Amerika

[mkreku]

"If one were to take the draping of the statue with the stars and stripes as the US claiming Iraq, should one then take the subsequent draping of it in the Iraqi flag as the US giving sovereignty back to Iraq?"

 

No.

Your logic fails to deliver.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it makes perfect sense. How about you try to type a longer reply while drinking vodka and trying to kill yourself at the same time?!

[213374U]

If a foreign country invaded my own and raised its flag over my territory, I would take that as a sign of conquest.  The fact that my country's flag is flying next to it is neither here nor there.

Good point.

 

Oh, wait. The US de-facto conquered Iraq. I guess that, as always, might makes right. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[213374U]

No, it makes perfect sense. How about you try to type a longer reply while drinking vodka and trying to kill yourself at the same time?!

Well, I only have two hands. So I guess I won't kill myself just yet, as surely you don't expect me to quit drinking my vodka.

 

Anyway, you seem to have an excess of testosterone. How about you go donate a testicle or something?

[metadigital]

"listen to what other intelligent, dispassionate observers are saying; their critique is not a criticism."

 

I will look up that word. Even though English is not my native language, I understand that spellings can sometimes be quite complex for similar sounding words.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[mkreku]

No, it makes perfect sense. How about you try to type a longer reply while drinking vodka and trying to kill yourself at the same time?!

Well, I only have two hands. So I guess I won't kill myself just yet, as surely you don't expect me to quit drinking my vodka.

 

Anyway, you seem to have an excess of testosterone. How about you go donate a testicle or something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since people are stereotyping so heavily in this pathetic thread, I joked about the swedish stereotype of finns.

 

I didn't expect you to get it so.. move along, nothing to see here.

[Opus131]

I don't think folks are jealous of our freedom, but I would think that free people everywhere would value freedom.  American isn't the source of freedom, merely the proud recipient of it.

 

America is nice, but if you want freedom there are better places to look for...

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Your logic fails to deliver."

 

It was, in fact, my imitation of one the stereotypes discussed before, done for the purpose of amusement. Then I was compelled by Steve's arguments. Now I'm watching the debate and will decide what I wanted it to express after all is said and done. Then it will have never meant anything other than just that.

 

edit: Oh, Meta, now you're just taking all the fun out of it.

[213374U]

Since people are stereotyping so heavily in this pathetic thread, I joked about the swedish stereotype of finns.

 

I didn't expect you to get it so.. move along, nothing to see here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My apologies then. But if you didn't expect me to get it, why did you make the joke in the first place? Another Swedish in-joke?

[Dark Moth]

Since people are stereotyping so heavily in this pathetic thread,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup, have to agree. Amazing how anything having to do with the U.S.A. attracts so much arguing. Go America.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Oh, wait. The US de-facto conquered Iraq. I guess that, as always, might makes right.

De-facto conquered, is it? US troops are certainly in Iraq. They are occupying parts of it and have some degree of control over most, more in some areas, less in others. I don't know if there's a phrase in English to describe precisely what the US did, but 'de-facto conquered' doesn't fit the reality, then or now.

 

The flag-draping soldier's indiscretion aside, the US was generally wise enough not to act like a conqueror, in an attempt to gain, if not the support, at least the acquiescence, of the population. They succeeded with some, but not enough. Marks for effort, perhaps.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[mkreku]

My apologies then. But if you didn't expect me to get it, why did you make the joke in the first place? Another Swedish in-joke?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because some of the other people reading this thread would get it. Hey, the finn started the bad humour (another finnish stereotype by the way), don't blame me!

[metadigital]

...

I wasn't "acting the stereotype".  It was a misunderstanding of Lucius's post, and I acted accordingly.  As for my comment about Lucius, since I was wrong about it, I take it back. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You were sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "We did nothing wrong!" whilst others, less histrionic, were trying to politely point out that you may have completely misread the political situation.

 

And as to the bit you cut out of your reply, I thought I made that pretty clear by including it after the colon and adding a closing remark after it. I don't know how to be clearer than that, without sending you an engraved copy of your reply.

[213374U]

De-facto conquered, is it?  US troops are certainly in Iraq.  They are occupying parts of it and have some degree of control over most, more in some areas, less in others.  I don't know if there's a phrase in English to describe precisely what the US did, but 'de-facto conquered' doesn't fit the reality, then or now.

Funny. I guess that Germany didn't conquer France, either.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"My apologies then. But if you didn't expect me to get it, why did you make the joke in the first place?"

 

Oh, silly Numbers, I don't aim for the lowest common denominator!

 

Also, good night.

[metadigital]

Good afternoon, good evening and good night.

Truman

[Dark Moth]

You were sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "We did nothing wrong!" whilst others, less histrionic, were trying to politely point out that you may have completely misread the political situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll say it again slowly so you can understand: It...was...a...mis..under...standing. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that. I misinterpreted his post, and responded to it. If you still don't believe me, re-read my all my posts and keep any further flaming off this thread.

 

So long.

[213374U]

"My apologies then. But if you didn't expect me to get it, why did you make the joke in the first place?"

 

Oh, silly Numbers, I don't aim for the lowest common denominator!

 

Also, good night.

Oh, but I would never contribute to this fine thread being locked. No, no. Never...

[SteveThaiBinh]

Funny. I guess that Germany didn't conquer France, either. 

My knowledge of WW2 history is woefully lacking. Are you saying that the French Resistance caused as much damage and problems for the Germans as the insurgents/terrorists/combatents are doing in Iraq?

 

Once again, a discussion about America turns to thoughts of Iraq. Is Iraq really the cause of the increase in anti-American sentiment, or just the focal point for a trend that was already in evidence beforehand?

[Walsingham]

It never ceases to amaze me how the media managed to twist this incident with the flag draping, and the statue felling. I took the day off work so I could watch the unedited live feed on the BBC, and saw what actually happened.

 

1. The US Marines roll up to the hotel the press are in. The press decide this means the Capital has been taken. The government sector, where various ministries are, as well as accomodation for Republican Guards and fedayeen has not yet been taken, and overlooks the area. The statue is in the area.

 

2. The marines fan out, and leave the statue well enough alone. Journalists, including the BBc's Rageh Omar descend on the marines. The marines produce a number of emotional but intelligent comments on the import of the moment and how this moment is really for the Iraqi people. None of them are banging on about America being the best, and inventors of the frankfurter, etc.

 

3. A crowd of Iraqis turn up. It is not a large crowd, and anti-invasioneers later claim this is because the Iraqis did not like what was happening. In fact, any Iraqis turning up at all was surprising, given a lack of power meant there was no way for news of the marines' arrival to spread other than word of mouth. These Iraqis gather at the statue and mill around, hugging marines and hurling abuse at the statue.

 

4. Shots are fired at the crowd from a nearby towerblock. This causes many to run for cover, as you do. The footage of the statue now shows an even smaller number of folks around it. No further shots are fired.

 

5. For more than half an hour (possibly much longer) the poor b****rs try desperately to topple this thing. They use their fist and shoes to begin with. One marine tells rageh Omar that they are deliberately notgetting involved because this is a moment for the Iraqis. Eventually, however, the locals beg/borrow a sledge hammer from some sappers, and set to with that.

 

6. This continues until finally it is clear that the Iraqis cannot topple saddam's statue on their own. So the marines and the Iraqis collaborate to loop first a rope and then a steel cable around the statue.

 

7. While this is happening _one_ marine decides to whip a US flag out of his pocket and put it over the statue's face. His mates immediately start yelling at him to take it off. It is clear that they think he is an idiot.

 

8. In the wake of this, there is some confusion, as the marines try to make it up to the Iraqis. They put up an Iraqi flag, but then someone points out it is the Saddam Iraqi flag, and they take that off too.

 

9. The world media gives none of the soundbites of the marines who are respectful and intelligent. None of teh soundbites of the Iraqis crying and thanking the jarheads for being there in the first place. They show ONE picture of triumphalism, and the moment is branded as kakka.

[213374U]

My knowledge of WW2 history is woefully lacking.  Are you saying that the French Resistance caused as much damage and problems for the Germans as the insurgents/terrorists/combatents are doing in Iraq? 

No, I don't think they did. But then again, they didn't have suicide bombers. And the actions of resistance or terrorist groups doesn't really change the military/administrative reality of a territory. Iraq, just like France was, is an occupied territory. Only them clever Amerikans have made friends with some of the locals and let them take a great deal of the heat.

 

Oh, wait. I think they did something similar in France, too. "

 

 

Once again, a discussion about America turns to thoughts of Iraq.  Is Iraq really the cause of the increase in anti-American sentiment, or just the focal point for a trend that was already in evidence beforehand?

It's the same example people always bring up for the simple reason that they can't accept that while contrary to what we would like to believe, might does make right. Always has, and I'm hard pressed not to say it always will. But hey, I can't see the future yet.

[Musopticon?]

Thanks for clearing, Walsh.

[Cantousent]

The resistance in France was considerably greater than the Iraqi resistence. ...And the Germans treated resistance far more ruthlessly during world war two than the U.S. does now. The resistance in Germany was far more violent than the Iraqi resistance.

 

Let's be honest here, whether we were right or wrong to invade Iraq, how many of you truly believe that most Iraqi's support the insurgency? The United States doesn't act like Saddam Hussein. The citizens could be doing so much more to hamper the coalition. I see the response in Iraq as more or less positive in terms of politics, even though the country remains a mess.

 

The insurgency is a phenomenal failure in terms of creating a real effect in military terms. The United States can afford to lose the same number of servicemen every year, real deaths of real American citizens, and not even blink in terms of actual numbers of military in country. The problem isn't that the resistance will overpower the United States military. The true goal is to force the American public to balk at the loss of life and force a policy change.

 

The resistance movement in countries during world war two wasn't meant to sway public opinion in Germany. It was meant to have an actual effect on the war effort.

[metadigital]

I'll say it again slowly so you can understand:  It...was...a...mis..under...standing.    I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.  I misinterpreted his post, and responded to it.  If you still don't believe me, re-read my all my posts and keep any further flaming off this thread.

 

So long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're doing it again!

 

I am not being rude or belligerent; you are just not happy to hear a (very minor) criticism!

 

Boy, you really ought to get some perspective: debate just isn't your forte.

[213374U]

Let's be honest here, whether we were right or wrong to invade Iraq, how many of you truly believe that most Iraqi's support the insurgency?  The United States doesn't act like Saddam Hussein.  The citizens could be doing so much more to hamper the coalition.  I see the response in Iraq as more or less positive in terms of politics, even though the country remains a mess.

There is proof of this, you know. The last Iraqi elections had a HUGE participation, even though the baddies had threatened to bomb the electoral sites, killing anyone that supported the change.

[Walsingham]

I hate to say this, both of you, but you need to re-read your history. The French resistance were significantly more dangerous than the Iraqis are. This is possibly because we are not doing things like indiscriminately slaughtering civilians in revenge attacks, depriving them of all democratic rights and freedoms, and trying to keep the people in a permanent state of terror. You know, like the Nazis did in France, or Saddam Hussein did in Iraq.

 

The way he would still be doing right now, if we hadn't invaded.