Would Mace Windu Have beaten Sidious?

[Retnuh]

This topic is still here?!?!?! I don't get it. Mace had no chance. NONE! Jackson's level of "coolness" can not save him.

[jodo kast 5]

Hey, i found that picture of the original Mace Arrest but its in my Documents folder can someone tell me how to upload it onto here?

[jodo kast 5]

hello, help?

[jaguars4ever]

1. First convert it to JPEG if it's in BMP. Not required, but it speeds up the download: Open up paint program-->Save as-->Choose *JPEG under the format pull-down menu.

 

2. "Add Reply"-->Click on browse button next to the "add this attachment" button-->locate you pic in My Documents-->Click on the "add this attachment" button

 

3. Click on the "add reply" button next to the "preview post" button.

 

[Calax]

at the bottom hit the browse button pick it and then type your message and post, it should appear.

[jodo kast 5]

here we go, thanks

[alanschu]

I think it makes Anakin's Fall more sympathetic in the released version, rather than having Mace come to whup-azz on both of them.

[EnderAndrew]

Okay, a lot of people seem to either be unhappy with Anakin's fall to the darkside, or they don't get it. Let me tangent here for a moment.

 

So as a Star Wars geek, I figure I'd break it down and see if it starts to make a bit more sense for other people. To do so, we have to go back to Episode 1 for a moment.

 

I know, I know. It sucked. But here we have little Annie. Wasn't that a great idea? Anyways, he lives the white-boy version of slavery, where he gets to run free, play with his friends, race and tinker with things. However, he is a Momma's boy. And the one thing that bothers him in life is that his mother is a slave. The other important thing to note is that everyone tells him that he's uber-powerful, and he saves the day in the Battle over Naboo, despite being a tyke.

 

Now, fast-forward to Episode II, which is more palpatable. Again, he knows he is a child of prophecy, and extremely powerful, but the Jedi go out of their way to hold him back. He has premonitions about his mother dying, but he is told to ignore such things and follow orders. The Jedi dogma keeps Anakin from saving his mother's life. He promised to rescue her and failed. Then then swears to never allow something like that to happen again.

 

Fast forward to Episode III. Anakin is the most powerful Jedi alive, save perhaps for Yoda, but they refuse to compliment him or call him Master. They're afraid of feeding his ego, but instead they frustrate him and fuel his rage. That's wise. He has visions of Padme's death, and Yoda tells him to let go and get over it. That's ****ing helpful. Yoda saw what happened with Anakin's mother, and doesn't put two and two together. Anakin failed on two promises, and he won't fail on his third promise to protect Padme.

 

Anakin doesn't have much in life except for two people. Obi-Wan and Padme are everything in the world to him. Obi-Wan however doesn't compliment Anakin, or show any praise. He praises Anakin to Yoda and Mace, not realizing that all Anakin needed was compassion. The one person to show Anakin compassion is Padme, and the Jedi order tell him to let Padme die.

 

Compound that with the Jedi Order suddenly telling him to not trust, and spy on the one person who does give Anakin praise and compliments. Anakin is a soldier. He doesn't plot or politic, nor does he have any love for it. If the Jedi placated him with praise, he never would have turned. Instead, they stifle him and refuse to utilize him. All Anakin wanted was to use his power and serve a cause. The Jedi cast him aside, and Palpatine offered him a new cause. Palpatine put him to work and fed Anakin's ego.

 

Even better, Palpatine offered Anakin the one thing he desperately needed and couldn't find anywhere else, and that was a way to keep his promise and protect the one person truly dear to him.

 

Did Anakin turn on a dime? No. And that shocked me. I was worried that in watching the film I wouldn't know when to support Anakin as a character, and when we were to lose empathy for him as he turns to Vader. Lucas in a bold and genius move keeps Anakin as a dark, yet empathetic role throughout the film.

 

Anakin is Faust, selling his soul to the devil, not because he wants to be evil. Faust is a fool with seemingly good intentions, but fell prey to ambition. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Anakin attacked Mace Windu because Anakin was in the right. He tried to uphold the Jedi ideals, as Mace Windu only sought to strike someone down. And after Mace died, Anakin knew that he had crossed a point of no-return. He could never return to the Jedi.

 

And why would he return to an organization that did lie to him, manipulate him, discourage him, undermine him, stifle him, and contradict their own teachings?

 

Palpatine was genius in his manipulations of all parties involved. Anakin simply wanted to believe there was a cause worth fighting for, and the Jedi could not provide that.

 

Personally, I would have liked to see Palpatine sell it just a tad more when he ordered Anakin to kill the Jedi. In killing the Jedi, he would be saving countless more lives by preventing more years of civil war. He was keeping the Republic/Empire safe and upholding the same vows he had been his whole life.

 

Anakin didn't turn and betray anyone in his mind. He sincerely felt betrayed by everyone else in his life. And as he allowed himself to wrap himself in his pain and anger, he couldn't see reason, let alone the repercussions of his own actions.

 

Some of you can't seem to accept this as a reasonable fall from the Jedi order. Yet I've seen people follow this trend countless times in real life. How many people commit crimes of passion? Are they cold-blooded murderers born evil, or did they allow their own pain and anger cloud their judgement to where they could no longer see the repercussions of their actions?

 

People also seem to really hate Vader shouting "Noooo!", but I think Lucas was trying to invoke a little Tennessee William's level of drama. Instead of Brando screaming "Stella", we hear Vader shout in desperation. If it were Anakin who whined, we could accept it.

 

Vader isn't supposed to show weakness. It destroys the image we want to see.

 

But it doesn't bother me. I see Vader in a new light. He isn't born pure evil, and I prefer my villians like that. RotJ always bothered me before, how Vader was supposed to be pure evil, and he suddenly turns on the Emperor to save his son he never knew.

 

Now RotJ isn't so lame, as we learn that Anakin was once a good man. He also demonstrated his ability to sacrafice everything for his family.

 

When he shouts "Noooo!" in RotS, I see Anakin finally realzing what he has done. His actions sink in, hammering further in the realization that he can never turn back. He has destroyed (in his mind) that which he previously held dear.

[Darth Flatus]

... and its silly to believe that Vader would forget about padme straight away. It would take a further 20 years of rage and resentment for him to be the mean SOB he is in Ep 4.

 

Nicely done Ender aside from a few differences its pretty much the way i think it happened and its the explanation i usually give to counter "his fall was so dumb and too quick!"

 

 

EDIT: The alternative "arrest" pic looks pretty fake to me. But its hard to tell for sure as it is of poor quality.

[Calax]

oy wheels within wheels.

[alanschu]

[EnderAndrew]

Thanks.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Anakin attacked Mace Windu because Anakin was in the right. He tried to uphold the Jedi ideals, as Mace Windu only sought to strike someone down. And after Mace died, Anakin knew that he had crossed a point of no-return. He could never return to the Jedi.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd say it had more to do with guilt over what he did to Dooku. The two pieces are too similiar for it to be an accident. Anakin had already failed as a Jedi when he struck Dooku down while he was harmless, or rather handless.

 

Whether or not he was trying to make up for it is debatable.

[alanschu]

I certainly don't understand why people complained that his turn was so sudden. Especially with his hostile attitude towards Obi-Wan in Episode 2, and the anger/rage towards the Sand People as well.

 

 

I also liked how Obi-Wan accepted the responsibility of Anakin's turn at the end of Episode 3. I even sort of got the idea that he was hoping against hope to "talk some sense" into Anakin in the few parts that they were talking during their final duel.

 

Yoda also makes references to the fact that the Jedi Council has grown arrogant, and perhaps does not always do things as well as it could.

 

 

As for Yoda's discussion with Anakin about his dreams about Padme, I didn't mind that scene either. He says to not mourn those that become one with the force. The lesson itself was a good one...it just wasn't what Anakin wanted to hear so he ignored it. Although I'm curious what Anakin was expecting when consulting Yoda about his dreams.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I also liked how Obi-Wan accepted the responsibility of Anakin's turn at the end of Episode 3.  I even sort of got the idea that he was hoping against hope to "talk some sense" into Anakin in the few parts that they were talking during their final duel.

 

Yoda also makes references to the fact that the Jedi Council has grown arrogant, and perhaps does not always do things as well as it could.

 

 

As for Yoda's discussion with Anakin about his dreams about Padme, I didn't mind that scene either.  He says to not mourn those that become one with the force.  The lesson itself was a good one...it just wasn't what Anakin wanted to hear so he ignored it.  Although I'm curious what Anakin was expecting when consulting Yoda about his dreams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I still dont get why he stood around while Anakin burned though. It made sense in earilier versions I read because Anakin actually fell out of sight but how it's shown in the film its just strange.

 

 

Actually telling him he's some sort of chosen one is probably not the smartest idea either.

He was probably looking for an easy answer. Yoda is a much wiser fellow than Anakin could ever hope to be.

[EnderAndrew]

Is Obi-Wan going to pat him down if lava is burning his flesh off? I doubt Obi-Wan would accomplish much other than burning himself.

 

And perhaps deep down he knew that Anakin had to die, but he couldn't bear to kill him directly. But he could turn away and let Anakin die.

 

If you ask George Lucas, Anakin actually died there. That's why Sebastian Shaw/Old Anakin's Force Ghost was removed from Return of the Jedi, and Hayden/Anakin's was put in. It supposedly reflects when Anakin died and joined the Force truly. Vader was a loose shell, and Obi-Wan wasn't lying when he said Vader killed Anakin.

[alanschu]

I wonder if Obi-Wan also had a hint of satisfaction seeing Anakin suffer.

 

 

Anakin's turn to the darkside seemed to have extreme emotional effects on Obi-Wan, and a little bit of him may not have cared if Vader's last moments were in intense pain.

 

Also, if I were Obi-Wan I wouldn't have expected Sidious to sense Vader in trouble light years away. Vader's death was all but a certainty. He was probably optimistic that Yoda was able to take care of Sidious too!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Is Obi-Wan going to pat him down if lava is burning his flesh off?  I doubt Obi-Wan would accomplish much other than burning himself.

 

And perhaps deep down he knew that Anakin had to die, but he couldn't bear to kill him directly.  But he could turn away and let Anakin die.

 

If you ask George Lucas, Anakin actually died there.  That's why Sebastian Shaw/Old Anakin's Force Ghost was removed from Return of the Jedi, and Hayden/Anakin's was put in.  It supposedly reflects when Anakin died and joined the Force truly.  Vader was a loose shell, and Obi-Wan wasn't lying when he said Vader killed Anakin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's a Jedi he wouldnt even need to go down to retrieve Anakin.

I'd say killing him directly would be the lesser evil of watching him slowly go crispy.

 

That would mean that Obi Wan killed Anakin. I actually found Anakin more evil than Vader ever was.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I wonder if Obi-Wan also had a hint of satisfaction seeing Anakin suffer.

 

 

Anakin's turn to the darkside seemed to have extreme emotional effects on Obi-Wan, and a little bit of him may not have cared if Vader's last moments were in intense pain.

 

Also, if I were Obi-Wan I wouldn't have expected Sidious to sense Vader in trouble light years away.  Vader's death was all but a certainty.  He was probably optimistic that Yoda was able to take care of Sidious too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought that but it dosnt realy seem to tie in with everything else or Obi Wans character. Like I said in all prior writings like the WEG book , it has Anakin falling out of sight so to all intents and purposes Obi Wan thinks he is gone.

[alanschu]

Why wouldn't it tie into Obi-Wan's character? This beast named "Vader" has occupied the shell of Anakin.

 

Plus, Anakin is helpless. Is it the Jedi way to kill helpless people :D j/k

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Why wouldn't it tie into Obi-Wan's character?  This beast named "Vader" has occupied the shell of Anakin.

 

Plus, Anakin is helpless.  Is it the Jedi way to kill helpless people :D j/k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If he was aware of that then I have no doubt he would have chopped him into very small pieces indeed.

 

Despite the j/k tag thats a very fair point. Is it the Jedi way to stand on the sidelines and watch someone suffer.

 

Heres another question which crops up. Did Obi Wan bait Anakin knowing that his overconfidence would lead to his being segmented ? Or did he actually want Anakin to go floating off down the river of lava to jump off at some other point?

[alanschu]

I think Obi-Wan baited him personally.

 

 

I got the impression that for the most part, he went their to destroy Vader. And once seeing him burning and sliding towards the lava, it would be a safe assumption that he would not live.

 

 

Slaughtering Vader in his state because Obi-Wan was angry at Vader destroying his friend Anakin would probably have more darkside influence than leaving him to die. There was nothing that was going to stop his death (except the outside influence from Palpatine, whom Obi-Wan did not anticipate arriving).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think Obi-Wan baited him personally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If that were the case I'd have taken his head off rather than his limbs.

 

I'll probably have another look when it comes out on video. Quite a lot of it seemed forced (forgive the pun) to fit in with what had to occur in the OT.

[alanschu]

Meh, the arms and legs were easier to get

[Darth Flatus]

The jedi seem like a bunch not predisposed to euthanasia. I think the "high ground" thing was Obi Wan giving anakin a choice.