Taking turn base action out of RPGs...

[Judge Hades]

Never played System Shock 2. Played both Deus Ex games and they were good shooters.

 

Units are not classes. Sorry, please try again.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Never played System Shock 2.  Played both Deus Ex games and they were good shooters.

 

Units are not classes.  Sorry, please try again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A class is a fixed skill set.

 

A unit is a fixed skill set.

[BattleCookiee]

And to expand on that...

 

You talk about "skill builds"

 

Modern RTS like Generals and such also alow a basic "unit" to be upgraded on different ways to a more powerfull version, than a fixed "tank" to "tank with more armor/firepower in a package"

Edited December 8, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[Judge Hades]

Never played RTS games. Not my genre so I have no frame of reference to discuss them.

[alanschu]

Never played System Shock 2.  Played both Deus Ex games and they were good shooters.

 

Units are not classes.  Sorry, please try again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

System Shock 2 let you select 3 classes. Naval Marine, Army Soldier, and Psi-Ops Psionic.

 

 

What classes did Fallout let you be?

Edited December 8, 2005 by alanschu

[Judge Hades]

Sounds pretty limited. That was one of the things I disliked about the KotOR games. Very limited skills and class selections and you were forced to play a force user.

 

Fallout was a purely classless skill based system which I prefer in a CRPG, though ther ewere builds that can be classified as classes. Such as Combatboy, ScienceBoy, Stealthboy, and such.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Hades_One

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

System Shock 2 let you select 3 classes.  Naval Marine, Army Soldier, and Psi-Ops Psionic.

 

 

What classes did Fallout let you be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fallout was "classless" you could be any "class" you built a skill set for.

[alanschu]

Sounds pretty limited.  That was one of the things I disliked about the KotOR games.  Very limited skills and class selections and you were forced to play a force user.

 

Fallout was a purely classless skill based system which I prefer in a CRPG, though ther ewere builds that can be classified as classes.  Such as Combatboy, ScienceBoy, Stealthboy, and such.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

So why are System Shock's limited?

 

It's easily much more of a skill based system as well, as you are not bound by your choice (if you want your marine to develop psionic skills, have at it).

 

 

Deus Ex also had a classless, skill based system. You could be MeleeMan, HackerMan, StealthMan, and such.

Edited December 8, 2005 by alanschu

[alanschu]

System Shock 2 let you select 3 classes.  Naval Marine, Army Soldier, and Psi-Ops Psionic.

 

 

What classes did Fallout let you be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fallout was "classless" you could be any "class" you built a skill set for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I know that. Hades was using it as a reason why Silent Storm is a CRPG.

[BattleCookiee]

About system-shock. The 3 classes were just to give a little start.

 

The only difference was that they all got different boost before the actual "game".

 

Navy for Tech thingies

Psi for (logically) psi thingies

And Army to kill

 

You just had to choose between 3 doors everytime given you a boost to your lvl 0 character (for soldiers this would be stat, a weapon skill, and another combat maintance skill), and in the story you would be free to switch all 3 at any times.

 

It is basically the same system as DX, except for that you cannot upgrade skills at any moment and the begin "boost" was in DX just 5000 free points and in SS2 3 "forced" points in skills...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I know that.  Hades was using it as a reason why Silent Storm is a CRPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hades isnt rational when it comes to the definition of CRPG. CRPG is anything Hades likes anything he dosnt like isnt one. Best of luck.

[Judge Hades]

Since I can only really discuss games I have played and I don't play RTS games and I haven't played System Shock 2 I can only go by your discriptions of them. Sorry.

 

As for DX they play as a shooter so I played them as a shooter.

[Judge Hades]

Hades isnt rational when it comes to the definition of CRPG. CRPG is anything Hades likes anything he dosnt like isnt one. Best of luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I like Jade Empire a lot and I don't consider it a CRPG. I also like Halo and Indigo Prophecy, which aren't CRPGs. There goes that theory.

 

Of course having a rational discussion about such things with me is indeed futile. I agree with you on that point.

[alanschu]

Since I can only really discuss games I have played and I don't play RTS games and I haven't played System Shock 2 I can only go by your discriptions of them.  Sorry.

 

As for DX they play as a shooter so I played them as a shooter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

How is it not a CRPG? You have equipment, character stats, a story placed in it. You have skill builds.

 

Just because you chose to play it one way....

[Judge Hades]

Hey, why do you even care? Its not like you are going to change my mind on tthis. I am a irrational loon, don't you know? :D

 

To answer our question, it doesn't "feel" like a CRPG. Fallout feels like a CRPG. Deus Ex doesn't. Can't be more specific than that, sorry.

[alanschu]

If it's just feeling, than the definition is pretty arbitrary.

 

 

The reason why I care is because you yourself seem to have as much interest concerning what other people consider CRPG games. Furthermore, you go on to say that your definitions should be obvious to someone like Sawyer because he's the designer.

 

I have no problems if you have your own perception of what a CRPG is. Just don't act surprised when people call you on it because it doesn't match up well with what the rest of the world considers one.

[Volourn]

"Well, I like Jade Empire a lot and I don't consider it a CRPG."

 

Why not? It has every thing a CRPG should have. Character based stats, and skills, multiple ways to complete quests, story based, joinable party members, role-playing in general.

 

The only thing one could could argue is the real time combat it has; but that's balanced out by the fact that a character's stats are important to the combat (though not as much as say in FO or TOEE).

 

So, why isn't it by your definition, not a CRPG?

 

Because it's inventory system doens't allow yout o pick up ph@t loot ? Ph@t lewt collection doesn't equal role-playing. JE is more of a RPG than either KOTOR or TOEE, or even BG. Even BL is a RPG even with its RT combat.

 

Edited December 8, 2005 by Volourn

[Judge Hades]

It doesn't feel like a CRPG. It feels like an action adventure game. Yes, it is bloody arbitrary. Deal with it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Phat loot does define much of the customisation process and thats what JE lacks.

 

Even with a different skill set the game will still play the same since you are required to have certain skill types in order to damage certain enemies.

 

Easiest end boss ever too.

[alanschu]

I thought Malak was pretty straight forward, as well as Sion and Kreia.

 

Dear Lord if JE was even easier! :D

 

 

Master was easy too! Just had to talk to him

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I thought Malak was pretty straight forward, as well as Sion and Kreia.

 

Dear Lord if JE was even easier! :D

 

 

Master was easy too!  Just had to talk to him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Any of those sub 30 seconds and involve pressing only two buttons ?

[Volourn]

Both KOTOR bosess were easier than JE's. Well. Malak could be tricky if you came unprepared without healing kits.

 

And, you didn't have to fight Li at the end either.

 

 

"Phat loot does define much of the customisation process and thats what JE lacks."

 

Collecting ph@t lewt isn't role-playing. Role-playing is about making meaninful choices that effect your character, other characetrs, and the game world. JE allows this.

 

It may not be the best Ph@t Lewt Collector Simulation; but since that isn't the genre it's in; no worries there.

 

 

"Any of those sub 30 seconds and involve pressing only two buttons ?"

 

Kreia. And, it only takes one click of button. Or a few more to beat up on ahc of her light sabres. I used a whole bunch of buttons to fight Li.

 

 

"It doesn't feel like a CRPG. It feels like an action adventure game. Yes, it is bloody arbitrary. Deal with it."

 

That's ok. It is still a role-playing game. :cool:

Edited December 8, 2005 by Volourn

[alanschu]

Well, Sion was only stretched out because of Combat.

 

 

I literally just kept hitting '1' to keep doing flurry. Which was overkill because I was able to get him down to zero health in almost always a single flurry.

 

Malak required more button pushes and time simply because I had to do some moving to the tanks. I was able to get him down to zero health in a single flurry though

[Volourn]

"I was able to get him down to zero health in a single flurry though"

 

Impressive.

[alanschu]

There was a bit of twinking involved. I think it was with a dual-bladed saber with insane strength (all my points put into it) as well as uber-crystals.

 

It did make me laugh out loud. Admittedly it wasn't on my first time playing it however. Though I didn't struggle with him my first time. Ironically, the only time I struggled with him was as a Consular. I found him more difficult because he had excellent resistances and saving throws.