"the end of all things"

[indarkestday]

Whew. It's been a while since I've been here, but something was bothering me. At the endgame when Kreia talks about Revan fighting the true Sith empire she mentioned things like that he would not need technology like the Ebon Hawk, that the Sith were a belief, and that this war would take place at the end of all things. This leads me to believe that this war is not the usual Star Wars kind, but sort of a metaphysical, philosophical war, or at least one that is fought more with the Force than lightsabers. It sounds like it will affect the Force itself instead of just the Republic. If so, I can appreciate how big of a job the developers will have on their hands if they decide to make KOTOR 3. It would be a difficult idea to put in a game. Was anyone else thinking about those Kreia quotes? Sorry if this topic has been discussed before.

Edited November 12, 2005 by indarkestday

[The Great Phantom]

It has been talked about before, but it was way before 'your time.'

 

Okay, are you, or have ever been (in this life or the previous), a Star Wars Geek? If so, great, if not, oh well.

 

The Sith under Naga Sadow were forced to flee the Republic after his army was crushed underneath that of the Republic and the 'traitor' Sith, who's name escapes me at the moment (Ludo Kressh? Something like that, anyway). Now, who's to say that all of his army landed on Yavin IV (where they detiororated into the Massassi Warriors), or that some Sith weren't left in the original Sith Empire to defend it or await for his orders? My guess is that some Sith were either separated from his (or Kressh's) army, or that they WERE left behind to 'defend the heartland.' Naturally, he would not want to return to them for several reasons: One, he'd look like a failure, and we all know what happens to Sith failures; Two, he may accidentally lead the Republic back to them.

 

Now, in the comics, the Republic NEVER follows him, or searches for the Sith Empire, even. They have their own wounds to lick, and, since Sadow did not make a return visit, they likely moved on in their lives until KotOR I or II (or thereabouts). I'll not discuss the whole "Where did Revan go?" thingy, since nobody can say for sure. But, Malachor V was set up to be a beacon, and it is possible that a small fraction of the original Sith Empire (who have done much as the Republic and moved on after the loss of their leader, Kressh/Sadow) detected the massive destruction there.

 

Now, maybe this is all crap I'm puking out of my liver, but it makes sense. If you have any questions or corrections, feel free to add them. I will, of course, try to answer or disprove them.

[indarkestday]

Ahh. I never once considered how much of his army Sadow took with him. That's probably the best explanation of the true Sith that anyone can come up with. Thanks for the info. Although I'm still a little puzzled as to why Kreia mentioned "the end of all things". Maybe she just meant that Revan's war with the Sith is part of the overall lightside-darkside war that will always be fought.

And yes, I'll admit it... I am a Star Wars Geek. :D

[darthjardon]

Cudos on the explanation, I don't know that much on the Star Wars outside of the KOTOR games and the movies. So that was interesting to hear, most of it I didnt know.

[vaxen83]

And there also lies the ancient remains of Sith that once existed millennia ago within the boundaries of unknown space where remaining Sith from Korriban may have gone to.

Edited November 13, 2005 by vaxen83

[Stargate: 2000]

It would seem to me that this would be the original sith race (or at the very least their decendants [sp?])and not the sadow's followers of the sith religon (i.e. sadows men and women). The only reason I say this is because to have traditional sith beyond the outer rim wouls seem pointless, given the fact that in both games by the time you reach the 10th level you can already kill everyone with out much problem. So it would only sound reasonable that there would be something more powerful beyod known space purhaps another species or something to that effect. I would also think that even if the followers of sadow had gone beyond the rim they as a culture would have evolved similar to that of the sith that still exicted inside known space, given the fact that they were using the same basic belief system and guiding rule to govern themselves as a society. Thus making them virtually a non-existant threat to Revan and the Exile (or really anyone else we could get as a PC). Now I have nothing to back this up other than the fact that it would seem logical too me and my personal opinion on the matter, so I very likely could be wrong.

[darknesslord]

even canderous in kotor 1 says "the sith retreat into their empire in the unknown region. I thought it would be centuries before we see them again" It's highly possible that it's sadow's army. It's my version since a long time. and they would be the true sith, since revan's "sith" are still in the galaxy. and if they planned all this long ago, then if they strike, the republic, the new jedi and the mandalorians will them up, so there's an epic fight

[ProgenitorHK47]

But he couldn't be refering to the followers of Exar Kun? I mean it was forty years ago, and is mentioned by many of the party members.

[darknesslord]

well not really, the krath have been destroyed, and so was exar kun's "army" it wasnt really an army to tell the truth. tho something remainded of the sith war, and stroke at the republic. the mandalorians

[indarkestday]

On a somewhat related note, didn't Sadow die on Yavin IV? If that were the case, then his tomb on Korriban isn't really a tomb, unless his Massassi warriors found a way to get him there.

[darknesslord]

sadow never died, he simplu disapeared. it was exar kun who died on yavin 4 and saved his spirit by killing his massassin warrior in a ritual.

[ProgenitorHK47]

On a somewhat related note, didn't Sadow die on Yavin IV?  If that were the case, then his tomb on Korriban isn't really a tomb, unless his Massassi warriors found a way to get him there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well the Sith could be using an underling's corpse, dressed up as him, in Sadow's absence. It seems like something the Sith would do.

[The Great Phantom]

Sadow went to Yavin IV.

 

Sadow's armies were made up of both Sith and Dark Jedi that had fled the Republic to rule over the Sith (aka, Sith Lords), and mixes of the two (sorta like Marka Ragnos; I believe he was full Sith race, though).

 

So, naturally, if my idea has any ounce of correct-ness in it, the remnants of the 'Sith Empire' will have a bit of human and sith blood in them. They will be the heirs to the ancient Sith 'magic' (aka, poison, subterfuge, and murder; you know, the usual).

 

This brings up a quick idea I have: The Sith (race, way before they were taken over by exiled Jedi) aided in the destruction of the 'Old Ones' (I forgot the name of the race from KotOR I; sorry ). The supercomputer in the first game tells you of how the Empire was destroyed (civil wars, an odd absense of force-sensitivity), and one key portion was a massive plague that affected only the 'Old Ones'. The Sith race, before the Jedi came, were already master alchemists, and were, by all accounts, easily capable of creating this plague. This idea came to me when the computer said that the plague may have been created by a Slave Race... Just a side-theory.

 

Any more questions, class?

 

Edit: Oh, yeah, one more thing: Exar Kun's spirit is currently locked in some temple on Yavin IV, never to return until Luke's time. So, both Kun and Sadow (who's ghost taught Freedon Nadd until Nadd killed it) are not options for foes. And, before you say it, neither is Nadd: Kun returned the favor Nadd performed on Sadow, and killed his ghost. I think that's right, anyway... lemme go dig it up later...

Edited November 14, 2005 by The Great Phantom

[Grazza]

I thought the Sith that Darth Traya was referring to were the original Sith species, who were conquered by the Dark Jedi millenia ago, and now live in the Sith Empire in the unknown regions.

[darknesslord]

sadow was in a kind of cocoon and only reemerged when he saw freedon nadd I believe. with exar kun, it was ragnos ghost? hell I always forget wich one (ragnos or sadow) die, but I do know that one is alive

[The Great Phantom]

It was Nadd who taught Exar Kun. Nadd was in turn taught by the ghost of Sadow. Kun destroyed Nadd's ghost, which Nadd did to Sadow.

 

It may be the Sith Species, or it may not; either way, by the time Naga Sadow blew things for the Sith, the human overlords and sith 'lessers' had become 1 culture, and had even interbred (creating various social classes and junk).

[darknesslord]

An ambitious Jedi Knight, FREEDON NADD, followed rumor and intrigue to the isolated YAVIN SYSTEM. Six hundred years after the entombment of their former master, the Massassi Warriors turned to savage primates, but violent combat with Nadd changed to awe as he used the Force to show the Massassi their past, and unearthed their leader. Sadow taught Nadd dark twistings of the Force, offering him Sith weapons and abilities no other Jedi Knight could withstand. Freedon Nadd leaves Yavin 4 soon afterwards, intent on becoming the king of ONDERON, a primitive world outside of the Old Republic's boundaries. The fate of Sadow remained a mystery.

 

 

actually sadow disappeared right after he taught the sith arcane to nadd, before nadd left for onderon. and sadow was alived, he was in a dormant state on yavin 4

Edited November 15, 2005 by darknesslord

[The Great Phantom]

That sounds about right, thanks. Still, I found this clip here, and it sorta argues with that a bit.

 

"Later, Naga Sadow's spirit appeared and he became the Master of Freedon Nadd, giving him much Sith lore and artifacts aboard his now-buried flagship. However, in his weakened state as a spirit, Freedon Nadd was able to overthrow him and ended up killing Naga Sadow before he could reach his full potential. Whatever the truth, neither Naga Sadow nor his spirit were around by the time Exar Kun arrived on Yavin IV centuries later."

 

Either way, Sadow's out of the picture. (Where'd you get that clip? Or did you just paraphrase something? Just curious.)

[darknesslord]

well I found the same things on every web site I searched. I'm confused. did you read the comics about him? if not, do someone did? I really want to know what happened to that guy

[vaxen83]

If some of those sith lords that may have been extinct for centuries were resurrected, it is possible to for them to have powers in K3 that usual Sith force users may not be capable of utilising against a PC.

[Musopticon?]

Yes.

 

 

As for the changes of them getting resurrected: Nil, zero, never, aldrig.

Edited November 15, 2005 by Musopticon?

[The Great Phantom]

I've read the comics. I'll check it out, 'darknesslord', and get back to you about what I find.

 

Vaxen, what I think may make a neato KotorIII would be an army of Nihilus's (Nihili?). A ton of weird paradoxical life-suckering Sith would be a neat threat to have to defeat/rule...

[The Great Phantom]

Okay, this may help clear a few things up (way to go, darknesslord, you corrected my failing memory! ):

 

"Searching for the Sith, Nadd inevitably heard rumours of Yavin IV. The forest moon's strong presence in the dark side only lured him more avidly. There he came upon the former Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow, who had used a technique to suspend bodily animation and enter a coma on the moon at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, where he remained for over 400 years. Until Nadd came. Sadow awoke, and began training Nadd, gifting him with the Sith artifacts and sought to complete his training under Sadow. Before his training was complete, however, Freedon felt he was strong enough to conquer and claim the Sith throne as his own. It is believed that he killed Sadow ("believed" as no source explicitly says that Nadd did kill Sadow. It is known that Sadow died at some point after Nadd's arrival as Luke Skywalker's Jedi Praxeum could detect no remaining Sith presence after the extermination of Exar Kun, and Exar Kun found the moon devoid of other Sith as well.) before traveling to Korriban, an ancient Sith burial planet, to complete his training once more. "

 

A neato quote that does explain a few things. If Sadow does come back in Kotor III, though, it probably won't even be worth buying... anybody want a picture of the "Idiot-who-ruined-all-that-the-Sith-had-going-for-them"?

[darknesslord]

well that explains a few things thanks

 

"Idiot-who-ruined-all-that-the-Sith-had-going-for-them"?

 

dont know about that. I think it could be great, fight sith alchemy could be hard and all. And I dont think he ruined anything, he cripled the republic

[The Great Phantom]

Nay. This stuff I'm about to spew out is paraphrased straight from the DS Sourcebook:

 

Marka Ragnos read the ancient lore brought by the original Dark Jedi to conquer the Sith Species. In it, they mentioned a powerful race of Force-Warriors (the Jedi), which protected an even stronger 'empire.' Ragnos knew that, should the Sith come in contact with this 'empire,' they would die since they were not prepared. So, during his long rule, he used his cunning to instigate civil wars amidst the Sith, letting them all hate him and attempt to kill each other and himself, so that their limitless expansion slowed to a halt. When he died, so did his plan. When Sadow fought Kressh at his funeral, he appeared to warn them to join together and be wise during the upcoming events. Then the Daragons arrived, and his advice went unheeded. Sadow used their arrival to attack this great new 'empire' as a test of the Sith's true strength, not knowing what he was getting into. Kressh was a little more cautious, but the Sith at the time were too full of the remnants of the bloodlust that the civil wars had brought on them, so he went mostly unheard.

 

And then Sadow goes and attacks, and the rest is history. Basically, he hurts them badly, but the Sith Empire, for all intents and purposes, crumbles. Kressh dies, Sadow flees, and their respective armies are either destroyed or degenerate into Massassi warriors, who all die after Exar Kun, anyway.

 

So, the only hope for 'true Sith', imo, are those that did not join either armies, or did not participate in that final battle where the Sith were quashed at the Republic only temporarily scarred. I hope that, in Kotor III, we may find that the Sith Empire was only scarred, as well, and that they have been building themselves up, "waiting for a command that will never come" or somesuch (Malachor V was to be used as a beacon, but for what? Hmm...).

 

Just what I've read and come up with on my own. My opinions only, Sadow was a military genious, just a little too hasty.

 

If Sadow actually makes an appearance, though, I'll just call the Devs lazy, though...

Edited November 15, 2005 by The Great Phantom