Dual wield or Double Bladed?

[simply yellow]

I know this topic probably had been done before (and before) but I'd be interested to hear some thoughts, compare the damage of each. What do you prefer?

 

I dual weilding at the moment to get the stats bonus on strength from two different crystals...but I dont' like it as much..there's something degrading about it. The lightsaber is supposed to represent each jedis individual identity - but what if you've got two? - are they then just a couple pf glow sticks to hit people with?.

[Darth Frog]

Before too many different posts appear you should clarify the thrust of your question, whether you are more interested in the combat properties of sabres within the game, or whether you want to focus on aesthetic/role-playing aspects.

 

Combat properties: double-bladed lightsabres are two-handed weapons, meaning the STR damage bonus for main hand attacks is multiplied by 1.5; they also have higher base damage than 'singles'. Around level 30 this means 10..15 more damage per main hand attack, depending on your stats. Normal single-bladed lightsabres have double the critical range (19-20 vs. 20-20 for double-bladers), meaning they are the way to go if you are aiming for damage via critical hits.

 

If you dual-wield normal sabres then you need crystals and upgrades for each sabre while you need only one set for the double-blader. In this regard dual-wielding can be an advantage, because you can switch to different buff sabres in the off-hand while still keeping your main sabre with the pet crystal in the main hand. Conversely, a high-damage crystal like the Barab Ore Ingot in a double-bladed sabre works on both main hand and off hand and you are unlikely to find more than one such crystal. However, the off hand does not contribute a whole lot to overall damage (at most one attack per round) and so it is not terribly important.

 

So, have your pick. Stat/defense buffing: dual-wield normal sabres. Critical hits: dual-wield keened normal sabres. Highest damage output w/o criticals: double-bladed sabre.

 

I tend to prefer the latter.

[simply yellow]

Before too many different posts appear you should clarify the thrust of your question, whether you are more interested in the combat properties of sabres within the game, or whether you want to focus on aesthetic/role-playing aspects.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

ah, the second one mostly, thanks for the damage info, so the double bladed does consistently more damage... might forgo an extra +2 str bonus and go back this...

[LadyCrimson]

In an average non-super-power-gaming game (ie not re-loading so you're pumped full of all the best crystals and items) I haven't noticed that big a difference damage-wise between double-blade and dual-weilding 2 singles (using Flurry/Critical Strike/Power). I started watching the combat detail info and eh...

 

Not enough to make a vital difference in this game, unless you're using some mod that increases difficulty to a point where it would matter.

 

Appearance-wise, I prefer the two singles. The attack animations are much prettier overall - although there's one instance where the double-blade is prettier (one of the power-jump moves they do).

 

Role-playing wise - eh - if I was a Light jedi trying to prevent the end of the galaxy, I'd take any edge I could to help that means. I'd give each of my sabers a name, probably, and they'd both become part of my sense of self-identity.

If I was a Dark Jedi, I wouldn't be concerned with whether or not 'more power' was degrading to some symbolic principle.

 

But that's just twisted little me.

[simply yellow]

Role-playing wise - eh - if I was a Light jedi trying to prevent the end of the galaxy, I'd take any edge I could to help that means. I'd give each of my sabers a name, probably, and they'd both become part of my sense of self-identity. 

If I was a Dark Jedi, I wouldn't be concerned with whether or not 'more power' was degrading to some symbolic principle. 

 

But that's just twisted little me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

maybe it relates to the whole phallic thing though, ie THIS is MY lightsaber, THIS is the symbol of my power.

 

Dual weild is a bit like "yeah I picked these two of the ground as I went" or '"yeah I got a 2 for 1 deal at the local weapon shop". How could you effectively fight with one in each hand anyway?, I bet a skilled duelest with a single blade or a staff could own someone trying to coordinate w a weapon in each hand. Your also likely to have less foce behind each strike.

[Baley]

(w00t) 2 blades are very good(lightsaber + short lightsaber)

You could build one for atack and one for defence,you get enough great crystals for 2 blades

[LadyCrimson]

I'm no dueling expert, so I have no idea about reality - but certainly in a lot of fiction/fantasy, there's some kind of....'pumping up' of the dual-weapon fighter - the skill and training involved, the agility, the focus required to be superb. Like, say, Drizzt the dark elf.

 

So I'd imagine that mythos is part of why so many like dual-wielding in games.

 

As to the phallic symbolism (or any 'power/strength' symbolism, really) - I think there's just that psychological thing, y'know, that more is better. Or something.

[metadigital]

I'm no dueling expert, so I have no idea about reality - but certainly in a lot of fiction/fantasy, there's some kind of....'pumping up' of the dual-weapon fighter - the skill and training involved, the agility, the focus required to be superb. Like, say, Drizzt the dark elf.

 

So I'd imagine that mythos is part of why so many like dual-wielding in games.

 

As to the phallic symbolism (or any 'power/strength' symbolism, really) - I think there's just that psychological thing, y'know, that more is better.  Or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Y'mean you don't have lightsaber envy?

 

I think the single lightsaber is still under-valued as a defence posture. Dual weilding, or a double blade, are increasing the complexity of the battle. You certainly have more resources to attack with, and defend with, but now the administration of these resources demands your focus be divided. I think that should have a bigger impact on defence than is currently represented in the game. (What's that? Do I hear females in the audience bursting to make some comment about multi-tasking?)

 

The model seems to hold true for WeaponMasters, though, as the advanced duel-weilding feats approach but never quite get to main-and-off-hand-with-no-penalty.

 

... Except that the bonus due to PC level swamps the actual combat so as to make the entire argument moot once your avatar passes double figures in level.

[Althanis]

In the equip screen, which one (left or right) is the main hand and which is the off hand?

[metadigital]

In the equip screen, which one (left or right) is the main hand and which is the off hand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When you put the first weapon in either hand it will register as the main hand. (Right side.) then just put your off-hand waepon in the other hand.

[Darth Frog]

The model seems to hold true for WeaponMasters, though, as the advanced duel-weilding feats approach but never quite get to main-and-off-hand-with-no-penalty.

 

... Except that the bonus due to PC level swamps the actual combat so as to make the entire argument moot once your avatar passes double figures in level.

 

Same with Force DC. Both BAB and Force DC increase 1 per level, even more if you take into account boni from attribute mods, feats and items/upgrades. Defense and saving throws increase at a much more sedate pace, which is why only turtle builds have enough defense to matter during the later parts of the game.

 

The prestige class feats that boost attack bonus - either directly or by decreasing AB penalties - are utterly useless because by the time you get access to those feats you have plenty AB already. And the gap only widens as you progress.

 

The standard Master Two-Weapon Fighting feat already reduces the penalty to -2/-2. Using a balanced weapon in the off-hand (or a double-blader) reduces this to 0/-2, and doing so can be advisable during the earliest parts of the game (Peragus, Citadel) and for the final sparring round against the five Handmaidens. But by the time you get your mitts on a short lightsabre you likely won't need the minuscule AB boost anymore or at least you won't need it much longer. Unless you are playing a non-melee character, of course.

 

Last but not least, with a careful selection of crystals and upgrades an off-hand buff sabre can more than compensate the loss of 3 defense compared to wielding a single sabre with Master Duelling. So even turtle builds can profit from dual-wielding and it is hard to see any character single-wielding in the later parts of the game, except for purely aesthetic reasons.

[metadigital]

The model seems to hold true for WeaponMasters, though, as the advanced duel-weilding feats approach but never quite get to main-and-off-hand-with-no-penalty.

 

... Except that the bonus due to PC level swamps the actual combat so as to make the entire argument moot once your avatar passes double figures in level.

 

Same with Force DC. Both BAB and Force DC increase 1 per level, even more if you take into account boni from attribute mods, feats and items/upgrades. Defense and saving throws increase at a much more sedate pace, which is why only turtle builds have enough defense to matter during the later parts of the game.

 

The prestige class feats that boost attack bonus - either directly or by decreasing AB penalties - are utterly useless because by the time you get access to those feats you have plenty AB already. And the gap only widens as you progress.

 

The standard Master Two-Weapon Fighting feat already reduces the penalty to -2/-2. Using a balanced weapon in the off-hand (or a double-blader) reduces this to 0/-2, and doing so can be advisable during the earliest parts of the game (Peragus, Citadel) and for the final sparring round against the five Handmaidens. But by the time you get your mitts on a short lightsabre you likely won't need the minuscule AB boost anymore or at least you won't need it much longer. Unless you are playing a non-melee character, of course.

 

Last but not least, with a careful selection of crystals and upgrades an off-hand buff sabre can more than compensate the loss of 3 defense compared to wielding a single sabre with Master Duelling. So even turtle builds can profit from dual-wielding and it is hard to see any character single-wielding in the later parts of the game, except for purely aesthetic reasons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... Call me an aesthete ...

[psycho_leo]

I'd give each of my sabers a name, probably, and they'd both become part of my sense of self-identity. 

 

Like what? Twinkle and Icing Death? Drizzt rules! (w00t)

[Dranoel]

Personally in KoTOR I always used to wield two weapons - a gay arsed light stick and one of the poisoned blades I think it was from one of the tombs on Korriban. Unfortunately KoTOR2 doesn't really have any blades comparable to a gay arsed light stick (at least I haven't found 1 yet ) so I end up with a two handed one - the decent crystals are always in short supply unless you cheat.

[Darth Frog]

Hehe, in KotOR the most powerful combo was a Baragwin Assault Blade (a vibro) in the main hand and some glowstick or other in the off-hand for Force Jump.

 

But I just found out something nice that is good news for aesthetes like our Lady Crimson: it seems that game treats a single lightsabre as a two-handed weapon unless you dual-wield, meaning that the two-handed stance with a single sabre is not merely a visualization but actually reflected in the game logic. That is, you do get the 1.5 multiplier for the STR damage bonus. I am sure Saberist (a.k.a. VotF) would very much approve.

 

For a high-STR character the difference between single-wielding and dual-wielding is fairly marginal. Assuming a STR mod of 20 and thus +10 extra damage per main hand attack, and further assuming five main hand attacks per round (Master Flurry + Master Speed + Juyo) we get +50 extra damage per round for the two-handed stance with a single sabre, vs. roughly 50 per round that an off-hand sabre would do. So it is pretty much a wash, unless you have Master Duelling and your Exile is a turtle build, in which case the +3 defense can make a difference (if your buff sabre does not give you at least as much). But a turtle build wouldn't have that kind of STR to begin with, so a turtle would probably opt to dual-wield in order to get both more damage and more buffs.

 

Of course, with a double-bladed sabre you get the extra damage in addition to the off-hand attack and the higher base damage of the double-bladed sabre. Now, if only there were a couple more Zakkegs, Drexls, Greater Storm Beasts, and Sions, plus a smattering of Rancors peppered with Malaks ... :D

[Spooky]

Like the man said, all of these numbers are all well and good, but there ain't anything in this game that can take too much punishement, so why bother.

 

And if training your entire carreer to be an expert fighter just so the final battle, the one that might still pose a challenge, will no longer pose one is somewhat senseless. I find the information in this thread most illuminating though.

[Darth Frog]

And if training your entire carreer to be an expert fighter just so the final battle, the one that might still pose a challenge, will no longer pose one is somewhat senseless.  I find the information in this thread most illuminating though.

 

The only challenge in the game is the final sparring round against the five Handmaidens; the first planet may offer a few interesting situations but even those are challenging only in the sense that you die if you do something stupid rather than that you have to play well to win.

 

That leaves basically two options.

 

Option 1, treat combat the same as walking from A to B, something that has to be done in order to get to the next step of your point-and-click adventure. This turns combat into an unsatisfying, mindless chore, and since there is no real incentive to play well there is no reason to fool around with attributes, feats, powers, items, upgrades, stances (forms) and combat tactics, except in an absent-minded, lets-see-if-this-looks-cool fashion.

 

Option 2, replace the non-existent death penalty for playing poorly with your own judgement. One aspect of this can be to impose some rules, to limit your power without limiting your choices to the point where there are no more interesting choices to be made (that's why gimping your character by using auto-levelling isn't a whole lot of fun, and it isn't very effective anyway). In KotOR this worked extremely well, it became nicely challenging if you went solo and avoided the use of 'consumables' like medpacks, stims, shields and explosives. Another aspect is to treat fights as if they were difficult and evaluate your performance critically. For example, a melee fighter should be able take out any enemy in a single combat round, with the exception of some mini-bosses and other toughies where two rounds are allowable (three for Kreia with her 1000+ VP, and Horn Kath Hounds if you go to Dantooine early). If this doesn't happen and it was not due to an automatic miss then you have not played well; past level 15 or so even a single automatic miss per combat round should not break your stride. Another thing to watch is VP which should not drop noticably unless tanking was part of the battle plan.

 

So, by creating your own measure of success and failure you get an incentive to play well, despite the fact that the game itself lets you muddle through even if you do stupid things with a badly botched build.

 

Also, some situations lend themselves naturally to inventing your own minigames. For example, in the Shyrack Cave on Korriban the beasties will start killing each other as soon as you enter. But since you paid for the game and they didn't, it is only fair that you should bag all the kills, right? It is doable but it is not easy. Which is just as it should be. :D