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Volo (and others) got the CF answer (JE spoilers )


Kalfear

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So after our discussion yesterday I posted a question to Bioware in the Spoiler Forums for a designer to answer about it.

 

Here is my question, their reply, my reply. this should end the discussion regarding it :blink:

 

LOL, for those not intested in reading it all. CF is just your run of the mill evil found in most RPGs. The whole thing with Smiling Mountain and description of CF isnt actually how it works in game.

 

Im trying to play through as a CF character. NOT an evil but as per the explanation of the principle outlined by Smiling Mountain regarding Closed Fist.

 

But to be frank Im getting VERY fustrated with what I see as a lack of continuity regarding the disapline. So hopeing you can explain this to me.

 

The way I understand CF is basically you dont give out charity, you demand people help themselves (with in reason). What it doesnt mean is you need to be rude, crude, or resort to basic thuggery actions.

 

Yet to be honest, Im finding to gain CF points you actually have to be rude, crude, and resort to thuggery actions in game.

 

Some examples for you,

 

a) Man on beach of Two Rivers that owes Gao the Greater money. If you give him money you get a OP gain (thats fine), yet if you refuse to give him money and tell him to stop standing around and solve his own problem you dont gain CF standing. Yet getting someone to solve their own problem is the EXACT meaning of CF from the way its explained!

 

b) Guard at gate to marsh. If you tell him to do better you gain no CF. However if you EXTORT silver from him you do gain CF standing. What does extorting silver have to do with CF? Thats an evil act , formed on greed and exploitation of the weak. Where in the CF discription does it say exploiting those weaker then you is apart of the CF path? Thats part of the Evil Path.

 

c) The Dam. If you choose to leave Dam open and collect the money from the wine merchant you get CF gain. If you close dam you get OP gain. Where in the discription of CF is doing deeds for financial gain? Leaving the Dam open is Evil, pure and simple. Your intentionally hurting the town who has fallen victim to a force that is much more powerful then they are! (remember Smiling Mountain did say if that same person saw a man being beaten by multiple opponents he might step in). This is exactly that case. Comparing the Lotus Assassins to the peasents and merchants of the town is about as clear an imbalance as one could find. Yet to raise your CF you must do the Evil act.

 

To go even Deeping into topic, The Lotus assassins have kidnaped your master, burnt your home to the ground, killed everyone (but 1) you grew up with and knew, and destroyed you heritage (People of Dirge). Killing all the Lotus assassins and then closeing the Dam to send a clear message to their masters you are not afraid and are stronger then them is VERY CF'ish. Yet you cant.

 

d) Arena vrs Ravenger. Black Whirlwind requests to fight in your place. CF respects Strenght and dealing with ones own problems. You KNOW Black Whirlwind has a history regarding this matter and is know asking you for the right to settled it on his own. To gain CF you must deny that request (and throw in some insults at BW to boot). Yet again, according to what was said about CF, you should more then respect BW for wanting to do this.

 

So my question is this. Can I actually play this game according to the foundation set forth at the start regarding CF or do I have to become a mindless evil Zombie thug to play the game as CF? The way Smiling Mountain set it out sounded rather interesting, playing an idiot evil (standard RPG Evil) doesnt (its just to boring and unimaginative to be honest. Stupid acts take no brain power or ability to do, playing a smart evil does).

 

Please let me know about this as Im getting really fustrated with trying to play the game as its explained and coming up short each time only to find out (after saving before encounter and reloading) that if I just insult, extort, and act the idiot I advance.

 

It's hard to be self-serving without hurting somebody else in the process. All things must balance out in the end.

_________________

Cinematic Designer

Jade Empire

 

Lead Cinematic Designer

Dragon Age

 

But thats the point James, by the very discription in game that you supply, CF is NOT self serving. They beleive in having reasoning to each action. Not strictly evil intent either.

 

Back to Smiling Mountain, saveing the person being beaten by 2 people (in his example) demonstrates right there EVIL is NOT a traight for CF. The reasoning of should this person be able to REASONABLY defend themselves. So you would ignore if it was one on one but you would interject if the odds were uneven. That right there tells us there is no evil intent or drive in the choices a CF should make.

 

Going back to the Dam (sorry but this one REALLY bugs me as its so obvious). Since there is no reasonable expectation that the town could stand up to trained ELITE assassins Like the Lotus Assassins, (and the fact you hate the assassins and there masters) you should be able to close the Dam because the REASONING is there to do so.

 

But anyways, your answer (or lack there of) tells me what I needed to know. Its impossible to actually play the game as CF defined in the game. Basically non brain evil acts (which is damn boring I must say) to go that route.

 

Thats a real shame 

 

You guys had a great idea for a system (as you detailed it in game), honestly do wish you had stuck to it. Would have been a huge step forward in RPGs IMO.

 

Welp back to clicking on stupid statements and bullying peasents to acheive the CF route of game!

 

*just robbed that peasent woman outside Teashop!*

*flexes*

FEAR MY EVIL ACTS!!!!!

ya right!

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I'd like to give an actual enlightning response, but the only thing I can muster is the obvious: regardless of what they say, it's still typical Biowarish good and evil, which just means its as simplified as ever. It's a shame that they make the effort of separating the styles of responses in the game, but then undermine it by giving blatantly obnoxious choices to the player.

 

"Smart evil" for Bioware is asking for money in advance.

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I'd like to give an actual enlightning response, but the only thing I can muster is the obvious: regardless of what they say, it's still typical Biowarish good and evil, which just means its as simplified as ever. It's a shame that they make the effort of separating the styles of responses in the game, but then undermine it by giving blatantly obnoxious choices to the player.

 

"Smart evil" for Bioware is asking for money in advance.

 

LOL, someone else posted basically that on BW forums almost immediately after the Dev responded!

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While, amny times it does come down to that. There are example, as has been shared, that it isn't. Really, it's no different than in other games. Even the Fo series had examples of 'greedy evil'. To try to paint BIO as the only ones who do that is just silly. JE is still a lot closer to doing right comapred to most games save the FO series and Ultima. And, it sure crushes Kalfear's overrated KOTOR series in this issue. :blink:

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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While, amny times it does come down to that. There are example, as has been shared, that it isn't. Really, it's no different than in other games. Even the Fo series had examples of 'greedy evil'. To try to paint BIO as the only ones who do that is just silly. JE is still a lot closer to doing right comapred to most games save the FO series and Ultima. And, it sure crushes Kalfear's overrated KOTOR series in this issue. :blink:

 

Oh Im not saying Bioware the only one that does it. Im saying I expected something more when they took the time to describe this system in game.

 

Just we were debateing it here so I went to the source for a answer on topic (as we could have debated for weeks and never really agreed. Now there can be no doubt on topic) hehe

 

And actually Volo, Kreia was a great evil in KotOR2. She was what PC evils should be, yes I know she wasnt a PC, but she is what all companies should be striving for in the evil game. An INTELLEGENT evil. Someone who realizes kicking and stealing from everyone isnt always to your advantage.

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She wasn't intelligent evil. She was stupid, obvious evil. Very poor example. I cna think of many examples of evil that are intelligent. Kreia isn't one of them. very, ver poor exmaple.

 

The Master from FO, TNO's Alterego from PST, Master Li from JE, and others are examples of intelligent evil. Kreia is not one of them. Not even close. For someone who who seems to be on some sort of crusade on this issue; you chose a very poor example. :(

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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She wasn't intelligent evil. She was stupid, obvious evil. Very poor example.  I cna think of many examples of evil that are intelligent. Kreia isn't one of them. very, ver poor exmaple.

 

The Master from FO, TNO's Alterego from PST, Master Li from JE, and others are examples of intelligent evil. Kreia is not one of them. Not even close. For someone who who seems to be on some sort of crusade on this issue; you chose a very poor example. :(

 

ROFL Volo, you CANT name KotOR and then go outside the parameter you named!

 

I can name a million evils better then Kreia as well. But she was still a good example of a thinking evil. Not a typical thuggish bully evil so common place to RPGs.

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"ROFL Volo, you CANT name KotOR and then go outside the parameter you named!"

 

Hahahah. Why would I name a non existent intelligent evil character from the KOTOR seires when I'm trying to prove its not at JE's level. I have to go outside the KOTOR series for that.

 

 

"I can name a million evils better then Kreia as well. But she was still a good example of a thinking evil. Not a typical thuggish bully evil so common place to RPGs."

 

She very much is the example of a typical bully evil.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"Really? Please expand on that statement!"

 

I have many times. Anyone who has played the game knows that while some parts of her are intelligent; overall she is nothing but a typical bull evil. Just listen to her tlaking with your other npcs. All bullying type tatics.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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