Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well, you don't actually need gods to make the PCs think twice (though it does make violence on their part irrelevant - they gods are not going to care either way... In fact, they'd probably care less if the PCs are violent). To make the PCs think twice, give them a mission, where they have to protect some lowly 0-level character (in D&D terms) who is the daughter of some important family or who is significant to stopped a conflict for some reason. That way even the encounter with a group of orcs because lethal, because while the PCs will undoubtedly survive and win the battle, they can fail in their mission if the person they are to protect comes under attack even once. I once ran a scenario where the PCs had to defend and organize a small walled human village during an orcish attack. The PCs decided to make it a straight fight with the result that they won, but with all but a handful of the villagers (of 150+) were killed. They might have won the battle, but the players sure didn't feel much sense of victory... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...hmm this sounds interesting, but somehow I just have the vision having the same results like you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) You want some good ways for your PCs to think first before pulling out their swords? Here are some good tips: 1) Don't forget the "law" in your game. I mentioned this point before on these threads some time ago but it will definitely make your PCs think twice before attacking first. Say the PCs start slaightering orcs in an orc nation. The higher-up or ruler will surely take notice of this and it won't be before long that a horde of the best bounty hunters that the ruler has to spare will come after the PCs. Some of which may opt to assassinate them in their sleep rather than fight them one-on-one. Just think about this in real life terms. You can perform "crimes" and wanton acts of destruction but like in reality, most things come with a price and will one day come back to haunt you. PCs can attempt to cover their tracks once committing an atrocious act but the enemy can launch investigation teams, find clues, and track down the PCs with appropriate force. Remember this: The PCs always seem to have a good habit of uncovering the villain's plans, tracks, and what not.. Why can't the bad guys do the same thing? Imagine the surprise on the PCs' faces when the General of the Orcish army came upon hard-to-find evidence which disclosed the location of the PC hometown? Imagine the horror on the PCs' faces when the enemies do a background check and find out whom the PC's loved ones are.. And if the PCs do a frontal assault, they will have no remorse sacrificing these loved ones? The GM can so easily blackmail and frame the PCs and keep them in check. Use these powerful tools at your disposal. Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 .... ... ..hmm.. ) ... ^_^ ..this is goood..khm, I mean baaad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) Another good tip: 2) Goblins and orcs have brains too! People tend to use weakling races such as "goblins" and "orcs" as cannon fodder. It is alright to use them in this manner sometimes, but sometimes it is better to show off their muscle too. Remember that goblins and orcs (particularly goblins as per the MM) are extremely tactical creatures and tend to use the environment to their advantage. Use these "weak" monsters to set up all manner of traps and ingenious fomations and pseudo-military tactics. Even a large group of wimpy goblins can give a 10th level party a run for their money... For example, say the PCs infiltrate the location of a goblin camp but the savvy creatures instead of ganging up on the far stronger PCs, decide to lure them into a narrow and very DARK tunnel--creating a bottleneck. Let's close the entrance once the PCs are inside... Now, goblins have infravision so they will be able to see. Unbeknownst to the PCs, the goblins have devised a lot of small holes on the ceilings and walls that only they can fit in through. Then just have a bunch of goblin archers pummel them with arrows coming from the ceiling, from little holes in the walls and from every which way. Put in a couple of traps the PCs step in just to complicate things further...Maybe a lava pit, here or there... Remember this is a narrow corridor so you can significantly reduce the number of attacks the PCs can launch back.. Not only that, but unless they have the appropriate spell ,item, an elf, or a blindfighting proficiency, most or all of them will have major penalties to their attack rolls since they can't see. In fact, they won't for a while know where the arrows are coming from. The PCs will be in utter panic. So much so that even if they happen to survive, this will force them to stop executing frontal assaults and use their brains more next time. Because the PCs realize that even 1st level creatures can kill them with a coordinated attack, they will realize for the first time that their characters are indeed mortal and vulnerable. As a result, your players will respect and fear battle more and will be hesitant to attack right away the next time. They will be open to using less combat-oriented methods such as talking or stealth. Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) Another good tip: 2) Goblins and orcs have brains too! People tend to use weakling races such as "goblins" and "orcs" as cannon fodder. It is alright to use them in this manner sometimes, but sometimes it is better to show off their muscle too. Remember that goblins and orcs (particularly goblins as per the MM) are extremely tactical creatures and tend to use the environment to their advantage. Use these "weak" monsters to set up all manner of traps and ingenious fomations and pseudo-military tactics. Even a large group of wimpy goblins can give a 10th level party a run for their money... For example, say the PCs infiltrate the location of a goblin camp but the savvy creatures instead of ganging up on the far stronger PCs, decide to lure them into a narrow and very DARK tunnel--creating a bottleneck. Let's close the entrance once the PCs are inside... Now, goblins have infravision so they will be able to see. Unbeknownst to the PCs, the goblins have devised a lot of small holes on the ceilings and walls that only they can fit in through. Then just have a bunch of goblin archers pummel them with arrows coming from the ceiling, from little holes in the walls and from every which way. Put in a couple of traps the PCs step in just to complicate things further...Maybe a lava pit, here or there... Remember this is a narrow corridor so you can significantly reduce the number of attacks the PCs can launch back.. Not only that, but unless they have the appropriate spell ,item, an elf, or a blindfighting proficiency, most or all of them will have major penalties to their attack rolls since they can't see. In fact, they won't for a while know where the arrows are coming from. The PCs will be in utter panic. So much so that even if they happen to survive, this will force them to stop executing frontal assaults and use their brains more next time. Because the PCs realize that even 1st level creatures can kill them with a coordinated attack, they will realize for the first time that their characters are indeed mortal and vulnerable. As a result, your players will respect and fear battle more and will be hesitant to attack right away the next time. They will be open to using less combat-oriented methods such as talking or stealth. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I actually LOVE using smart enemies: One (uh, I mean a duo) of my favorites is a goblin cleric of Bane and a Hobgoblin Illusionist, they're fun, and very evil (the PC-s did not take them the first/second/3rd game seriously, but after the eleventh dead PC they realized they were wrong about 'lesser' races ) Edited January 30, 2006 by jorian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) And here is my last tip for today: 3) There is always something bigger and grander than the PCs. If the PCs are the strongest, most powerful beings in your campaign you may be doing it a major disservice. Instead take a hint from the Planescape setting and always have a healthy dose of rulers, and higher-up NPCs that can kick the PC's a$$es. If the PCs gets full of themselves, and they think they can get away with stuff, have the appropriate NPC hand their butt to them on occasion. Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 And here is my last tip for today: 3) There is always something bigger and grander than the PCs. If the PCs are the strongest, most powerful beings in your campaign you can be doing it a major disservice. Instead take a hint from the Planescape setting and always have a healthy dose of rulers, and higher-up NPCs that can kick the PC's a$$es. If the PCs gets ****y, and they think they can get away with stuff, have the appropriate NPC hand their butt to them on occasion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What enemies do you suggest at lvl 12-22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) And here is my last tip for today: 3) There is always something bigger and grander than the PCs. If the PCs are the strongest, most powerful beings in your campaign you can be doing it a major disservice. Instead take a hint from the Planescape setting and always have a healthy dose of rulers, and higher-up NPCs that can kick the PC's a$$es. If the PCs gets ****y, and they think they can get away with stuff, have the appropriate NPC hand their butt to them on occasion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What enemies do you suggest at lvl 12-22? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I GM using the Mystara setting. And converted to AD&D rules, Level 20 would theoretically be the highest that the PCs can achieve. Beyond that point, the only way to get much more powerful would be to achieve Immortality. So in my case, things would be handled a bit differently but.... If you are allowing epic level campaigns via 3.x edition rules then I would suggest using the avatars of powerful Gods or very , very powerful and intelligent dragons as appropriate villains. At THAT level, I am assuming that the PCs would be challenging demigods rather than mere mortal villains. Unless in your particular campaign, epic level NPCs are relatively common. If not, then I would look at demons, devils, divine avatars, and immensely powerful and intelligent red dragons as villains. And an extremely ancient red dragon would make an *awesome* villain. Imagine all the tricks up his sleeve he would have in his lair! Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hmm...is an ancient red not pink? Becouse of his/her age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) The old Van Richten Guidebooks had excellent guidelines on designing extremely powerful vampires, ghosts, lycanthropes among other creatures guaranteed to fluster your high level party. But regardless, even at high levels, many of the tips that myself and others have mentioned in this thread would all still be applicable. Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hmm...is an ancient red not pink? Becouse of his/her age? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have never heard of a pink dragon. Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 'Van Richten Guidebooks' Where can I find them? Any link to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hmm...is an ancient red not pink? Becouse of his/her age? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have never heard of a pink dragon. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Red Ones are deep/dark red at birth, but color fades with age. Ergo: a 4-7 thousand years old Red dragon needs to be pink, nearly white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I am pretty sure these stores would have them: http://www.sentrybox.com/ Probably the best store in the universe for RPGs http://frpgames.irook.com/ http://www.hillcity-comics.com/ http://paizo.com/paizo http://www.rpgshop.com/ Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I am pretty sure these stores would have them: http://www.sentrybox.com/ Probably the best store in the universe for RPGs http://frpgames.irook.com/ http://www.hillcity-comics.com/ http://paizo.com/paizo http://www.rpgshop.com/ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> uh...any of them open here in Hungary?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 And here is my last tip for today: 3) There is always something bigger and grander than the PCs. If the PCs are the strongest, most powerful beings in your campaign you can be doing it a major disservice. Instead take a hint from the Planescape setting and always have a healthy dose of rulers, and higher-up NPCs that can kick the PC's a$$es. If the PCs gets ****y, and they think they can get away with stuff, have the appropriate NPC hand their butt to them on occasion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What enemies do you suggest at lvl 12-22? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The PCs in my campaign are all at levels 13-15, but though they like showing off their power, they've come to be cautious out of respect for my ability to create monster NPCs they can't handle. In one adventure they followed this lowly mage down a dungeon to a confrontation with a lich and his cronies (fire elementals, iron golems and a few demons (balor and merilith Tanar'ri)). During the entire confrontation, the lowly mage turned out to be a major enemy of the PCs (level 26 mage), and though they survived the fight, he took them all captive. Alternatively he would have just teleported away, leaving them behind to be killed by the lich and his cronies. At another time I created a sort of rival group of NPCs, who were all bounty hunters hired to capture the PCs. And they did. Their leader was a 25th level fighter. In an upcoming adventure, the PCs just might come face to face with the legendary orc-king Thar (Lancer will know who this is), who is (IMC) a 27th-fighter *and* 12th-level shaman. Oh, and he's a nosferatu-vampire too, only the PCs don't know that Let the PCs see they're great adventurers who can easily defeat a warband of 10 orcs, but don't be afraid to create more powerful enemy NPCs to deflate their egos a bit if the situation calls for it. I find this works best if the group is bested by a single enemy, but if not, then a coordinated group will do as well. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 And here is my last tip for today: 3) There is always something bigger and grander than the PCs. If the PCs are the strongest, most powerful beings in your campaign you can be doing it a major disservice. Instead take a hint from the Planescape setting and always have a healthy dose of rulers, and higher-up NPCs that can kick the PC's a$$es. If the PCs gets ****y, and they think they can get away with stuff, have the appropriate NPC hand their butt to them on occasion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What enemies do you suggest at lvl 12-22? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The PCs in my campaign are all at levels 13-15, but though they like showing off their power, they've come to be cautious out of respect for my ability to create monster NPCs they can't handle. In one adventure they followed this lowly mage down a dungeon to a confrontation with a lich and his cronies (fire elementals, iron golems and a few demons (balor and merilith Tanar'ri)). During the entire confrontation, the lowly mage turned out to be a major enemy of the PCs (level 26 mage), and though they survived the fight, he took them all captive. Alternatively he would have just teleported away, leaving them behind to be killed by the lich and his cronies. At another time I created a sort of rival group of NPCs, who were all bounty hunters hired to capture the PCs. And they did. Their leader was a 25th level fighter. In an upcoming adventure, the PCs just might come face to face with the legendary orc-king Thar (Lancer will know who this is), who is (IMC) a 27th-fighter *and* 12th-level shaman. Oh, and he's a nosferatu-vampire too, only the PCs don't know that Let the PCs see they're great adventurers who can easily defeat a warband of 10 orcs, but don't be afraid to create more powerful enemy NPCs to deflate their egos a bit if the situation calls for it. I find this works best if the group is bested by a single enemy, but if not, then a coordinated group will do as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmm...a warband of 10 orcs...and they're all over lvl 20...NICE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 These are all good ideas, but plz stay at the topic: adventures without bloodshed. Thanx :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) In an upcoming adventure, the PCs just might come face to face with the legendary orc-king Thar (Lancer will know who this is), who is (IMC) a 27th-fighter *and* 12th-level shaman. Oh, and he's a nosferatu-vampire too, only the PCs don't know that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Haha!.... awesome.. Is your campaign currently based in the Broken Lands or does that just happen to be one of the many nations they have traveled to in the Known World? Edited January 30, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 These are all good ideas, but plz stay at the topic: adventures without bloodshed. Thanx :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think if a level 13-15 party is confronted with a Level 20+ band of orcs then the PCs would resort to more diplomatic measures.. ..lol Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Let the PCs see they're great adventurers who can easily defeat a warband of 10 orcs, but don't be afraid to create more powerful enemy NPCs to deflate their egos a bit if the situation calls for it. I find this works best if the group is bested by a single enemy, but if not, then a coordinated group will do as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Definitely.. Being bested by a single enemy would deflate their egos even more! Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 These are all good ideas, but plz stay at the topic: adventures without bloodshed. Thanx :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think if a level 13-15 party is confronted with a Level 20+ band of orcs then the PCs would resort to more diplomatic measures.. ..lol <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yup, I hope so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Another thing.. A good site with all sorts of great tips for DMs/GMs is here: www. roleplayingtips.com Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Another thing.. A good site with all sorts of great tips for DMs/GMs is here: www. roleplayingtips.com <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Lance...hey lance ,are you interested in a 'forum RPG'? (i don't know the proper name for it, i already have a link to some samples here somewhere) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Another thing.. A good site with all sorts of great tips for DMs/GMs is here: www. roleplayingtips.com <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Lance...hey lance ,are you interested in a 'forum RPG'? (i don't know the proper name for it, i already have a link to some samples here somewhere) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would but I am too booked with school and research to make a serious committment now. Maybe in a month or so things will free up a bit! Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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