Gaza Strip

[LoneWolf16]

Good god...It just keeps going.

 

I can't stand it, I'm off to bed. Play nice you guys.

[EnderAndrew]

Good god...It just keeps going.

 

I can't stand it, I'm off to bed. Play nice you guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about this.

 

You move into my neighborhood. I suggest that I don't want any people named LoneWolf in my neighborhood, so I murder your family. Then I propose that there would be peace if you gave me your home, and all of your belongings. Then the police come in and force you to conceed, and yet I attempt to kill you and your remaining relatives anyway.

 

And then you watch the world defend me. How would you feel?

 

Imagine facing that prejudice your whole life, to the extent that you know countless people would simply kill you for being who you are, and being told to play nice with those who seek your death.

[Commissar]

Good god...It just keeps going.

 

I can't stand it, I'm off to bed. Play nice you guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about this.

 

You move into my neighborhood. I suggest that I don't want any people named LoneWolf in my neighborhood, so I murder your family. Then I propose that there would be peace if you gave me your home, and all of your belongings. Then the police come in and force you to conceed, and yet I attempt to kill you and your remaining relatives anyway.

 

And then you watch the world defend me. How would you feel?

 

Imagine facing that prejudice your whole life, to the extent that you know countless people would simply kill you for being who you are, and being told to play nice with those who seek your death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except that that's not a good analogy. Lonewolf would have to move into your neighborhood by taking your house and telling you to go live under a bridge. And to make sure you did it, he'd have a couple of big Mafia goombahs backing him up. You wouldn't like it, and your neighbors wouldn't like it. One of them might even try to get your house back for you. Except they'd fail, and then you'd decide that the neighbor's house is yours, too.

[LoneWolf16]

Good god...It just keeps going.

 

I can't stand it, I'm off to bed. Play nice you guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about this.

 

You move into my neighborhood. I suggest that I don't want any people named LoneWolf in my neighborhood, so I murder your family. Then I propose that there would be peace if you gave me your home, and all of your belongings. Then the police come in and force you to conceed, and yet I attempt to kill you and your remaining relatives anyway.

 

And then you watch the world defend me. How would you feel?

 

Imagine facing that prejudice your whole life, to the extent that you know countless people would simply kill you for being who you are, and being told to play nice with those who seek your death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did......did you just make a thinly veiled threat to murder my family? And while I sleep, no less?

 

Ender, that's a bit uncouth, don't you think?

 

Now, leave me be. I need sleep, arguing about something I can't change, or even affect in the slightest at 5:40 in the morning just isn't right.

[EnderAndrew]

Except that that's not a good analogy.  Lonewolf would have to move into your neighborhood by taking your house and telling you to go live under a bridge.  And to make sure you did it, he'd have a couple of big Mafia goombahs backing him up.  You wouldn't like it, and your neighbors wouldn't like it.  One of them might even try to get your house back for you.  Except they'd fail, and then you'd decide that the neighbor's house is yours, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except not all Palestinians were removed from homes. A small portion were, a very small portion. And they killed Jews before they were removed from homes. And that incident happened 50 years ago.

 

So maybe Lonewolf's relatives did something bad to my relatives 50 years ago, and I consider that justification to murder his family, while he is forced to give up his home to me, and like it.

[Commissar]

Except not all Palestinians were removed from homes.  A small portion were, a very small portion.  And they killed Jews before they were removed from homes.  And that incident happened 50 years ago.

 

So maybe Lonewolf's relatives did something bad to my relatives 50 years ago, and I consider that justification to murder his family, while he is forced to give up his home to me, and like it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm using "home" as a metaphor for "land."

 

Edit: And "neighbor" for "other Arab states in the Middle East."

[EnderAndrew]

If Palestinians are justified in murdering innocent civilians (which they aren't) because of a land grab 50 years ago, then Jews should be justified in killing everyone of Roman descent, or Egyptian descent for the times they were forcibly removed from their homeland.

 

Let's throw Germany in there for good measure.

 

People's lack of logical arguements astound me.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Then why give up the Gaza Strip if Palestine can't crack down on terrorism?  They've asked for countless concessions over the years and never held up their end of the bargain anyway.

I'm sorry, but what are these concessions? What does an illegal occupier concede to an occupied people?

And I though Bush's policy was that if your harbor and support terrorism, that we will hold you accountable.  Why does this not apply to Palestine?

Since when does the rest of the world accept Bush's policy? Bush has no interest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - why this should be, we can only speculate.

 

The Palestinian Authority is far from perfect. but it represents, on this issue at least, the will of the Palestinian people - it is not a gang that has seized power like the Taleban. If you weaken it, what are you hoping will replace it?

The only person I've seen mention peace was Yassar Arafat, and all the while he funded terrorism.  Lies don't count.

Link. You say he's lying when he says he's trying to stop the attacks? I'd say he's doing everything he can to hold his government and people together and push them towards peace, despite the extremely weak position he's been put in by the Israelis.

 

 

And what about people like this? Don't they get on the media?

Jerusalem is the finest example of how the Jews have demonstated peace, diplomacy and patience.  I can't believe anyone would suggest the Jews give up their crown jewel to appease terrorists.

Link. What Israel has demonstrated in Jerusalem is arrogance, deceit and intolerance. How many Palestinians have been evicted from their homes, in order to make Jerusalem a Jewish city?

[alanschu]

The Allied bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were, no matter how the U.S. Government would like to put it, shock tactics used to bash the enemy into submission.

 

They can claim all of the industry and military significance they want (although no one seems to be questioning the validity of said information), but they did bomb innocent lives. Dresden is often debated as to whether or not it is a war crime.

 

Ender, you get upset at people justifying and rationalizing the murder of innocent people, when you did so yourself.

 

One could argue the deaths of 120,000 people prevented the deaths of millions.

 

In the exact same post, you said this shortly afterwards:

 

However, murdering innocent civilians is never acceptable.

 

Had Japan not surrendered, Tokyo was the third target.

 

 

I think you also take too much of the media at face value. It's in Israel's best interest to not report the slaughter of innocent Palestinians. How much credence will we give a pro-Palestinian news report that mentions the slaughter of innocent civilians. We right that off as propaganda, yet the Israeli reports are good enough?

 

I'd say well over 90% of the Europeans I've spoken to are very much Pro-Palestine and don't care for Israel in the least. I've also been told that anti-semitism is very common in Europe.

 

Nobody that I personally know, outside of Arabs, are pro-Palestine. I'm not sure what your newspapers report, but ours are always laden with suicide bombings and the deaths of innocent Israeli people. The only Palestinian casualties are "collateral damage." Hooray for anecdotal evidence though.

 

 

Israeli troops kill Palestinian girl in the Gaza Strip.

 

Israeli forces kill another Palestinian girl inside school

 

Israeli rights group: "Trigger-happy attitude among Israeli soldiers"

 

Various statistics comparing Israel and Palestine

 

16 Palestinian Children Killed and 23 Permanently Handicapped During the Intifada in Tulkarem

[EnderAndrew]

How are they illegally occupying?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=illegal

 

The governing body of Palestine said legally Palestine had to share and they refused. The world governing body said Palestine had to share and they refused. The only one doing anything illegal is Palestine.

 

And I guess murder would be a legal response?

[EnderAndrew]

Israeli troops kill Palestinian girl in the Gaza Strip.

 

Israeli forces kill another Palestinian girl inside school

 

Israeli rights group: "Trigger-happy attitude among Israeli soldiers"

 

Various statistics comparing Israel and Palestine

 

16 Palestinian Children Killed and 23 Permanently Handicapped During the Intifada in Tulkarem

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many stories are you leaving out where children were intentionally targetted by Palestinians?

 

Name one instance where Israel intentionally targets children?

 

Terrorists bring violence to civilians and then blame others when a governing body incurs collateral damage. If terrorists attacked the government directly, say on a less public battlefield, collateral damage would be decreased.

[SteveThaiBinh]

How are they illegally occupying?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=illegal

 

The governing body of Palestine said legally Palestine had to share and they refused.  The world governing body said Palestine had to share and they refused.  The only one doing anything illegal is Palestine.

 

And I guess murder would be a legal response?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe Israel is illegally occupying because there are United Nations Security Council resolutions ordering it to withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, which excludes the Occupied Territories. The US occupation of Iraq was also deemed illegal by most of the rest of the world until a United Nations resolution was passed legitimising it.

 

The Israelis and Palestines should indeed share 'Palestine', as it appears on the British Mandate map. That does not mean that Israeli have the right to throw Palestinians out of existing settlements and claim the land for themselves.

 

Could you please tell us what are the concessions that you claim Israel has made or been called upon to make?

[EnderAndrew]

You've never heard of these concessions but you quote one?

 

The UN wants Israel to conceed to terrorism.

 

And funny how you say the US illegally invaded Iraq when they did so with the authorization of the UN, and backed by 30 countries, yet you insist most of the world said it was illegal?

 

Who constitutes most of the world? France, Germany and Russia?

 

I can list over 30 countries that added the war in Iraq.

 

Futhermore, you say we should enforce UNSCR on Israel, but apparently we shouldn't against Iraq.

 

That's being awful hypocritcal of you, isn't it?

[SteveThaiBinh]

Name one instance where Israel intentionally targets children?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, as I said, I don't accept the self-serving distinction between targetting civilians and conducting actions targetted at non-civilians but which you know are highly likely to result in civilian deaths.

 

Israel assassinated a Hamas leader in an attack which also killed nine children. Ariel Sharon called it "a great success".

 

I think I've mentioned Caoimhe Butterly before - she was an Irish peace protestor in the Occupied Territories who was shot by an Israeli soldier while shielding children with her body. As she has red hair, it's unlikely the soldier mistook her for a terrorist, so that suggests that he was targetting the children, or shooting randomly in a civilian area.

[EnderAndrew]

But we're arguing legal and illegal. We're arguing right and wrong.

 

In both cases intent is crucial.

 

So intent doesn't matter.

 

I asked initially why it is acceptable for people to be forced out of their homes to appease terrorists. It's nice to know that you have no qualms with that.

[alanschu]

Name one instance where Israel intentionally targets children?

 

I mentioned one.

 

Israeli forces kill another Palestinian girl inside school

 

According to preliminary investigations conducted by PCHR, at approximately 12:00 on Monday, 31 January 2005, IOF positioned at the Egyptian border, south of Rafah, opened fire at an UNRWA elementary school in al-Brazil neighborhood, nearly 600 meters away from the border.

 

 

How many stories are you leaving out where children were intentionally targetted by Palestinians?

 

STOP! I never said the Palestinians weren't doing it. You were asking for situations when Israel opened fire on innocents.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I asked initially why it is acceptable for people to be forced out of their homes to appease terrorists. It's nice to know that you have no qualms with that.

 

Why should people be forced out of homes because we feel bad for Jews because of the Holocaust?

[SteveThaiBinh]

You've never heard of these concessions but you quote one?

Are you really going to keep dodging the question?

And funny how you say the US illegally invaded Iraq when they did so with the authorization of the UN, and backed by 30 countries, yet you insist most of the world said it was illegal?

I do indeed.

That's being awful hypocritcal of you, isn't it?

Not in the slightest. I'm not saying that we should enforce UNSCR on Israel by military force, as you well know. The weapons inspectors were enforcing UNSCR peacefully before the US launched its illegal war of aggression. If you want to argue that yet again, better to do it on a separate thread.

[EnderAndrew]

Funny.

 

The BBC can't find anything about a school in Rafah. CNN doesn't have a story. In fact, no major news network does.

 

But searching for other versions of the stories reports that no one saw an Israeli solider shoot at the school. Gunfire was heard near the border, and the girl got shot.

 

The school is also being run 800 meters from a border where there is active conflict on both sides.

 

So while it was never actually confirmed that the bullet came from an Israeli soldier, and no reputable news agency ran the story, you quote a source that paints Palestine completely as a victim in every one of their stories. I couldn't find a single article on that website about terrorist attacks blowing up Jewish schools.

 

Some source.

[EnderAndrew]

Not in the slightest.  I'm not saying that we should enforce UNSCR on Israel by military force, as you well know.  The weapons inspectors were enforcing UNSCR peacefully before the US launched its illegal war of aggression.  If you want to argue that yet again, better to do it on a separate thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UNSCR said the cease-fire in Iraq was contingent on Iraq's complete duplicity in the manner. Then some 75 seperate UNSCRs said Iraq was not complying. UN law said we had a right to go in, and the UN officially said we had a right to go in.

 

I asked what nations said it was illegal. I know of 3, and all had financial ties to Iraq and weren't objective on the issue. I can name 30 nations that supported the war, and the UN recognized it as legal.

 

Calling it illegal is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. A blatant misrepresentation of the facts is a lie.

[alanschu]

So while it was never actually confirmed that the bullet came from an Israeli soldier, and no reputable news agency ran the story, you quote a source that paints Palestine completely as a victim in every one of their stories. I couldn't find a single article on that website about terrorist attacks blowing up Jewish schools.

 

Some source.

 

Simply because CNN or the BBC doesn't report it means it didn't happen?

[EnderAndrew]

So while it was never actually confirmed that the bullet came from an Israeli soldier, and no reputable news agency ran the story, you quote a source that paints Palestine completely as a victim in every one of their stories. I couldn't find a single article on that website about terrorist attacks blowing up Jewish schools.

 

Some source.

 

Simply because CNN or the BBC doesn't report it means it didn't happen?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but I can't find a single objective outlet that said it did, but I can find articles that contradict his and say that gunfire was heard in the area of the border. That doesn't mean the bullet came from an Israeli solder or that a child was intentionally targetted.

 

I take it most of you haven't fired high-powered rifles or seen bullets richochet?

 

I was pulling "butts" undernearth a rifle range when I saw a bullet hit the post of a target, bonce off a rock, hit some dirt and then drill through a kevlar helmet.

 

The website he linked to reports only one side of the news. Without any objective source, and with other reports contradicting it, I say the story is suspect.

[alanschu]

UN officially said we had a right to go in

 

I was under the impression that they went in without UN approval.

 

 

Since the invasion began without the explicit approval of the United Nations Security Council, some legal authorities regard it as a violation of the U.N. Charter. United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in September 2004, "From our point of view and the U.N. charter point of view, it was illegal." [2] There have been no formal charges under international law.

[EnderAndrew]

Doesn't anyone have a response for this:

 

If Palestinians are justified in murdering innocent civilians (which they aren't) because of a land grab 50 years ago, then Jews should be justified in killing everyone of Roman descent, or Egyptian descent for the times they were forcibly removed from their homeland.

 

Let's throw Germany in there for good measure.

 

People's lack of logical arguements astound me.

 

I think I'll just keep repeating it until someone does come up with a response to it.

[alanschu]

Without any objective source, and with other reports contradicting it, I say the story is suspect

 

There's no such thing as an objective source.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I asked what nations said it was illegal.  I know of 3, and all had financial ties to Iraq and weren't objective on the issue.  I can name 30 nations that supported the war, and the UN recognized it as legal.

Kofi Annan called it illegal. Evidence has emerged that the UK's legal advisors thought it was probably illegal until they changed their minds, for no apparent reason, shortly before the invasion. It's true that the legal position isn't entirely clear (what law ever is?), so 'of questionable and unproven legality' might be a more strictly accurate description, but I think 'illegal' serves. It's certainly my opinion, and as I said, the opinion of most of the world.

Calling it illegal is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.  A blatant misrepresentation of the facts is a lie.

Now you've called me a liar and a hypocrite. What's next, anti-Semite? Honestly, Ender, I know that Comissar wanted more active political debate on the forum, but I don't think he meant that we should sink to that level.