do jedi kill their prisoners

[edu11]

@jedipodo: No man, it wasn't. Bastilla's mission was to (lol) capture him.

 

@Darth Somethingorother: That's why the Jedi are fools! They underestimated the power of the dark side. You can't manipulate the master of manipulation!

 

The Jedi didn't erase his entire mind but they erased his personality! Is that ok with you? And about "showing him the light", they really didn't leave him much choice did they? I'd say they *blinded* him with the light.

I have a question for you: remember in K1 in Karath's ship when your identity is revealed? Were you pissed with the Jedi once you found out the truth? Or did you want to shake their hands? I was pissed as hell..

[Darth Somethingorother]

The Jedi didn't give a damn about Revan. They kept him alive to locate the Star Forge and they wiped his personality so that they could control him. But "the will of a sith lord is not so easily manipulated"... Tough luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did they wipe his/ her memory? Wasn't that done by what happened to Revan on his/ her flagship? And even so, did they manipulate him, or merely give him the chance to see the light? You seem quick to forget that Revan remembered much about his/ her past life, especially after KotOR, so how could the Council possibly have been sure he/ she wouldn't have remembered sooner... and tured back to the Dark Side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, if one wants Revan to remember the location of the Star Forge it wouldn't make sense to wipe his/her entire memory. Therefore it likely didn't happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So... they had no way of controlling Revan, as they didn't entirely wipe Revan's memory, so Revan could have gone back at any time (and if you paly the game such, this is exactly what happens). So were they manipulating him/ her, or giving Revan another chance?

 

@ edu 11; But the Jedi, as Kreia points out, didn't nescessarily wipe Revan's personality, merely strip away the corruption, allowing the true Revan to shine through again. The Council never "blinded him to the light" they never said "be light side, or else" basically, as was one of the selling points of the game, Revan still had the choice.

[The Elite_elite]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

[Darth Somethingorother]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

[The Elite_elite]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

[Darth Somethingorother]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's no reason to be rude, it wasn't exactly obvious from the wording of your post. As we say here in Liverpool, "iight, iight, calm down".

 

Revan and Vader were human. Human's make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. I'm saying that everyone has the right to a fair trial- a second chance. Don't you agree?

[edu11]

@Darth Somethingorother: This is getting nowhere. I say "wiped his personality", you say "strip away the corruption".

 

@The Elite_elite: They should have killed Revan because he was a threat to them. There was no mercy in letting him live and i don't see why he should be merciful as well.

[Darth Flatus]

The dark side is a corrupting force, vader was under its influence when he did all the naughty things. IN his case luke was able to "sense the good in him" so sparing vader was justified.

[Darth Somethingorother]

The dark side is a corrupting force, vader was under its influence when he did all the naughty things. IN his case luke was able to "sense the good in him" so sparing vader was justified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But we can't say that the council didn't sense good in Revan, because that hasn't been written yet. As for the Malak and Kavar scenario, I thought that (having been beating by a LS Revan) Malak showed signs of there "still being good in him". Fair point to you though.

[The Elite_elite]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan and Vader were human. Human's make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. I'm saying that everyone has the right to a fair trial- a second chance. Don't you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends how big the mistake is. Lets see, Vader wiped an entire form of life (Prince Xizor being the last to die), Revan. He/she decieves a clan to let him go into the temple and be able to use the Star Forge (and a second time if he/she becomes dark again). And also if dark again kills the wookie, Mision, and possibly Carth. (though seeing as how Carth isn't in TSL when you make Revan a dark male I guess he hunts him down and eventually kills him) I say those are some pretty big mistakes to let them go by without any kind of punishment. If you give them a second chance they should at least be harshly punished.

[Darth Somethingorother]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan and Vader were human. Human's make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. I'm saying that everyone has the right to a fair trial- a second chance. Don't you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends how big the mistake is. Lets see, Vader wiped an entire form of life (Prince Xizor being the last to die), Revan. He/she decieves a clan to let him go into the temple and be able to use the Star Forge (and a second time if he/she becomes dark again). And also if dark again kills the wookie, Mision, and possibly Carth. (though seeing as how Carth isn't in TSL when you make Revan a dark male I guess he hunts him down and eventually kills him) I say those are some pretty big mistakes to let them go by without any kind of punishment. If you give them a second chance they should at least be harshly punished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vader killed Xisor. The last of his kind, true... but did he wipe out the entire species single handedly? No. He finished one life. To counter that, he's saved Obi- Wan's countless times, as well as helping save Naboo, and the enslavememt and therefore possible extermination of two whole species (though i wouldn't have minded the gungans). Revan restored justice to Taris before he fell. He also saved the Galaxy from what could possibly have been a terrible suffering under the Madalorians. KotOR II hints that even his atrocities during the Jedi Civil War might even have ultimately been for a greater good. The Universe, contrary to GL, isn't black and white.

 

I agree that punishment should factor in, but isn't the punishment of knowing what you've done, and having to life with that enough, if you've been redeemed? "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

[The Elite_elite]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan and Vader were human. Human's make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. I'm saying that everyone has the right to a fair trial- a second chance. Don't you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends how big the mistake is. Lets see, Vader wiped an entire form of life (Prince Xizor being the last to die), Revan. He/she decieves a clan to let him go into the temple and be able to use the Star Forge (and a second time if he/she becomes dark again). And also if dark again kills the wookie, Mision, and possibly Carth. (though seeing as how Carth isn't in TSL when you make Revan a dark male I guess he hunts him down and eventually kills him) I say those are some pretty big mistakes to let them go by without any kind of punishment. If you give them a second chance they should at least be harshly punished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vader killed Xisor. The last of his kind, true... but did he wipe out the entire species single handedly? No. He finished one life.

Yes. Don't you remeber reading in SOTE how his species was killed because of expirements Vader was conducting on his homeworld?

 

  To counter that, he's saved Obi- Wan's countless times, as well as helping save Naboo, and the enslavememt and therefore possible extermination of two whole species (though i wouldn't have minded the gungans).

Yes, he did do all that.

  Revan restored justice to Taris before he fell.  He also saved the Galaxy from what could possibly have been a terrible suffering under the Madalorians.  KotOR II hints that even his atrocities during the Jedi Civil War might even have ultimately been for a greater good.  The Universe, contrary to GL, isn't black and white.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I believe that Revan (unlike the Jedi council) did a great good by going off in the Manalorian Wars. I don't see how bringing the galaxy into a civil war would help protect the Republic from the True Sith though. If anything, that would have weakened them, and made them easier prey for the True Sith.

 

BTW, I'm getting off for now so anything you say I won't see till later today.

[jotabe1789]

Actually, that Revan got his personality erased is the Sith point of view. That's what Malak says. Bastilla never said that they actually reprogrammed Revan's mind (having in account that in the game you can chose LS/DS, then they would have done a really poor job at it). She says that his brain damage after Malak's attack had been severe, and they had done their best to keep Revan alive.

 

So you can chose to believe Malak (the jedi deliberately erased Revan's mind and reprogrammed it, to use her to their benefit) or Bastila (the jedi did what they could to keep Revan alive, so they could find the StarForge, implying that they couldn't do anything to keep her from having his mind destroyed).

[Darth Somethingorother]

@ The elite_ elite; Then you haven't played the game as a female and considered the Disciple's cut-scenes.

 

Ok, so I've never read the Xisor story to the full, and was blagging slightly on that point (fair cop gov'), but it does say on the star wars data-bank page for Xisor, that is races obliteration was the unfortunate result of an accident.

 

Re the later thing; okies, i'll be a good sith and put down my saber :D

[dewaybe2678]

I can't believe you people. You guys are saying the Jedi were wrong to do that to Revan when Revan was a murdurer! The Jedi should have killed him/her for his/her's crimes! Tell me. If you were Luke and had the chance to kill Vader knowing everything he did (Causing the death of Xizor's kind, killed Obi-wan in cold blood, ext) would you kill him to justify those deaths? Or would you do like the idiotic Jedi and let him live? I don't know about you but I'd kill him knowing that he did so many wrong, evil things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You do know that Luke lets Vader live, right? Anyways; both Revan and Vader did a lot of good before they were turned to the Dark side, probably saved at least as many lives and species as they extinguished- should the good deeds count for nothing then? Wouldn't you agree that that's kinda.... darkside thinking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I know dumbass Luke lets him live. Yes, they may have done good but they should be punished for the evil they did. So, I guess from your thinking if someone murdered someone else and then saved another person's life that they shouldn't be punished in some way or form? (P.S. Remember, there is a very big difference between killing and murdering)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

some would say that the jedi are murders in a way to. they stood by in mandolorians wars as countless lives were lost.

[Hildegard]

some would say that the jedi are murders in a way to. they stood by in mandolorians wars as countless lives were lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then by your definition Switzerland or Sweden were murderers in WW2 in a way because they stood by as countless died.

Are then Americans responsable for deaths of people in WW2 in Europe until 08.12.1941 when they entered the war because they just stood by and watched how Hitler conquers Europe?

The council did nothing at the begging because they felt something was behind lurking behind the whole Mandalorian wars......and by some The True Sith started the war so the Republic and the core worlds would weaken and fall before they onslaught....

[Darth Flatus]

primarily the jedi are keepers of the peace not soldiers and in the mandie wars they were waiting for the true threat to reveal itself. In hindsight they probably should have sanctioned a jedi task force or something.

[dewaybe2678]

some would say that the jedi are murders in a way to. they stood by in mandolorians wars as countless lives were lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then by your definition Switzerland or Sweden were murderers in WW2 in a way because they stood by as countless died.

Are then Americans responsable for deaths of people in WW2 in Europe until 08.12.1941 when they entered the war because they just stood by and watched how Hitler conquers Europe?

The council did nothing at the begging because they felt something was behind lurking behind the whole Mandalorian wars......and by some The True Sith started the war so the Republic and the core worlds would weaken and fall before they onslaught....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i didn't mean it like i think they are murders. i'm going to touch that on sweden or switzerland i have a opinion on that but that for a off topic post.

[Cloris]

This is a good example for this "prisoner killing" issue.

In consequence of some opinions here Anakin would have acted like an ideal Jedi and Windu is the evil Sith...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. A brilliant manuver on Sidious's part, I thought. If, you know, you're into evil and all that, anyway...

 

*cough*

 

That's kind of what I was getting at here: a well-meaning Jedi vs. an unarmed bad guy. In the above example, Anakin does exactly the *right* thing, and that's what's so killer about it all.

 

Then you guys got into punishment vs. justice, and you lost me there. Punishment almost never equals justice, but we are led to believe that it does. Wow, it almost feels like an ethics classroom in here -- how did that happen?

 

some would say that the jedi are murders in a way to. they stood by in mandolorians wars as countless lives were lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Apathy is death..."

 

Cloris

[Darth Flatus]

anakin at that point is confused, in no way did he do the right thing especially given his reasons and intent. and palps was never unarmed, he lost his lightsaber but still had his command of the force

[Darth Somethingorother]

Anakin, I think, did the right thing in stopping Mace, but he did it in the wrong way, and for the wrong reasons.

[Darth Flatus]

how is it the right thing? its the lord of the sith you dont spare the lord of the sith!!

[Cloris]

anakin at that point is confused, in no way did he do the right thing especially given his reasons and intent. and palps was never unarmed, he lost his lightsaber but still had his command of the force

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, now I'm going to get downright spoiler-ish...

 

 

 

 

 

So, telling Windu that Palpatine should live and stand trial, and only striking at Windu when he continues his assault on his downed opponent WASN'T the right thing to do? I know that Windu had other info, and that he was working for the greater good, etc. However, from Anakin's point of view, Windu was not only violating the Code, but assassinating the boy's friend and patron.

 

A very tricky situation, I am interested in your reply.

 

Cloris

[metadigital]

One point i forgot to add, I would be in favour of kavar letting malak live so long as he cut off malak's saber hand and used a great deal of force drain on him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just another quick point -- my LS Revan gave Malak to chance to redeem himslef before the big battle.

 

But we are really talking about ethical combat -- as in chivalry. I am aware FSs don't ordinarily lose control of the lightsabers (well, Bastilla did in KotOR1 ) it was just a thought experiment.

 

Theoretically, the honourably Jedi should give the worthy oponent the opportunity to defend themselves with their weapon.

 

Theoretically, LS Jedi should not kill everyone they oppose. A quick stasis and disarm/disable them then send them off for "re-education".

 

Mortal combat should result in DS points. Otherwise Paladins are no more lawful than Rangers or Blackguards.

[Darth Flatus]

So, telling Windu that Palpatine should live and stand trial, and only striking at Windu when he continues his assault on his downed opponent WASN'T the right thing to do? I know that Windu had other info, and that he was working for the greater good, etc. However, from Anakin's point of view, Windu was not only violating the Code, but assassinating the boy's friend and patron.

 

A very tricky situation, I am interested in your reply.

 

Cloris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

oh if you are talking about what is right from people's point of view then yes annie was totally right.

But he didnt have the full facts and i'm not even sure how much the dark side was influencing him at that point. I doubt he protested due to their being a lack of justice he protested because he saw palps as the only way to prevent his worst nightmare from coming true.