The Religion Thread

[Dark Moth]

That clip got me thinking, though.  That song, "We wish you a merry christmas", interpreting it literally, isn't it a song that should be sung by non-christians?  After all, the singers are bringing good tidings to your king, not theirs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"king"? I believe you mean kin.

 

 

For those of you in America, you're misinformed though if you think there's no war on "Christmas" whatsoever. For example: at a town's Christmas parade they invited lots of different organizations to participate except Christian ones. In my own hometown even, a school forbid its teachers and students to display red or green during the season. They were allowed to display blue and white only. They weren't allowed to call it a Christmas season, but a "winter celebration." But here's the kicker: earlier that month, they allowed a Jewish woman to come in and explain Hanukkah to the children and even pass out dradles. Or how about stores forbidden to display the word Christmas, or teachers being forbidden to utter the phrase "Merry Christmas"? You don't think that sounds a bit harsh?

 

For starters, people want to take the "Christ" part out of the season in hopes of not offending people. But what left does't realize is that they're offending those who still icorporate the religious part into the holiday as well. Not to mention that more than just Christians celebrate Christmas anyway. And for the record, I'm not offended by someone saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". But when I see double standards or an imposed censorship on the word "Christmas", that's when I'm offended.

[Child of Flame]

That clip got me thinking, though.  That song, "We wish you a merry christmas", interpreting it literally, isn't it a song that should be sung by non-christians?  After all, the singers are bringing good tidings to your king, not theirs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"king"? I believe you mean kin.

 

 

For those of you in America, you're misinformed though if you think there's no war on "Christmas" whatsoever. For example: at a town's Christmas parade they invited lots of different organizations to participate except Christian ones. In my own hometown even, a school forbid its teachers and students to display red or green during the season. They were allowed to display blue and white only. They weren't allowed to call it a Christmas season, but a "winter celebration." But here's the kicker: earlier that month, they allowed a Jewish woman to come in and explain Hanukkah to the children and even pass out dradles. Or how about stores forbidden to display the word Christmas, or teachers being forbidden to utter the phrase "Merry Christmas"? You don't think that sounds a bit harsh?

 

For starters, people want to take the "Christ" part out of the season in hopes of not offending people. But what left does't realize is that they're offending those who still icorporate the religious part into the holiday as well. Not to mention that more than just Christians celebrate Christmas anyway. And for the record, I'm not offended by someone saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". But when I see double standards or an imposed censorship on the word "Christmas", that's when I'm offended.

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My town must be a helluva lot more laid back than yours then, because even though I'm less than an hour North-East of Sacramento, where there's the nut who wants everything to do with the Christian god censored, Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays is in pretty much every store window here during the Holidays, there has been no sort of censorship whatsoever in the schools, except for, in an ironic twist of fate, the Christian School I went to for most of Grammar-Highschool, where I wasn't allowed to wear a Santa Hat in the fifth grade because it was 'pagan'.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

For starters, people want to take the "Christ" part out of the season in hopes of not offending people.  But what left does't realize is that they're offending those who still icorporate the religious part into the holiday as well.  Not to mention that more than just Christians celebrate Christmas anyway.  And for the record, I'm not offended by someone saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".  But when I see double standards or an imposed censorship on the word "Christmas", that's when I'm offended.

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Maybe, but they are not telling you that you cant go to church services and celebrate in your own way in a non public arena are they ?

 

Now if they were arresting people for doing those things, that would be a totally different matter. I think it's just that christians have taken this stuff for granted for so long that the see it as a war rather than an attempt to balance things up.

 

It's really not suprising they would bring in other faiths, again thats an attempt to balance things up rather than a declaration of war.

[Dark Moth]

It doesn't matter. I should be allowed to express my faith publicly if I want to. It's hypocritical to claim you don't have any problem with a faith, yet restrict any free expression of it. Prohibiting someone to express religion publicly goes against freedom of speech and religion, and I will never stand for it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It doesn't matter.  I should be allowed to express my faith publicly if I want to.  It's hypocritical to claim you don't have any problem with a faith, yet restrict any free expression of it.  Prohibiting someone to express religion publicly goes against freedom of speech and religion, and I will never stand for it.

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Again this is restricted to the public arena. No one is stopping you wishing people merry chrismas and threatening you with arrest are they ?

 

What are cracking down on is institutionalised christianity, like in stores , public buildings etc. On TV , stuff like that.

 

It sort of reminds me of the St Patricks day celebration they had in Dublin, supposedly anyone was invited. But everywhere you looked was nationalist Irish iconography and symbology. Not suprising then , that the Irish who identify themselves with England didnt feel at all welcome.

[Reveilled]

That clip got me thinking, though.  That song, "We wish you a merry christmas", interpreting it literally, isn't it a song that should be sung by non-christians?  After all, the singers are bringing good tidings to your king, not theirs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"king"? I believe you mean kin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Woah.

I can't believe I've gone 13 years not knowing the lyrics to we wish you a merry christmas because of some piss-poor proof readers for my school's hymn books.

 

That's...mind blowing.

[Dark Moth]

Again this is restricted to the public arena. No one is stopping you wishing people merry chrismas and threatening you with arrest are they ?

 

What are cracking down on is institutionalised christianity, like in stores , public buildings etc. On TV , stuff like that.

 

It sort of reminds me of the St Patricks day celebration they had in Dublin, supposedly anyone was invited. But everywhere you looked was nationalist Irish iconography and symbology. Not suprising then , that the Irish who identify themselves with England didnt feel at all welcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, attacking it in stores and public buildings is attacking public expression of it. If you prohibit a teacher from wishing students "Merry Christmas" in school, then you are attacking public expression of it. It goes against our very constitution. If people are offended with Christians expressing their faith, then feel free to express the celebration of your holiday, but don't restrict us from expressing it, dang it. If you're Jewish, feel free to hang a "Happy Hanukkah" sign in your business, but don't try to get the expression of Christmas removed.

 

Fahrenheit 451 dealt with the notion of censorship like this. In the book, so many people were offended by differing viewpoints that they just banned expression of ideas altogether so everyone would live in a nice, happy, repressive society.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mothman

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Again, attacking it in stores and public buildings is attacking public expression of it.  If you prohibit a teacher from wishing students "Merry Christmas" in school, then you are attacking public expression of it.  It goes against our very constitution.  If people are offended with Christians expressing their faith, then feel free to express the celebration of your holiday, but don't restrict us from expressing it, dang it.  If you're Jewish, feel free to hang a "Happy Hanukkah" sign in your business, but don't try to get the expression of Christmas removed. 

 

Fahrenheit 451 dealt with the notion of censorship like this.  In the book, so many people were offended by differing viewpoints that they just banned expression of ideas altogether so everyone would live in a nice, happy, repressive society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here is why I dont care. The very people who are whinging right now would be the first up in arms where any other religion to celebrated in the same way publically.

[Dark Moth]

How do you know that? Now you're just making a broad generalization of those offended by the removal of "Christmas". I sure wouldn't feel offended. Although we are a predominantly Christian nation, so naturally you'll find more expression of Christmas than Hannukah.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mothman

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

How do you know that?  Now you're just making a broad generalization of those offended by the removal of "Christmas".  I sure wouldn't feel offended.  Although we are a predominantly Christian nation, so naturally you'll find more expression of Christmas than Hannukah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Am I really ? You honestly think the christian right would stand for ramadan as a national holiday, or Eid?

 

As long as no ones stopping you going to church, or celebrating in private. The state if it does indeed claim to be seperate can't show favouritism, even if America was a christian country at some point in history and is still predominantly christian.

[Dark Moth]

If you want your argument to be more valid, don't make generalizations. That'd be like me saying the entire left wouldn't stand for a public expression of Christmas. Maybe they would. But at the same time, Ramadan is a month-long thing ,and celebrated by a tiny minority. Population size is the only differing factor here. So many people, including non-Christians, celebrate Christmas it's just more convenient to make it a national holiday. But national holidays aren't the issue here, it's expression of a holiday.

 

And now we're back to square one; it's fine and dandy they let us worship in private. Yay. Out of sight, out of mind, right? :D But when they attack us for expressing it publicly, then they are violating our personal freedoms. And I'm not talking about the expression of religion in governmental institutions, but public places like stores, schools, etc.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

If you want your argument to be more valid, don't make generalizations.  That'd be like me saying the entire left wouldn't stand for a public expression of Christmas.  Maybe they would.  But at the same time, Ramadan is a month-long thing ,and celebrated by a tiny minority.  Population size is the only differing factor here.  So many people, including non-Christians, celebrate Christmas it's just more convenient to make it a national holiday.  But national holidays aren't the issue here, it's expression of a holiday. 

 

And now we're back to square one; it's fine and dandy they let us worship in private.  Yay.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?  :D  But when they attack us for expressing it publicly, then they are violating our personal freedoms.  And I'm not talking about the expression of religion in governmental institutions, but public places like stores, schools, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm... These are people who kill doctors and nurses , sure they are going to accept another faith based national holiday without protest.

 

It might not be the issue for you but it is the issue for a lot of people. Thats why they are secularising it. Once thats done, then there wont be a religion based national holiday anymore.

 

Nice and all, except no one is violating your personal freedoms. If you work in a place where religious expression of the holiday is forbidden, thats not the same thing as someone violating your personal freedom. If you told a customer to **** off , then you would get fired. So the idea of free speech at work isnt a fact.

There are all sorts of laws governing the public display of items and those are down to the government to make and the store owners to follow. If they say no angels or mangers , in public, thats not saying no angels and mangers period.

Edited December 11, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Dark Moth]

If you want your argument to be more valid, don't make generalizations.  That'd be like me saying the entire left wouldn't stand for a public expression of Christmas.  Maybe they would.  But at the same time, Ramadan is a month-long thing ,and celebrated by a tiny minority.  Population size is the only differing factor here.  So many people, including non-Christians, celebrate Christmas it's just more convenient to make it a national holiday.  But national holidays aren't the issue here, it's expression of a holiday. 

 

And now we're back to square one; it's fine and dandy they let us worship in private.  Yay.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?  :D  But when they attack us for expressing it publicly, then they are violating our personal freedoms.  And I'm not talking about the expression of religion in governmental institutions, but public places like stores, schools, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm... These are people who kill doctors and nurses , sure they are going to accept another faith based national holiday without protest.

 

It might not be the issue for you but it is the issue for a lot of people. Thats why they are secularising it. Once thats done, then there wont be a religion based national holiday anymore.

 

Nice and all, except no one is violating your personal freedoms. If you work in a place where religious expression of the holiday is forbidden, thats not the same thing as someone violating your personal freedom. If you told a customer to **** off , then you would get fired. So the idea of free speech at work isnt a fact.

There are all sorts of laws governing the public display of items and those are down to the government to make and the store owners to follow. If they say no angels or mangers , in public, thats not saying no angels and mangers period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now you're just stereotyping like a 12-year old. I have news for you: the Christian right doesn't kill doctors and nurses. Those who do are a handful of ultra-zealous lunatics who take their religion to far. I suggest you post more tactfully, otherwise people are just going to look at you as a bigot. How about I say all atheists are bigotted toward Christianity now? Most of the Christian right are good, normal people, it's the bad ones who get all the attention. The only different thing about the Christian right is they take their religion a little more seriously.

 

And there is a difference between courtesy (aka not telling a customer to **** off) and simple expression of faith. Why should a person be offended by the display of a nativity seen? If they're offended, that's their problem. If the display was meant as a deliberate attack on atheism, they have every right to be offended, but that's not the case. The only thing people are doing by removing all public expression of religion is violating freedom of speech while masking it behind a semblance of inclusion and fairness.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mothman

[Reveilled]

Back up a second. Regarding stores displaying nativity scenes, are these being banned by the government, or being banned by the higher-ups in the company responding to pressure put upon them by their customers?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Now you're just stereotyping like a 12-year old.  I have news for you: the Christian right doesn't kill doctors and nurses.  Those who do are a handful of ultra-zealous lunatics who take their religion to far.  I suggest you post more tactfully, otherwise people are just going to look at you as a bigot.  How about I say all atheists are bigotted toward Christianity now?  Most of the Christian right are good, normal people, it's the bad ones who get all the attention.  The only different thing about the Christian right is they take their religion a little more seriously. 

 

And there is a difference between courtesy (aka not telling a customer to **** off) and simple expression of faith.  Why should a person be offended by the display of a nativity seen?  If they're offended, that's their problem.  If the display was meant as a deliberate attack on atheism, they have every right to be offended, but that's not the case.  The only thing people are doing by removing all public expression of religion is violating freedom of speech while masking it behind a semblance of inclusion and fairness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No , they are killing in gods name, thats good enough for me. If you want to not be associated with them , then you have to make the same efforts as muslims do not to be associated with terrorists.

 

Not if the person your addressing finds the remark equally offensive.

 

We have already estabilshed there is no such thing as freedom of speech in the workplace. So unless someone comes over to your house and tells you that you cant celebrate in your own way, or locks you up for wishing someone a merry christmas while your not representing something other than yourself (IE your not at work). Then your reaction is just a tad melodramatic

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Back up a second.  Regarding stores displaying nativity scenes, are these being banned by the government, or being banned by the higher-ups in the company responding to pressure put upon them by their customers?

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I think there are already rules in place for offical government buildings.

 

I'd imagine it's got the pagans grinning anyway.

[Reveilled]

Back up a second.  Regarding stores displaying nativity scenes, are these being banned by the government, or being banned by the higher-ups in the company responding to pressure put upon them by their customers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think there are already rules in place for offical government buildings.

 

I'd imagine it's got the pagans grinning anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm concerned chiefly with business outlets here, though. But frankly, if government buildings ban overt displays of christianity while allowing overt displays of other religions, then I think that is wrong regardless of any previous institutionalisation of Christianity. If you ban a teacher from saying "Merry Christmas", you must also ban the teacher from saying "Happy Hannukah" or "Eid Mubarack" or any other religious holiday, otherwise it is state-sponsored religious discrimination. Speaking as a Pagan, banning teachers from saying "Merry Christmas" doesn't get me grinning.

 

Similarly, the worker might not have freedom of speech in his place of work, but the owner of a business should. If the owner wants to ban nativity scenes, that is their prerogative, but if the owner wishes to allow them, the government should not ban it.

[Musopticon?]

Thank god our christmas, including it's well-wishing, is predominantly pagan, so there's no of this crap you have to take. Here we just try to make our Joulu less like a shopping tour.

[Dark Moth]

No , they are killing in gods name, thats good enough for me. If you want to not be associated with them , then you have to make the same efforts as muslims do not to be associated with terrorists.

 

Not if the person your addressing finds the remark equally offensive.

 

We have already estabilshed there is no such thing as freedom of speech in the workplace. So unless someone comes over to your house and tells you that you cant celebrate in your own way, or locks you up for wishing someone a merry christmas while your not representing something other than yourself (IE your not at work). Then your reaction is just a tad melodramatic 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your statement then reveals a very dismissive, misinformed, and I'm sorry to say, bigoted attitude toward the Christian right. Your argument might be a little more valid if right-wing Christians killing nurses and doctors was a consistant problem. But it's not, and it's not even doctors in general, but things like abortion clinics (which doesn't make it okay, but it's a big step down). Incidents like that are very few and far between. Those who do kill like that are an extremely small minority that are in no way representative of the Christian right as a whole, just as Islamic terrorists aren't fair representatives of the Islamic right. I don't have to separate myself from killers like that, because I and many others know that a Christian killing an abortion doctor is no representative of the Christian right. Also, 5th commandment.

 

Maybe so, but if that person wants to fire me for saying something as trivial as "Merry Christmas", then there's something wrong. And if you don't believe there are double standards against Christians, check this out. This is only from last year!

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mothman

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm concerned chiefly with business outlets here, though.  But frankly, if government buildings ban overt displays of christianity while allowing overt displays of other religions, then I think that is wrong regardless of any previous institutionalisation of Christianity.  If you ban a teacher from saying "Merry Christmas", you must also ban the teacher from saying "Happy Hannukah" or "Eid Mubarack" or any other religious holiday, otherwise it is state-sponsored religious discrimination.  Speaking as a Pagan, banning teachers from saying "Merry Christmas" doesn't get me grinning.

 

Similarly, the worker might not have freedom of speech in his place of work, but the owner of a business should.  If the owner wants to ban nativity scenes, that is their prerogative, but if the owner wishes to allow them, the government should not ban it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's been a while since I was in school. Be another three years till my kids start.

 

No ? I would have thought the irony of them having their holiday stolen in the same way they stole it from the pagans would warrant at least a wry smile.

 

Well I'm sure there is a healthy dose of exageration going around. Since I dont live in America I have no idea how much. If your talking about here, there is as much gaudy crap around as their is every year.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Your statement then reveals a very dismissive, misinformed, and I'm sorry to say, bigoted attitude toward the Christian right.  Your argument might be a little more valid if right-wing Christians killing nurses and doctors was a consistant problem.  But it's not, and it's not even doctors in general, but things like abortion clinics (which doesn't make it okay, but it's a big step down).

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And what does this reveal about you ?

 

So abortion doctors and nurses are less human than other doctors and nurses. And people wonder why christianity sickens people.

 

I think you just proved my point better than I ever could have. While christians might not do it, they condone it , and if they dont condone it , they still see justification in it. As to see it as less wrong than the murder of someone in different profession.

 

Yes I'm sickened, not suprised though.

[Musopticon?]

Ouch.

[Dark Moth]

Your statement then reveals a very dismissive, misinformed, and I'm sorry to say, bigoted attitude toward the Christian right.  Your argument might be a little more valid if right-wing Christians killing nurses and doctors was a consistant problem.  But it's not, and it's not even doctors in general, but things like abortion clinics (which doesn't make it okay, but it's a big step down).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And what does this reveal about you ?

 

So abortion doctors and nurses are less human than other doctors and nurses. And people wonder why christianity sickens people.

 

I think you just proved my point better than I ever could have. While christians might not do it, they condone it , and if they dont condone it , they still see justification in it. As to see it as less wrong than the murder of someone in different profession.

 

Yes I'm sickened, not suprised though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe you misinterpreted what I meant. What I wrote referred to the scope of people targetted, not who was being targetted. In other words, Christian extremists don't target doctors and nurses in general, just ones whom they see as "heretical", like those mentioned. I only stated that because your post might be interpretted as saying that Christians target doctors and nurses in general, and I was only trying to clarify that. I in no way meant that it was okay to kill an abortion doctor or that their lives are worth any less, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

With that out of the way, I reiterate everything I said in my previous post.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mothman

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I believe you misinterpreted what I meant.  What I wrote referred to the scope of people targetted, not who was being targetted.  In other words, Christian extremists don't target doctors and nurses in general, just ones whom they see as "heretical", like those mentioned.  I only stated that because your post might be interpretted as saying that Christians target doctors and nurses in general, and I was only trying to clarify that.  I in no way meant that it was okay to kill an abortion doctor or that their lives are worth any less, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

With that out of the way, I reiterate everything I said in my previous post.   

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No I believe I was spot on and now you will wriggle uncomfortably.

 

By your own words you said that the murder of abortion doctors and nurses was less wrong than the murder of another doctor or nurse. This is a value your so religion has led you to adopt.

[Janmanden]

I am partial to agree with anyone that wants to put a ban on sick psychopathic people (any religion) that promotes superstitution, but not around christmas...unless they start preaching too.