DEVELOPERS OFFICE. You have been warned Obsidian!    :D  :D  :D

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Avellone is a good writer (at least I think so, some disagree) but he's said in interviews he dosnt like writing other people's characters.

 

Oh I'm sure they would give them a good send off. Just not in a way that required a fixed identity.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Heres something for you to muse over..

 

If the Jedi counsel gave Revan a false identity then why would they give him one predisposed to evil ?

 

And if that is Revans true personality re-emerging when you start the game on Tarsis(as some have suggeseted as a counter to the above). Then why can you continue to be lightside?

[Jediphile]

Heres something for you to muse over..

 

If the Jedi counsel gave Revan a false identity then why would they give him one predisposed to evil ?

 

And if that is Revans true personality re-emerging when you start the game on Tarsis(as some have suggeseted as a counter to the above). Then why can you continue to be lightside?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia: "Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

You got your answer right there. And what was under that surface is what you get to decide in KotOR1.

[Dacen Vellia]

Kreia: "Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Dialogues in KotOR II, especially those with Kreia, were better than those in KotOR I.

[hawk]

Which is why the Jedi Civil war had stopped when Revan killed Malak and destroyed the StarForge, either at the same time or later.

When you think about it, even the Exile can make a sacrifice to the DS, kill the Jedi masters who exiled you but where also some kind of threat to the republic (stripping of the Exile form the force, had they succeeded) And Nihilus could have killed everyone on Telos.

 

Sorry Shadow that it is 3 against 1 for you now. Well, I guess you can handle that, right.

[alanschu]

Darth Vader happy he chopped off Luke's hand?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Kreia: "Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

You got your answer right there. And what was under that surface is what you get to decide in KotOR1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not really an answer though is it. Kreia there is saying that Revan is a "goodguy" despite his methods. Which I agree with in part. It dosnt really explain the sort of petty cruelties that KOTOR allows you to indulge in. There is no greater good there.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Which is why the Jedi Civil war had stopped when Revan killed Malak and destroyed the StarForge, either at the same time or later.

When you think about it, even the Exile can make a sacrifice to the DS, kill the Jedi masters who exiled you but where also some kind of threat to the republic (stripping of the Exile form the force, had they succeeded) And Nihilus could have killed everyone on Telos.

 

Sorry Shadow that it is 3 against 1 for you now. Well, I guess you can handle that, right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The war stopped because the leader was dead and the base of production destroyed.

 

Although according to the DS ending Revan then went and took over. Since KOTOR II had to have a fixed start point. Whatever you did in KOTOR had the same outcome.

 

There are many instances where you can use the DS for the "greater good". Rarely will my characters end up at either extreme. But there are also acts in the games which you can't justify in that way.

 

You could of course claim it's the darkside controlling your actions if you feel so inclined.

 

The purpose wasnt to "win" The purpose was to highlight the difficulty that introducing all these variables into KOTOR III would involved.

 

Architects words sum it up nicely.

 

ShadowPaladin V1.0, I see where your coming from. Although it is possible to make a K3 story that could work that covers all gender and alignment combo's of Revan and the Exile, like I've done and hawk has done and Jediphile has done, it might just take too much writing, too much work, and K3 needs to be more of an individual game that doesn't rely on what happened during the previous two installments too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Grand Lord Revan]

Maybe, I have fallen for the Revan hype  (w00t), but why did we all play Revan and why was s/he so important if Juhani or Jolee could have done the job so easily? Was he just important to get the plans for the Star Forge? Why must s/he leave to face the True Sith if Juhani or Jolee could have done it?

 

So, there must be a point why Revan was so crucial for the stability of the galaxy and why s/he was the pratagonist in the game.

 

I don't think I lost my sense for reality  .

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Simple enough. The CRPG structure required a character for which the player could make choices. Pre gen characters dont work here because they already have a personality. The exception being if you wipe that personality out , usually through amnesia (must like PST).

 

You were needed to find the Star Forge that's all. Beyond that, like I said any of your Jedi companions could have easily taken down Malak. There was nothing special about you that meant you were the only one who could do it.

 

Had they not found the Star Forge and destroyed it , then Malak would have won. Thats your "crucial" role. But all the key plotpoints revolve around Bastilla in some fashion. Even the choice of good or evil, all tied to Bastila.

 

Revan's a lot like Drizzt. The hype far exceeds the reality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I still can't agree to your viewpoint. True, the structure of the game required a figure with whom you can make choices. But that doesn't eliminates the fact that s/he was a.) much stronger than Bastila, who was just a young jedi, b.) had a special fate to fulfill that affected the whole galaxy and the future and c.) had knowledge and abilities that didn't have the rest of his co-chars.

 

I do see it quite impartial and not ignoring facts because of the "hype". But that is the history of Kotor. It's not a history about Bastila. Sorry. It seems that you are on a Bastila hype . You really underestimate Revans role in the hole KOTOR-plot. He was to face the True Sith, not Bastila. Juhani and Jolee were to weak for this fight. Revan was much stronger than they were.

 

But if a professional writer get it in his head to just kill Revan and the Exile? THEN I AM GOING TO THROW BRICKS THROUGH THE WINDOWS OF THE LUCASARTS OFFICE AND THE CO DEVELOPERS OFFICE. You have been warned Obsidian!

 

I suscribe to that! That would make me extremely disappointed!

Edited March 6, 2006 by Grand Lord Revan

[astr0creep]

What if they die in a very heroic way? Like saving babies from being eaten by a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or entering a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the device, saving the galaxy one last time, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute puppy at their side?

Edited March 6, 2006 by astr0creep

[hawk]

What if they die in a very heroic way? Like saving babies from being eaten by a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or entering a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the device, saving the galaxy one last time, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute puppy at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they wouldn't do that if they were DS.

[astr0creep]

What if they die in a very heroic way? Like saving babies from being eaten by a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or entering a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the device, saving the galaxy one last time, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute puppy at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they wouldn't do that if they were DS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fine:

 

What if they die in a very evil way? Like killing babies using a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or producing a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the center star of the galaxy, killing the galaxy once and for all, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute prostitute at their side?

[hawk]

What if they die in a very heroic way? Like saving babies from being eaten by a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or entering a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the device, saving the galaxy one last time, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute puppy at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they wouldn't do that if they were DS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fine:

 

What if they die in a very evil way? Like killing babies using a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or producing a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the center star of the galaxy, killing the galaxy once and for all, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute prostitute at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:D From one extreme to the other. Come on, there are a lot of simple ways to keep them alive and give them a central role in the game.

[astr0creep]

What if they die in a very heroic way? Like saving babies from being eaten by a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or entering a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the device, saving the galaxy one last time, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute puppy at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they wouldn't do that if they were DS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fine:

 

What if they die in a very evil way? Like killing babies using a supertarantatek or sumthin? Or producing a destructive beam of superconcentrated energy and destroying the center star of the galaxy, killing the galaxy once and for all, in a blaze of glory, as lovers, brother and sister, father and son and with a cute prostitute at their side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:D From one extreme to the other. Come on, there are a lot of simple ways to keep them alive and give them a central role in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. There isn't. This is the third part of a trilogy. Therefore a conclusion must be made, a major change and/or event must take place. Killing all 3 Knights of the Old Republic is the most dramatic ending possible and should be adopted, end of discussion, closing this thread forever thank you and goodnight.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I still can't agree to your viewpoint. True, the structure of the game required a figure with whom you can make choices. But that doesn't eliminates the fact that s/he was a.) much stronger than Bastila, who was just a young jedi, b.) had a special fate to fulfill that affected the whole galaxy and the future and c.) had knowledge and abilities that didn't have the rest of his co-chars.

 

I do see it quite impartial and not ignoring facts because of the "hype". But that is the history of Kotor. It's not a history about Bastila. Sorry. It seems that you are on a Bastila hype  . You really underestimate Revans role in the hole KOTOR-plot. He was to face the True Sith, not Bastila. Juhani and Jolee were to weak for this fight. Revan was much stronger than they were.

 

But if a professional writer get it in his head to just kill Revan and the Exile? THEN I AM GOING TO THROW BRICKS THROUGH THE WINDOWS OF THE LUCASARTS OFFICE AND THE CO DEVELOPERS OFFICE. You have been warned Obsidian!

 

I suscribe to that! That would make me extremely disappointed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dosnt matter. Agreement isnt important.

 

Is Revan strong ? The hype says yes. But the truth is, it's all in the build of the characters. It's a simple matter to make Bastilla stronger. And Jolee would have had an easier time with Malak in my game since I focused on my warrior side (which meant I had to kill Malak every time he recharged since I couldnt do anything to that tanks). I recall some people having to plant mines to beat Malak, so their Revan couldnt be called strong by any measure. And such is the problem when you are dealing with variables. At least with Drizzt there is a set of stats which are Drizzt. With Revan and the Exile, there are merely pieces which fit together to make a whole. And as such many many combinations.

 

When it comes to the Exile, there is firmer ground. The Exile has powers the others do not. But again that dosnt make them stronger than anyone else if you play around with the builds.

[hawk]

No. There isn't. This is the third part of a trilogy. Therefore a conclusion must be made, a major change and/or event must take place. Killing all 3 Knights of the Old Republic is the most dramatic ending possible and should be adopted, end of discussion, closing this thread forever thank you and goodnight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So certain are you?

[astr0creep]

No. There isn't. This is the third part of a trilogy. Therefore a conclusion must be made, a major change and/or event must take place. Killing all 3 Knights of the Old Republic is the most dramatic ending possible and should be adopted, end of discussion, closing this thread forever thank you and goodnight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So certain are you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I suppose there could be prequel games. With spinoffs in-between, like a christmas-themed special CD in cereal boxes and a couple of games starring Gizkas and children from earth, a cartoon series with HK and T3 and so on and so forth. (w00t)

[Jediphile]

Is Revan strong ? The hype says yes. But the truth is, it's all in the build of the characters. It's a simple matter to make Bastilla stronger. And Jolee would have had an easier time with Malak in my game since I focused on my warrior side (which meant I had to kill Malak every time he recharged since I couldnt do anything to that tanks). I recall some people having to plant mines to beat Malak, so their Revan couldnt be called strong by any measure. And such is the problem when you are dealing with variables. At least with Drizzt there is a set of stats which are Drizzt. With Revan and the Exile, there are merely pieces which fit together to make a whole. And as such many many combinations.

 

When it comes to the Exile, there is firmer ground. The Exile has powers the others do not. But again that dosnt make them stronger than anyone else if you play around with the builds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don't seem to distinguish between power levels dictated by the rules and strength of character. Sure, Revan wasn't so tough in K1, since he had to take several levels as a non-jedi (minimum of 2, but usually it's around 8 or 9), while he was allowed to take jedi levels only up to 20.

 

That doesn't mean he's a weakling, though. You did finish the game with what you had, even though you had less jedi levels than Bastila, Juhani, or Jolee. That he could do that is one reason why Revan is powerful. Another is that he was able to "learn" (which meant redicsover, but he didn't know that at the time) the jedi ways in a few weeks only. He was also able to resist the dark side far better than Bastila - if Revan goes DS in K1, then it's because he chooses to, not because he fails to resist.

 

But a big problem in all this is still the way d20 experience levels translates into power and character growth in the game, which is not always pretty. I mean, just look at the other jedi - they are all supposed to be jedi of many years of training, yet Bastila was only 3rd level, Juhani 6th, and Jolee also 6th when they join the party. Why is young, inexperienced Juhani as experienced by the rules as old Jolee, who has certainly seen and experienced a lot in his time? Simple - because game balance demanded it... No, I don't think it's very satisfying either, but that what's what you're stuck with if you use d20 rules (which is one reason why I dislike them).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You don't seem to distinguish between power levels dictated by the rules and strength of character. Sure, Revan wasn't so tough in K1, since he had to take several levels as a non-jedi (minimum of 2, but usually it's around 8 or 9), while he was allowed to take jedi levels only up to 20.

 

That doesn't mean he's a weakling, though. You did finish the game with what you had, even though you had less jedi levels than Bastila, Juhani, or Jolee. That he could do that is one reason why Revan is powerful. Another is that he was able to "learn" (which meant redicsover, but he didn't know that at the time) the jedi ways in a few weeks only. He was also able to resist the dark side far better than Bastila - if Revan goes DS in K1, then it's because he chooses to, not because he fails to resist.

 

But a big problem in all this is still the way d20 experience levels translates into power and character growth in the game, which is not always pretty. I mean, just look at the other jedi - they are all supposed to be jedi of many years of training, yet Bastila was only 3rd level, Juhani 6th, and Jolee also 6th when they join the party. Why is young, inexperienced Juhani as experienced by the rules as old Jolee, who has certainly seen and experienced a lot in his time? Simple - because game balance demanded it... No, I don't think it's very satisfying either, but that what's what you're stuck with if you use d20 rules (which is one reason why I dislike them).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well since all characters are created by the same rule set the power level is relative. Could Revan with a particular build wipe out Dark Jedi with a wave of his hand ? Yep. But then so could Jolee or any of the others depending on how they were developed.

 

It's one thing to fall for the hype machine. But that still needs to be reflected by the rules system , which are after all the measure of the "reality" of an RPG. If not for the save feature 99% of the Revan's out there would be nothing more than carbon on the galaxy floor.

 

Don't the levels in KOTOR depend on your level after all they come unleveled soley so you have some say in how they are created.

[Jediphile]

Don't the levels in KOTOR depend on your level after all they come unleveled soley so you have some say in how they are created.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't think so. You're certainly above level 3 (or at least has xp for that) by the time you get Bastila in the party, and given how much Jolee has experienced, it makes no sense IMHO that you have as much say in his "creation" as you do in Juhani's.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

No, I don't think so. You're certainly above level 3 (or at least has xp for that) by the time you get Bastila in the party, and given how much Jolee has experienced, it makes no sense IMHO that you have as much say in his "creation" as you do in Juhani's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Holding back on levels causes weird problems according to what I read on the Bioware boards a while ago.

 

I suppose not. But since the alternative is to have no say in the creation at all (like autolevel up) it's understandable why it works that way.

 

Technically it makes no sense that you have any say in anyones creation but your own. But it's one of those gameplay tradeoffs.

[hawk]

Well, I guess it's a good time to refresh results:

 

Who would you want to be in Kotor III:

 

1) Revan

2) The Exile

3) Revan

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I am a bit amazed by the fact that some people wanted Revan as the next PC. But, I guess a force sensitive born in the Outer Rim undiscovered by the Jedi is a very good idea. Yeah, 3 votes and it will enable us to play as a different species and you are not some person related to one we know.

No lost powers as well. Yeah, I can understand why.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not. If you wanted a game to make the fanbois gush you just make Revan a PC and stick a 99 level cap in. I'm hoping Obsidian want a little more than that though (if they do KOTOR III that is).

 

Stick in a happy ever after with Bastila for bonus points.