France Upholds Law That Smooths History

[Azarkon]

Once again we're talking on different pages. Your idea of collective responsibility is a priori to the crime: yes, I agree that the soldiers/generals felt that they were operating under a collective responsibility. However, my idea of collective responsibility corresponds to our judgment after the fact, which is to say that because the soldiers/generals appeal to collective responsibility, we must then place the responsibility on the collective in addition to the individual. This is opposed to your idea, which is to say that rather than blaming the collective which these soldiers/generals were attributing the crime, we should instead ONLY blame them as individuals because they gave the orders. I feel that this is missing the point, because they (the individual soldiers/generals) are not the only ones at fault; the societal forces that they felt compelled by must also be judged.

 

In terms of whether collective and personal responsibility are contradictory, I disagree with your assertion that if we acknowledge the existence of collective responsibility, then individuals will feel that they can use it as a scapegoat. Like I said, personal and collective responsibility go hand in hand. Hitler and his cronies were directly and personally guilty. The fact that German society at the time is also guilty does not change that fact. If anything, my criteria of responsibility is much more comprehensive and universal than yours.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Azarkon

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Once again we're talking on different pages.  Your idea of collective responsibility is a priori to the crime: yes, I agree that the soldiers/generals felt that they were operating under a collective responsibility.  However, my idea of collective responsibility corresponds to our judgment after the fact, which is to say that because the soldiers/generals appeal to collective responsibility, we must then place the responsibility on the collective in addition to the individual.  This is opposed to your idea, which is to say that rather than blaming the collective which these soldiers/generals were attributing the crime, we should instead ONLY blame them as individuals because they gave the orders.  I feel that this is missing the point, because they (the individual soldiers/generals) are not the only ones at fault; the societal forces that they felt compelled by must also be judged.

 

In terms of whether collective and personal responsibility are contradictory, I disagree with your assertion that if we acknowledge the existence of collective responsibility, then individuals will feel that they can use it as a scapegoat.  Like I said, personal and collective responsibility go hand in hand.  Hitler and his cronies were directly and personally guilty.  The fact that German society at the time is also guilty does not change that fact.  If anything, my criteria of responsibility is much more comprehensive and universal than yours.

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Yes but that would mean the idea of collective responsibility in the way you intend it to work dosnt actually work and whats even worse is the opposite is completely proven to work.

 

It's not missing the point your theory is just flawed. You may want it to work a certain way, but if it dosnt work that way in practice then it's pretty worthless.

 

I never said we should only blame the order givers. It's not a defence to say "I was just obeying orders". Then again if your choice is to obey the order or be shot its not so black and white is it. But thats a far cry from blaming everyone who happened to be alive in Germany at the time and for the foreseeable future which is what you want to do.

 

Most of the German society of that time was as busy avoiding the attentions of the Ghestapo as anyone else. You do remember what happened to those generals who disagreed with Hitler dont you ? Or what about one of the blokes who actually founded the Nazi party with him (one was executed ,one fled to Canada).

 

Like it's already been pointed out if anything drove the German people into Hitlers arms it's the treaty following WWI. And that treaty is all about trying to impose collective guilt on a society.

 

Didnt you say a couple of posts ago that the German people used Hitler as a scapegoat ?

 

Of course your critera is more universal. Your criteria is blame everyone

Edited December 2, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Azarkon]

For the last time, it's not "blame everyone" but to blame the system and those who continue to support the system. Ignorance, last time I checked, may exonerate personal guilt but it does not exonerate the guilt of a society that produces such ignorance among the populace. If a system fails then it is the system that must be held accountable not only the people within the system. Like I said, if you don't admit to the existence of a system then we're not on the same page.

 

Ethnocentric nationalism aka Fascism is a core component of the system. In my principle of thought it is as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler was. Therefore, as a system it must be held accountable for its actions, which means that even fifty years after the facts if we see ethnocentric nationalism still present in German society then the guilt of such a system in terms of the Holocaust must still be imparted. If it no longer exists in German society, as might be the case, then that guilt no longer exists and the society is exonerated. It's that simple.

 

Another example of a system component would be American exceptionalism - the belief that America is always righteous. Such a system remains in American society up to this day and therefore I continue to hold the system America operates under responsible for its past misdeeds because its fault never went away. That's not the same as saying that everyone in America today remains responsible for the Vietnam War. It is, however, saying that the system that was responsible for the Vietnam War remains to this day the American system.

[Blank]

For the last time, it's not "blame everyone" but to blame the system and those who continue to support the system... Like I said, if you don't admit to the existance of a system then we're not on the same page.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That basically summarizes everything you have said here. I don't see any problem with that opinion.

 

Then again if your choice is to obey the order or be shot its not so black and white is it.

for me personally, yes, it is black and white. There is the right thing to do, and there is the wrong thing to do. The wrong thing may be more appealing because you get to live, but if you get to live at the expense of others' lives then what kind of life is that? sick. I would rather do the right thing and get shot for my beliefs, becoming a type of martyr. and since i believe i will be going to heaven, and i already want to go now, then that's a perfect opportunity to glorify God and then get to have eternal fellowship with Him right afterward. of course, if you don't live to do the right thing (and thereby glorify God), then i guess there is no reason to care if it is the right thing or not.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

For the last time, it's not "blame everyone" but to blame the system and those who continue to support the system.  Ignorance, last time I checked, may exonerate personal guilt but it does not exonerate the guilt of a society that produces such ignorance among the populace.  If a system fails then it is the system that must be held accountable not only the people within the system.  Like I said, if you don't admit to the existence of a system then we're not on the same page.

 

Ethnocentric nationalism aka Fascism is a core component of the system.  In my principle of thought it is as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler was.  Therefore, as a system it must be held accountable for its actions, which means that even fifty years after the facts if we see ethnocentric nationalism still present in German society then the guilt of such a system in terms of the Holocaust must still be imparted.  If it no longer exists in German society, as might be the case, then that guilt no longer exists and the society is exonerated.  It's that simple.

 

Another example of a system component would be American exceptionalism - the belief that America is always righteous.  Such a system remains in American society up to this day and therefore I continue to hold the system America operates under responsible for its past misdeeds because its fault never went away.  That's not the same as saying that everyone in America today remains responsible for the Vietnam War.  It is, however, saying that the system that was responsible for the Vietnam War remains to this day the American system.

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Umm so now it's democracy's fault is it ?

 

No we are definately not on the same page since your page keeps changing as you look for new things to blame.

 

The system is just that a system If you want to blame that then you may as well blame the gun that a murderer kills someone with while your at it.

 

Yes but your principle of thought is wrong. It's not only wrong it's also counter productive to you proffesed goal. All you end up doing with your mass blame is turing the more moderate members of society into the very thing you are trying to avoid. Your always talking about learning from the past. Well didnt the treaty of versalises teach you anything?

 

Umm people are constantly begging for America's help you do get that dont you ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

for me personally, yes, it is black and white. There is the right thing to do, and there is the wrong thing to do. The wrong thing may be more appealing because you get to live, but if you get to live at the expense of others' lives then what kind of life is that? sick. I would rather do the right thing and get shot for my beliefs, becoming a type of martyr. and since i believe i will be going to heaven, and i already want to go now, then that's a perfect opportunity to glorify God and then get to have eternal fellowship with Him right afterward. of course, if you don't live to do the right thing (and thereby glorify God), then i guess there is no reason to care if it is the right thing or not.

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And when they are done with you they will go shoot your family too.

[Blank]

And when they are done with you they will go shoot your family too.

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who will gladly join me in martyrdom

[Lucius]

I would rather do the right thing and get shot for my beliefs, becoming a type of martyr. and since i believe i will be going to heaven, and i already want to go now, then that's a perfect opportunity to glorify God and then get to have eternal fellowship with Him right afterward.

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I bet Islamic terrorists say the same thing.

[Blank]

I bet Islamic terrorists say the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, so you can accurately guess what terrorists are thinking? I beseech you to join your nation's homeland security, for your help would be invaluable.

 

edit: also, even if they are thinking the same thing, i am not the one killing anyone using that belief

Edited December 3, 2005 by Blank

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

who will gladly join me in martyrdom

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You will excuse me if I dont find your attitude particularly funny since those comments are based on real events that occured during WWII.

[Lucius]

I bet Islamic terrorists say the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, so you can accurately guess what terrorists are thinking? I beseech you to join your nation's homeland security, for your help would be invaluable.

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Yes yes yes, dying for your god is ok, but not for them and theirs.

 

I despise both religions equally, martyrdom whether it be Christian or Muslim is stupid.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oh, so you can accurately guess what terrorists are thinking? I beseech you to join your nation's homeland security, for your help would be invaluable.

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It's really not a difficult thing. Dying as martyr on Jihad is a fast track to heaven and all those virgins.

 

Actually the church promised similiar things during the Crusades. Anyone killed on Crusade had a place in heaven and all earthly sins forgiven.

 

These are dangerous ideals in the hands of the desperate and the stupid.

[Musopticon?]

What? No Yrkoon present here?!

 

.....

 

 

 

The French are cool. Yeah, outside of that prissy little ville near Seine anyways.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Musopticon?

[Blank]

who will gladly join me in martyrdom

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You will excuse me if I dont find your attitude particularly funny since those comments are based on real events that occured during WWII.

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i am happy because i and my family would be going to heaven. it is actually disappointing that others don't have the same attitude.

[Lucius]

who will gladly join me in martyrdom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You will excuse me if I dont find your attitude particularly funny since those comments are based on real events that occured during WWII.

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i am happy because i and my family would be going to heaven. it is actually disappointing that others don't have the same attitude.

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No, it really isn't.

[Musopticon?]

And Blank sorta disgusts me. Yeah.

 

 

 

I'm trying to keep my input simple. Does it show?

[Blank]

It's really not a difficult thing. Dying as martyr on Jihad is a fast track to heaven and all those virgins.

 

Actually the church promised similiar things during the Crusades. Anyone killed on Crusade had a place in heaven and all earthly sins forgiven.

 

These are dangerous ideals in the hands of the desperate and the stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they are dangerous, if used that way. however, i would not use them that way.

 

also, as you said, if they're dying as martyrs on Jihad and they think its a fast track to heaven and all those virgins, then they have a totally different motivation than me. I just want eternal fellowship with God.

 

i am happy because i and my family would be going to heaven. it is actually disappointing that others don't have the same attitude.

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No, it really isn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

of course, that is because you don't agree with me. if you agreed with me then it would obviously.

 

And Blank sorta disgusts me. Yeah.

why? just curious. i don't want to be disgusting for the wrong reasons. but if i am disgusting for things that i believe (christians should always be joyful because of the hope they have for salvation) then you must think Jesus was disgusting:

"John 15:18-19 (Jesus talking to His followers)

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.

If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."

Edited December 3, 2005 by Blank

[Judge Hades]

Blank, if God is like that then I don't want to go to Heaven. I rather burn in Hell than have anything to do with that rat bastard.

[Lucius]

It's really not a difficult thing. Dying as martyr on Jihad is a fast track to heaven and all those virgins.

 

Actually the church promised similiar things during the Crusades. Anyone killed on Crusade had a place in heaven and all earthly sins forgiven.

 

These are dangerous ideals in the hands of the desperate and the stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they are dangerous, if used that way. however, i would not use them that way.

 

also, as you said, if they're dying as martyrs on Jihad and they think its a fast track to heaven and all those virgins, then they have a totally different motivation than me. I just want eternal fellowship with God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whatever, same difference. They do it for virgins, you do it for a being you cannot prove exists. It's dangerous no matter what your reasons are.

[Musopticon?]

that rat bastard.

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Read Preacher lately, Hades?

[Judge Hades]

One of my favorite comic series.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

they are dangerous, if used that way. however, i would not use them that way.

 

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I think that makes a you a heretic.

[Musopticon?]

It sorta shows. :D

[Judge Hades]

I particularly loved the ending.

[julianw]

This thread is going downhill real fast...

 

Anyways, from what I gathered, Blank is suggesting determination to serve whatever cause you believe in, whether it's God, virgins, or humanism. I guess determination could be equally dangerous as helpful to mankind, but it's certainly not a form of evil.