next-gen console action RPG by Liquid Ent.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

That's what i thought but talk is cheap.

It was *your* idea. You favored the concept so much it just seemed you had something in particular in mind. Apparently not,

 

I favored the concept of the development of titles that, wheter action RPGs or not, would provide enough capital to fund computer RPGs. It just so happened that action RPGs were the genre brought up by the first post where it was detailed the release of one such game.

 

And how have console action RPGs been particularly successful thus far?

 

I believe titles like Fable, the Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance series, and Phantasy Star Online, to name a few, have been fairly successful and most have been increasingly successful. The development of sequels would suggest so, at least.

 

Has there been any console action RPG  that has out-sold KotOR?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More than 2.5 million units? Not that I know of. Fable sold over 1 million units, although reportedly it sold over 375,000 units in its first week, while Knights had only sold 270,000 in its first two weeks.

 

Of course, this doesn't mean action RPGs are not successful, or that their development would not generate a comfortable amount of revenue that would allow to finance the development of "real" RPGs, as you called them. Knights of the Old Republic was an exceptions to the rule, like Morrowind also was. Maybe companies could properly develop computer roleplaying games for consoles but most don't have as much access to the kind of advertisement, production values and/or successful licenses that KoTOR and Morrowind had. Trying to break into the market as KoTOR and Morrowind did isn't easy, and it's certainly not open to everybody. If someone dives headlong into such an attempt without having a considerable financial backup, then they can lose a whole deal; but if someone does have that financial backup (provided by whatever former development of whatever successful genre), such a failure might be overcome or better handled.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Role-Player

[Lancer]

Fable is not an action RPG.

 

The point is, Roleplayer, that both Morrowind and KotOR (and even Fable) are far from being "mainstream" RPGs and yet they generated substantial revenue and outsold any of the action RPGs you mentioned. I don't think that creating "mainstream" RPGs (whatever that concept means) such as action RPGs is the answer in providing the financial resources to make PC RPGs.

 

I believe that we should experiment with different types of RPGs, no doubt, but I don't think action RPGs or other "mainstream" RPGs are necessarily the answer.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

Unless people are buying multiple games when they purchase this keyboard, the initial cost is applied just to the single game.  You're being too optimistic if you think people will immediately feel that their investement in the keyboard will open up many new games.

 

I never said this. I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable.

 

If you do need a keyboard for interface, the only way Western RPGs are becoming a sizeable market is if the consoles start shipping with keyboards (or some other input that addresses the interface).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then.

 

What you are talking about here is more of a "preference" issue than an interface issue. We need to attack their psyche first, before worrying about the hardware.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Welcome to the Catch-22. If you don't have suitable input to play the games, no interest will grow. But if you don't have suitable interest, no one is going to make suitable input.

[Lancer]

Unless people are buying multiple games when they purchase this keyboard, the initial cost is applied just to the single game.  You're being too optimistic if you think people will immediately feel that their investement in the keyboard will open up many new games.

 

I never said this. I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable.

 

If you do need a keyboard for interface, the only way Western RPGs are becoming a sizeable market is if the consoles start shipping with keyboards (or some other input that addresses the interface).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then.

 

What you are talking about here is more of a "preference" issue than an interface issue. We need to attack their psyche first, before worrying about the hardware.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Welcome to the Catch-22. If you don't have suitable input to play the games, no interest will grow. But if you don't have suitable interest, no one is going to make suitable input.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The point that some of you are not getting is the following:

 

The interface issue is not really much of an issue. If there is interest in creating a full line-up of PC-style RPGs on consoles, they will address that problem. Those of you that bring in the i"interface issue" as if it were some sort of showstopper for occidental RPGs on consoles, don't really understand producer-consumer relationships.

 

If there is sufficient demand for a product, that product will be made

Edited February 13, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

I didn't bring up the interface issue. If you seriously thought it was zero issue, then why did you spend pages of threads even discussing it?

 

 

And yes, if there is sufficient demand for a product it will be made. But how do you generate the demand if there isn't any?

 

And then you accuse me of not understanding producer-consumer relationships?

[Lancer]

I didn't bring up the interface issue.  If you seriously thought it was zero issue, then why did you spend pages of threads even discussing it?

 

No you didn't, but Nartwak did. And you agreed with him about it being an issue. So I spent pages of threads saying explaining how I think it isn't because the REAL issue is getting console players to play occidental RPGs. Once that's taken care of, the hardware will come naturally.

 

 

And yes, if there is sufficient demand for a product it will be made.  But how do you generate the demand if there isn't any?

 

Now that is the point right? And it comes down to developers breaking into the market by creating console RPGs that console gamers would play..That is their job and my hope is that they will be successful

 

And then you accuse me of not understanding producer-consumer relationships?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never accused you. Re-read my statement, it was done in a general sense. Though you may understand the relastionships, it is possible others don't.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

No you didn't, but Nartwak did.  And you agreed with him about it being an issue. So I spent pages of threads saying explaining how I think it isn't because the REAL issue i getting console players to play occidental RPGs. Once that's taken care of, the hardware will come naturally.

 

By acknowleding that "hardware will come naturally" implies that you recognize that the hardware is an issue as well. So then the hardware does create an issue (otherwise it would not come naturally....as it would never come at all).

 

And yes, if there is sufficient demand for a product it will be made.  But how do you generate the demand if there isn't any?

 

Now that is the point right? And it comes down to developers breaking into the market by creating console RPGs that console gamers would play..That is their job and my hope that they will be successful

 

Aren't they already doing that? Many people buy the FF games, and it's probably the most successful RPG franchise.

 

And then you accuse me of not understanding producer-consumer relationships?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never accused you. Re-read my statement, it was done in a general sense. Though you may understand the relastionships, it is possible others don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You said:

Those of you that bring in the i"interface issue" as if it were some sort of showstopper for occidental RPGs on consoles, don't really understand producer-consumer relationships.

 

Given you have already stated that (up in the first quote) I agree with him about it being an issue, by making a "general" claim about a category of people I belong to, you are still accusing me. You just happen to be accusing other people as well.

 

 

In any case, I do feel that one of the main reasons why we've never seen a game with a style like Baldur's Gate or Torment on a console is because of interface issues. A game like KOTOR has had its interface significantly streamlined compared to other Western RPG games. And I think a big reason why it (and Morrowind) sold so much is because of licenses (at least in the part of KOTOR), and a complete lack of competition. If you start pumping out the RPGs, the market becomes much more competitive and people stop making them.

[Plano Skywalker]

IIRC, one of the reasons that MS is pursuing more RPGs is because they actually believe they can sell their consoles in Japan. They believe that a lack of good console RPGs for the Xbox is one of the main factors the platform did not sell well in Japan.

 

Whether this translates into good, occidental RPGs is a really good question. It might mean adventure games with stats (i.e. JRPG clones).

 

Guess we will find out soon enough.

[Lancer]

By acknowleding that "hardware will come naturally" implies that you recognize that the hardware is an issue as well.  So then  the hardware does create an issue (otherwise it would not come naturally....as it would never come at all).

 

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence.

 

You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier.

 

Much more significant is making the occidental RPG a large market on consoles. THAT will require much effort, time, and resources indeed. KotOR and Morrowind are a great start, but we have a looong ways to go before the console is a recognized platform of choice (like the PC) for playing occidental RPGs. I want occidental RPGs to start competing with JRPGS.. Long ways to go.

 

Maybe you don't care or see the expediency of having occidental RPGs on consoles and are complacent with them mostly being on the PC. And I guess that is fine.. But for me, I think it is a critical step to ensure the survival of the genre. And I see consoles as onther medium into which the PC-style RPG can flourish into.

 

Aren't they already doing that? Many people buy the FF games, and it's probably the most successful RPG franchise.

 

I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already.

 

 

And I think a big reason why it (and Morrowind) sold so much is because of licenses (at least in the part of KOTOR), and a complete lack of competition.  If you start pumping out the RPGs, the market becomes much more competitive and people stop making them.

 

So lets keep on pumping.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Lancer

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Fable is not an action RPG.

 

Yet it largely plays like one.

 

The point is, Roleplayer, that both Morrowind and KotOR (and even Fable) are far from being "mainstream" RPGs and yet they generated substantial revenue and outsold any of the action RPGs you mentioned.

 

Morrowind (or at least several aspects of it), Knights of the Old Republic and Fable are very much set on, or possessing of, characteristics which make them familiar and more acceptable by the masses (ie, mainstream). Knights of the Old Republic has a recognizable license which has allowed many products, from films to other videogames, to strike commercial success on multiple fronts. And all three of them have gameplay elements which have seen very similar variations, and acceptance, over the years in other console games.

 

Also, I know those games succeeded and sold more than other contemporary console action RPGs. I got it the first time, thank you very much. Then again, most traditional console roleplaying games also tend to outsell console action RPGs. And? Again, these games are exceptions. There's a considerable number of computer-styled games on consoles which have failed to succeed; Diablo on the Playstation and Deus Ex: The Conspiracy on the Playstation 2 certainly didn't. The point is that a computer-styled RPG in consoles is likely to not be as successful as a console action RPG on account of the style of RPGs usually seen on consoles. I have little doubt, for instance, that Knights and Morrowind would have had the same success on the Playstation 2 that it had on X-Box. The consumers are different, the console mentality is different, the roleplaying games in gameplay and design are largely different.

 

I don't think that creating "mainstream" RPGs (whatever that concept means) such as action RPGs is the answer in providing the financial resources to make PC RPGs.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. You're certainly free to think as much. However the point I've made back there still remains that computer-styled RPGs on consoles are not guaranteed to succeed. You have two successful examples, one of which was using a strong intellectual property to back it up. And besides the three possible conditioning factors I've mentioned, you can also pile upon them the fact that the console for which they were developed is not aimed at the general bulk of console gamers, which lies with Sony. Developing computer-styled games for a console which has many computer-styled roleplaying games to begin with or that promotes that approach is obviously going to work better than developing computer-styled roleplaying games for a console which doesn't. Not a terrible great plot twist there. But expecting them to work or succeed on all major console platforms needs more than two examples.

 

(whatever that concept means)

 

If you're hinting at not knowing what the concept means then why did you apply it to Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic and Fable? Hopefully not just because I did the same.

 

I believe that we should experiment with different types of RPGs, no doubt, but I don't think action RPGs or other "mainstream" RPGs  are necessarily the answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe, even if there's little to go by from available sources, that consoles can in fact have a considerable market share which enjoys and demands computer-styled roleplaying games and that developing them will eventually phase out the computer/console dichotomy when it comes to genres. However, I also think that if a company is planning on doing this they need proper financing and planning, and the former can be obtained by developing 'mainstream' (or commercialy successful, if you will) titles which can provide a long term commercial support; although by no means it is the only way to achieve the necessary revenue.

[Plano Skywalker]

another thing to consider is that, while the "crossover console" (has a keyboard and mouse and runs Windows) did not make it this generation, you can bet that it is eventually coming.

 

convergence is happening and will continue to happen.

[Lancer]

another thing to consider is that, while the "crossover console" (has a keyboard and mouse and runs Windows) did not make it this generation, you can bet that it is eventually coming.

 

convergence is happening and will continue to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, you are right Plano.. Again hardware considerations are not the issue.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

By acknowleding that "hardware will come naturally" implies that you recognize that the hardware is an issue as well.  So then  the hardware does create an issue (otherwise it would not come naturally....as it would never come at all).

 

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence.

 

You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier.

 

Apparently we do. If you wish to take a narrow definition of an issue, then that is your perogative. If quality occidental RPGs do in fact require a specialized controller (even if it is just a keyboard), then they are already at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much of a technological challenge it is (it isn't one). If you don't see it as a barrier, then I think you are being way too optimistic. For instance, Ocarina of Time sold over almost 8 million units, while Majora's mask (requiring the memory expansion pak) failed to even sell half that many. Sure, you can look back and say "oh, it still sold over 3 million units" but relatively speaking, it was no where near the success of the original. The same can be said for Perfect Dark. Despite being superior in almost every way to GoldenEye, it was immediately handicapped by requiring the "cheap" expansion pak. Both of these franchises had gobs of fans, and I find a 50% drop off of sales to be a bit extreme. Furthermore, I was an active part of N64 community at the time, so I was there actually listening to people complain about the expansion pak requirements. You could see it in stores where people were buying the games, and as people got frustrated by buying a game without realizing that they needed EXTRA stuff to go with it. Working in retail, I had seen people change their mind when they found out the game required a separate expansion pak...often they'd go and pick a different game too. Sure it's anecdotal, but I would be surprised if my store was any more unusual than the majority of outlets that sell video games. Technological barriers for peripherals were never a real issue.

 

Much more significant is making the occidental RPG a large market on consoles. THAT will require much effort, time, and resources indeed. KotOR and Morrowind are a great start, but we have a looong ways to go before the console is a recognized platform of choice (like the PC) for playing occidental RPGs. I want occidental RPGs to start competing with JRPGS.. Long ways to go.

 

It may also not be possible.

 

Maybe you don't care or see the expediency of having occidental RPGs on consoles and are complacent with them mostly being on the PC. And I guess that is fine.. But for me, I think it is a critical step to ensure the survival of the genre. And I see consoles as onther medium into which the PC-style RPG can flourish into.

 

Don't talk down to me. I've stated my desire to keep the PC RPG games alive, as they are my favourite games, and I've also supported the RPG mainstay's (like the Bioware's, Black Isle/Obsidians, etc) foray's into the console market to exploit its consumer base. Of course I see the importance of it becoming popular. It was never what we are discussing though. All you did here was state the obvious. No kidding it needs to become more popular. But ignoring issues such as whether or not people will require additional peripherals to take advantage of the game type is just walking around with blinders on.

 

The "issues" with expanding the occidental RPGs onto consoles are whatever could hinder the expansion of the market. If you think additional (i.e. not included with every console) peripherals is not an issue, then you have tunnel vision and are focusing so much on one aspect that you'll end up ignoring the other aspects simply because "they should take care of themselves." And because of this, I really don't think you have any place criticizing people for their understanding of "producer-consumer relationships."

 

Aren't they already doing that? Many people buy the FF games, and it's probably the most successful RPG franchise.

 

I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already.

 

Do we? Always seems to be plenty of demand for JRPGs. You have to make sure to not include your personal bias in such statements. I bet if the situation was reversed, you wouldn't be complaining about an overabundance of occidental RPGs. The market demand dictates how many we should have in development. For instance, you mentioned that Sega tried many occidental RPGs for its system. How come they quit making them?

 

 

And I think a big reason why it (and Morrowind) sold so much is because of licenses (at least in the part of KOTOR), and a complete lack of competition.  If you start pumping out the RPGs, the market becomes much more competitive and people stop making them.

 

So lets keep on pumping.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess my point wasn't all that clear. The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition. If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then.

 

Though I mentioned that if you start pumping them out, it becomes more competitive so people will stop making the games (these things ARE cyclical by the way), so your recommendation was to keep on pumping?

Edited February 13, 2006 by alanschu

[Llyranor]

Well, the keyboard/mouse/controller issue is going to remain one unless the former two become an industry standard for consoles. Players may not want to get an extra peripheral for just one game, but if there's a good selection of such titles making use of the peripheral, the temptation would be much greater. Having entire game genres unavailable in your console just because of the restrictive controller is kind of stupid. Would console gamers not be able to enjoy a good RTS, if they had the proper tools to maneuver it efficiently? A peripheral is just one thing. Some games 'sell systems'.

 

This peripheral/controller crap is why I have to applaud the Revolution. Nice and quite bold move from Nintendo. Gotta respect that. I could see myself maybe wanting to play a few titles on PS3/360, but those would be titles I would rather just play on the PC if they were available. I could easily see myself getting into Rev-exclusive titles unique to the system.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I could easily see myself getting into Rev-exclusive titles unique to the system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Join ussss.....

[Llyranor]

Heh, I just might step into the console world again for the Rev. Nintendo WiFi is another neat little thing.

 

A good online swordfighting game will pretty much confirm the sell.

 

Also, I want to play an action FPS with this:

Edited February 13, 2006 by Llyranor

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Great stuff

[metadigital]

I thought the whole point of the whole consoles-don't-come-with-keyboards-argument was that playing console games with mouse and keyboard would seriously detract from the experience and won't even be possible for many setups.

 

I do not want to have a mouse and keyboard when sitting on my coach with only a coffee table in front. Or when sitting in a couch-chair with no table at all in front of me.

 

In the case of RPGs it's probably the mouse-functionality that is missed the most rather than a lot of buttons on a keyboard (I don't think I use more buttons in any RPG than there are on the average gamepad). So the revolution controller is going to be very interesting indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely spot on.

 

This is a much better scenario.

 

Keyboards aren't made for a console; they wouldn't work in the environment and they would have the exact opposite result, namely detracting from the games' appeal.

Well, the keyboard/mouse/controller issue is going to remain one unless the former two become an industry standard for consoles. Players may not want to get an extra peripheral for just one game, but if there's a good selection of such titles making use of the peripheral, the temptation would be much greater. Having entire game genres unavailable in your console just because of the restrictive controller is kind of stupid. Would console gamers not be able to enjoy a good RTS, if they had the proper tools to maneuver it efficiently? A peripheral is just one thing. Some games 'sell systems'.

 

This peripheral/controller crap is why I have to applaud the Revolution. Nice and quite bold move from Nintendo. Gotta respect that. I could see myself maybe wanting to play a few titles on PS3/360, but those would be titles I would rather just play on the PC if they were available. I could easily see myself getting into Rev-exclusive titles unique to the system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A better interface is needed.

 

Perhaps that is the Ninty controller? Time will tell. I hope so ...

[Llyranor]

Well, the keyboard/mouse per say isn't what's needed, they just need to up the functionality from the restrictive gamepad. a FPS using a revie controller could be made pretty fun. A RTS would be possible, though you'd need to be creative somehow.

[Lancer]

By acknowleding that "hardware will come naturally" implies that you recognize that the hardware is an issue as well.  So then  the hardware does create an issue (otherwise it would not come naturally....as it would never come at all).

 

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence.

 

You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier.

 

Apparently we do. If you wish to take a narrow definition of an issue, then that is your perogative. If quality occidental RPGs do in fact require a specialized controller (even if it is just a keyboard), then they are already at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much of a technological challenge it is (it isn't one). If you don't see it as a barrier, then I think you are being way too optimistic. For instance, Ocarina of Time sold over almost 8 million units, while Majora's mask (requiring the memory expansion pak) failed to even sell half that many. Sure, you can look back and say "oh, it still sold over 3 million units" but relatively speaking, it was no where near the success of the original. The same can be said for Perfect Dark. Despite being superior in almost every way to GoldenEye, it was immediately handicapped by requiring the "cheap" expansion pak. Both of these franchises had gobs of fans, and I find a 50% drop off of sales to be a bit extreme. Furthermore, I was an active part of N64 community at the time, so I was there actually listening to people complain about the expansion pak requirements. You could see it in stores where people were buying the games, and as people got frustrated by buying a game without realizing that they needed EXTRA stuff to go with it. Working in retail, I had seen people change their mind when they found out the game required a separate expansion pak...often they'd go and pick a different game too. Sure it's anecdotal, but I would be surprised if my store was any more unusual than the majority of outlets that sell video games. Technological barriers for peripherals were never a real issue.

 

Much more significant is making the occidental RPG a large market on consoles. THAT will require much effort, time, and resources indeed. KotOR and Morrowind are a great start, but we have a looong ways to go before the console is a recognized platform of choice (like the PC) for playing occidental RPGs. I want occidental RPGs to start competing with JRPGS.. Long ways to go.

 

It may also not be possible.

 

Maybe you don't care or see the expediency of having occidental RPGs on consoles and are complacent with them mostly being on the PC. And I guess that is fine.. But for me, I think it is a critical step to ensure the survival of the genre. And I see consoles as onther medium into which the PC-style RPG can flourish into.

 

Don't talk down to me. I've stated my desire to keep the PC RPG games alive, as they are my favourite games, and I've also supported the RPG mainstay's (like the Bioware's, Black Isle/Obsidians, etc) foray's into the console market to exploit its consumer base. Of course I see the importance of it becoming popular. It was never what we are discussing though. All you did here was state the obvious. No kidding it needs to become more popular. But ignoring issues such as whether or not people will require additional peripherals to take advantage of the game type is just walking around with blinders on.

 

The "issues" with expanding the occidental RPGs onto consoles are whatever could hinder the expansion of the market. If you think additional (i.e. not included with every console) peripherals is not an issue, then you have tunnel vision and are focusing so much on one aspect that you'll end up ignoring the other aspects simply because "they should take care of themselves." And because of this, I really don't think you have any place criticizing people for their understanding of "producer-consumer relationships."

 

Aren't they already doing that? Many people buy the FF games, and it's probably the most successful RPG franchise.

 

I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already.

 

Do we? Always seems to be plenty of demand for JRPGs. You have to make sure to not include your personal bias in such statements. I bet if the situation was reversed, you wouldn't be complaining about an overabundance of occidental RPGs. The market demand dictates how many we should have in development. For instance, you mentioned that Sega tried many occidental RPGs for its system. How come they quit making them?

 

 

And I think a big reason why it (and Morrowind) sold so much is because of licenses (at least in the part of KOTOR), and a complete lack of competition.  If you start pumping out the RPGs, the market becomes much more competitive and people stop making them.

 

So lets keep on pumping.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess my point wasn't all that clear. The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition. If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then.

 

Though I mentioned that if you start pumping them out, it becomes more competitive so people will stop making the games (these things ARE cyclical by the way), so your recommendation was to keep on pumping?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dude, There is no need to talk to me in a condescending tone. If you wish to get a civil response from me, I expect it from you in return.

 

Anyhow, as I was reading your entire manifesto which you obviously put a lot of effort into writing, I could only smile because you are bringing in all this talk about peripherals left and right when I nowhere mentioned in any of my posts on this thread about advocating any sort of ancillary add-ons of any sort whatsoever.

 

Believe me, I am fully aware of what happened to Sega Genesis, Sega CD and 32X and how you can confuse a fanbase with all sorts of random add-ons.. I don't need an entire lecture on the matter, thank you very much.

 

I was actually thinking more along the lines of re-designing the base controller so that it would be more user-friendly for all sorts of games, including occidental RPGs. Maybe some sort of keyboard/controller or mouse/controller hybrid? I dunno, but it would sure make for an interesting design. No extra peripherals, add-ons or anything, just innovative design with what is already given.

 

Also, as for why Sega doesn't make occidental RPGs anymore. That is exactly the issue... again. Again, it goes back to how much larger the JRPG market is and how there is just much more appeal to developers to go that route, financially. I do agree, that I am selfish in a way, (don't we all want our favorite things to be on top?) and I want MY favorite genre to flourish and if possible at the expense of JRPGs. I don't deny that at all. But then again, it is all about competition and survival of the fittest.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

Well, the keyboard/mouse/controller issue is going to remain one unless the former two become an industry standard for consoles. Players may not want to get an extra peripheral for just one game, but if there's a good selection of such titles making use of the peripheral, the temptation would be much greater. Having entire game genres unavailable in your console just because of the restrictive controller is kind of stupid. Would console gamers not be able to enjoy a good RTS, if they had the proper tools to maneuver it efficiently? A peripheral is just one thing. Some games 'sell systems'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is another possibility if you are adamant about peripherals.

[Lancer]

Oh and BTW, thought these needed replying too..

 

The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition.

 

Ummm.. says who? There are many other games that consumers could have purchased on the Xbox.

 

If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then.

 

I didn't mean pump games senselessly without any regard to the size of the target market or financial resources.

 

As the demand for console occidental RPGS, pump more and more games to keep up with the growing market.

 

JRPGS pump tons a games out and their companies seem to be doing just fine.

[alanschu]

Dude, There is no need to talk to me in a condescending tone. If you wish to get a civil response from me, I expect it from you in return.

 

Condescending tone? I suppose. I didn't mean to, but it seemed like you were talking down to me in your previous post as well, so it's not impossible that I had an edge to mine as well.

 

Anyhow, as I was reading your entire manifesto which you obviously put a lot of effort into writing, I could only smile because you are bringing in all this talk about peripherals left and right when I nowhere mentioned in any of my posts on this thread about advocating any sort of ancillary add-ons of any sort whatsoever.

 

Believe me, I am fully aware of what happened to Sega Genesis, Sega CD and 32X and how you can confuse a fanbase with all sorts of random add-ons.. I don't need an entire lecture on the matter, thank you very much.

 

About that condescending tone?

 

I was actually thinking more along the lines of re-designing the base controller so that it would be more user-friendly for all sorts of games, including occidental RPGs. Maybe some sort of keyboard/controller or mouse/controller hybrid? I dunno, but it would sure make for an interesting design. No extra peripherals, add-ons or anything, just innovative design with what is already given.

 

So then you are talking about redesigning the base "controller." In which case, it is still an issue, even by your definition, because you are still getting a catch-22. If you want the default controller to be acceptable for occidental RPGs, you're probably going to need occidental RPGs in order to justify the expense. But you're not going to get people making occidental RPGs if there isn't an appropriate controller for it. In fact, like most things, the support won't come unless the hardware comes first. It seems as though sorting out the controller issue is one of the more primary concerns.

 

Furthermore, assuming that the new controller needs to be a bit more elaborate (or whatever) in order to make occidental RPGs more usable (keeping in mind the previous points about environmental concerns that metadigital and Llyranor brought up), you run the risk of creating something that is too excessive for many console users. What's worse, is you are forcing it upon them. People that don't care about occidental RPGs are the new controller interface to the console will be less likely to buy it. Next thing you know, things are starting to look a bit more like the PC market anyways.

 

Also, as for why Sega doesn't make occidental RPGs anymore. That is exactly the issue... again. Again, it goes back to how much larger the JRPG market is and how there is just much more appeal to developers to go that route, financially. I do agree, that I am selfish in a way, (don't we all want our favorite things to be on top?) and I want MY favorite genre to flourish and if possible at the expense of JRPGs.   I don't deny that at all. But then again, it is all about competition and survival of the fittest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The reason I brought up Sega is because it seems as though the market has already made its decision about the viability of occidental RPGs on consoles. Though it has been a while and things may have changed.

 

 

Having said that, taking a brief glimpse over the thread it seems as though you are just sort of stating the obvious. You seem to be talking about what will happen IF occidental RPGs take up more of the market share. You also talk about how once the demand is there, the hardware and whatnot will take care of itself. You haven't really addressed HOW occidental RPGs will improve their market share, and maybe it's my fault in taking the discussion in that sense. Because when concerning HOW it is going to create market share, you absolutely cannot ignore things such as the controller, in addition to a myriad of other hardware concerns.

 

Furthermore, when it comes to game (and all software development), the software rarely pushes the hardware. Hardware issues don't "take care of themself" as you claim, as no one is going to make a game (or any software) that requires hardware that does not exist. It's too big of a gamble and millions of dollars go down the drain. Hardware innovation is driven by what the software developers want, which is a reflection of what customers want to an extent. But no game developer will make anything that doesn't have the hardware to support it. Assuming that current console controllers are indeed a barrier to playing occidental RPGs, you cannot penetrate the console market with occidental RPGs because they are inherently at a disadvantage. Which means you have to make compromises in the games, to the point where they probably aren't what we are hoping for in terms of RPG experiences. Is this actually progress towards what you're looking for, where the RPG games you want have to turn into RPG-lite just to get market penetration? Who's to say they don't just stick with the RPG-lite formula if it works, and if the RPG-lite formula is working, who's to say that the customers actually WANT it to evolve into a "true" occidental RPG?

 

Game developers can't just start releasing a few hundred Planescape: Torments on to the consoles and hope for the best.

[alanschu]

Oh and BTW, thought these needed replying too..

 

The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition.

 

Ummm.. says who? There are many other games that consumers could have purchased on the Xbox.

 

If an XBOX owner wanted to play an RPG, what selection did they really have to choose from?

 

If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then.

 

I didn't mean pump games senselessly without any regard to the size of the target market or financial resources.

 

As the demand for console occidental RPGS, pump more and more games to keep up with the growing market.

 

JRPGS pump tons a games out and their companies seem to be doing just fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is assuming the magical "market growth." I mean, I could say if suddenly adventure games had huge growth in market share, we could start pumping them out.

 

My post (that you were replying to) made no indication about an increase in market share, and basically stated that suddenly increasing the amount of occidental RPGs into the market could hurt it, to which you replied "start pumping away."

 

JRPG developers pump out tons of games because it's what the people want. If the people wanted occidental RPGs, then they'd be making them.

 

And I'm not buying that it's because there is a lack of occidental RPG games. You said yourself that Sega had plenty on their genesis. If those games were successful, we'd still get them on the consoles today.

[metadigital]

I want MY favorite genre to flourish and if possible at the expense of JRPGs.   I don't deny that at all. But then again, it is all about competition and survival of the fittest my favourites.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erratum amended.