Taking turn base action out of RPGs...

[Haitoku]

Excuse me...

 

But how does combat/difficulty stop a game from being a true cRPG?

 

These things are at the bottom of the priority list...

 

EDIT: I should say, they should be.

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If the game is too easy, I get bored and any game I get bored at is not a CRPG to me.

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As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food.

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Fair enough.

 

I could sit through horrible, tedious, repetitive gameplay if the story is good enough, make a parallel definition out of that.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Haitoku

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Combat difficuly should change. After you are done fighting one boss, the next boss should be twice as hard. Supportive NPCs should have various difficulties the closer you get to the Big Boss, and they should be different variations. Other words, Sith Lords would be a higher difficulty rate compaired to a Sith Assassin. In the chane of difficulties, Sith Assassins should be weaker. When you fight Sion, he should have been weaker than Kreia. Just an example. I would not expect to fight a level 4 character in a level 10 world. Therefore, combat difficulty is essential.

 

Wow! How about reward systems. When you fight Big Bosses and open difficult doors, there should be rewards that reflect the difficulty in levels. Otherwords, when I defeat an Exchange Boss, I should get a reward that is superior to the one I get from just opening a canister. In KotOR II, the rewards don't reflect the difficulty of the character you defeated or the skill level.

 

(I am just using KotOR II as an example, and I completely enjoy the game.)

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Yes lets fight bosses with 320,000 hps.

[Volourn]

"Even someone who dosnt know the D&D rules could get through most of the prologue and pick things up along the way"

 

Again, I reccommened to anyone some reading of the NWN Spoilers Section. That would really blow this kind of thinking sky high. There are more than a few complaints that the prologue is too tough.

 

Remember, even the super easy goblins there could kill a 1st level character in one hit - espiciially a wiz or sorc or even bards and rogues.

 

Read the spoilers section.

 

 

"As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food."

 

Haha. :D

Edited December 8, 2005 by Volourn

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Combat difficuly should change. After you are done fighting one boss, the next boss should be twice as hard. Supportive NPCs should have various difficulties the closer you get to the Big Boss, and they should be different variations. Other words, Sith Lords would be a higher difficulty rate compaired to a Sith Assassin. In the chane of difficulties, Sith Assassins should be weaker. When you fight Sion, he should have been weaker than Kreia. Just an example. I would not expect to fight a level 4 character in a level 10 world. Therefore, combat difficulty is essential.

 

Wow! How about reward systems. When you fight Big Bosses and open difficult doors, there should be rewards that reflect the difficulty in levels. Otherwords, when I defeat an Exchange Boss, I should get a reward that is superior to the one I get from just opening a canister. In KotOR II, the rewards don't reflect the difficulty of the character you defeated or the skill level.

 

(I am just using KotOR II as an example, and I completely enjoy the game.)

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Yes lets fight bosses with 320,000 hps.

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You can make any type of scale which is reasonable.

[Judge Hades]

The problem is that my mind changes on a whim of the moment, so I am hardly even consistant with personal matters. It is simply how my brain works and something I have come to accept.

 

I call this organized chaos for there are central things that I am consistant such as my views on religion, personal rights and liberties, and the war and Iraq. On other issues such as what makes a good CRPG are more... fluidic.

 

Such as even though ToEE has the best combat I have ever seen in a Dungeons and Dragons, the game itself is crap while the game mechanics of Jade Empire is a little too simplistic for my taste it is really fun to play. The difficulty is just right when playing in Grand master mode. At least at first. I have gotten so good with that game I leave a litter of red and blue orbs in every battlefield and I am already at full health. :ph34r:

 

If we could place a game with the same story frame work as KotOR 1 or even 2 with a tactical turn base combat engine, similarly found in Fallout or even FOT, I would be in gamer heaven. Of course what I consider gamer heaven might be a gamer hell to others.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Again, I reccommened to anyone some reading of the NWN Spoilers Section. That would really blow this kind of thinking sky high. There are more than a few complaints that the prologue is too tough.

 

Remember, even the super easy goblins there could kill a 1st level character in one hit - espiciially a wiz or sorc or even bards and rogues.

 

Read the spoilers section.

 

 

"As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food."

 

Haha. :D

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Actually they only did 1 hp so not going to happen.

 

Given the stupidity evident on the bioware boards it wouldnt suprise me. But the fact still remains that TOEE requires more and faster knowledge of the rules than NwN.

 

Most of the time you can just stand back while NPCs do their thing. Of course if you havnt hired them , then you have artificially increased the difficulty anyway (which the game recomends against).

Edited December 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Judge Hades]

As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food.

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I would call that my mom's cooking.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

White Wolf did a really good job at 'Vampire: Bloodlines'. When you fought through the game, the difficulty changed. When the PC engaged in battle it was in realtime, and it worked out great. I felt like things keep moving, and I didn't have to wait my turn to strike.

 

Eddited for spelling..

Edited December 8, 2005 by MacLeodCorp

[Volourn]

"Given the stupidity evident on the bioware boards it wouldnt suprise me. But the fact still remains that TOEE requires more and faster knowledge of the rules than NwN."

 

TOEE is full turn base. This means you aren't rushed. On top of that, you will have a party of at least 4. Include the fact that the various starting areas that have combat are really easy (even eaiser than the full game).

 

P.S. Weird. I've seen the goblins in the prlogue do as much as double digits with a crit. They use short swords (and morningstars) so that's 1d6 -1 'cause IIRC they're strength is 8.

 

But, that's old news. Heh.

 

 

 

P.S.S. Enemies with 320k hp in a d20 rules etting (even one as simplified as the KOTOR series) just wouldn't work. The rules don't work with that. I know, I've seen some NWN PWs that think that's actually cute. LOL

 

 

"White Wolf did a really good job at 'Vampire: Bloodline'. When you fought through the game, the difficulty changed. During battle is was realtime, and it worked out great. I felt like things keeped movine, and I didn't have to wait my turn to strike."

 

WW didn't make it. Troika did. I enjoyed BL; but its combat was very poor, imo. Too easy, too boring, and simply not fun for me. however, one or two combats were. They weren't the norm. However, BL's story telling, dialogue, and role-playing was very, very good.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Volourn

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

White Wolf did a really good job at 'Vampire: Bloodline'. When you fought through the game, the difficulty changed. During battle is was realtime, and it worked out great. I felt like things keeped movine, and I didn't have to wait my turn to strike.

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But you only had one character there. In KOTOR you have three which you have to coordinate so they dont do something stupid and get themselves killed.

 

If you made KOTOR a solo experience you would be removing many of the elements that people like about the game.

[Judge Hades]

I prefer more tactical options in my games. Silent Storm is a very good CRPG.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

TOEE is full turn base. This means you aren't rushed. On top of that, you will have a party of at least 4. Include the fact that the various starting areas that have combat are really easy (even eaiser than the full game).

 

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Being rushed or not is irrevevent if you dont know what you are doing. I've watched people play NwN and TOEE. Normal reaction to NwN is oh it's just like Diablo. Which is basically the case in the mechanics sense.

 

People just tend to stare at TOEE trying to make sense of all those options.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I prefer more tactical options in my games.  Silent Storm is a very good CRPG.

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I suppose it is if you like to spend a lot of time watching a little red bar fill up.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

White Wolf did a really good job at 'Vampire: Bloodline'. When you fought through the game, the difficulty changed. During battle is was realtime, and it worked out great. I felt like things keeped movine, and I didn't have to wait my turn to strike.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But you only had one character there. In KOTOR you have three which you have to coordinate so they dont do something stupid and get themselves killed.

 

If you made KOTOR a solo experience you would be removing many of the elements that people like about the game.

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I forgot that it was a single player game. I think something like KotOR could have been produced the same way. It would mean faster thinking, and your PNPCs would have to be designed in a much higher and stretigic manner.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I forgot that it was a single player game. I think something like KotOR could have been produced the same way. It would mean faster thinking, and your PNPCs would have to be designed in a much higher and stretigic manner.

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The benifits of more than one character is you get different gameplay options in the same game. If for example I built a ranged character in bloodlines that dictates how I play the game. If I get bored of shooting things there isnt a lot I can do.

 

In KOTOR If I get bored of shooting things I can just play one of the other party for a while. Since I build them all differently it means less repatition of nothing but force storm.

 

That is also related to difficulty as well. If you make the game so difficult as to require precise builds, then you cut down on how much versatility you can have with a single character.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

I think RPG rules will be debated for years to come. Table top rules keep changing as well. I think it would be intresting to see a RPG where realtime action is used during battles.

[BattleCookiee]

Silent Storm is a very good CRPG.

 

But is Silent Storm a RPG?

 

It is a Turnbased Strategy Game.

A real-time variation of it wouldn't be Diablo or Kotor but a Commando's...

Now tell me how Commando's is a RPG...

 

EDIT: Real-time and real-life are 2 different things

Edited December 8, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[alanschu]

Excuse me...

 

But how does combat/difficulty stop a game from being a true cRPG?

 

These things are at the bottom of the priority list...

 

EDIT: I should say, they should be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If the game is too easy, I get bored and any game I get bored at is not a CRPG to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[Judge Hades]

How is it not a CRPG? You have equipment, character stats, leveling, a story placed in it. You have different "classes" and skill builds. You can also gain a party. How is it not a CRPG? Last time I checked Commando didn't have these things.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Hades_One

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Silent Storm is a very good CRPG.

 

But is Silent Storm a RPG?

 

It is a Turnbased Strategy Game.

A real-time variation of it wouldn't be Diablo or Kotor but a Commando's...

Now tell me how Commando's is a RPG...

 

EDIT: Real-time and real-life are 2 different things

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[BattleCookiee]

How is it not a CRPG?  You have equipment, character stats, leveling, a story placed in it.  You have different "classes" and skill builds.  You can also gain a party.  How is it not a CRPG?  Last time I checked Commando didn't have these things.

 

Maybe because you have loads of members that have to act like a strategy game (X-Com etc.)

 

Equipment: Warcraft III has this, is it a RPG?

Character Stats; Warcraft III, Majesty, C&C Generals etc. have this; RPG?

Leveling; Warcraft III, Majesty, C&C Generals etc. have this; RPG?

Story; every game has a story behind it. Half-Life 2, Red Alert, Generals just to give a random amount...

Different "classes and builds" is like "units" in a RTS (Rocket, rifle, tank, plane etc.)

 

Commando's, like said, if you turn a game like Silent Storm into a Real-time version it would be like Commando's. May not have these specific RPG-parameters, but it does have the same type of strategy...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think RPG rules will be debated for years to come. Table top rules keep changing as well. I think it would be intresting to see a RPG where realtime action is used during battles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats never going to happen in a PnP game since a DM will never be able to process six peoples actions and resolve them at the same time. Thats a human limitation. It isnt a computer limitation.

 

Want to see Fallout in real time take a look at FoT (Fallout Tactics).

[alanschu]

How is it not a CRPG?  You have equipment, character stats, leveling, a story placed in it.  You have different "classes" and skill builds.  You can also gain a party.  How is it not a CRPG?  Last time I checked Commando didn't have these things.

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Aren't you one that does not consider System Shock 2 to not be a CRPG?

 

 

I agree that your examples and definitions of "CRPGs" have more in common with TBS games than anything else. And this goes beyond just Silent Storm.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

To be honest, I have never played a Fall Out game.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

To be honest, I have never played a Fall Out game.

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You might like FOT (If you can find it).

 

it uses regenerating action points rather than turns. So while you have pauses as your action points return ,there are no actual turns in the game. Thats if your playing the RT mode (there is a TB mode too).