Your view on Politics

[SteveThaiBinh]

I don't think I like that idea.  Not everyone is adaptable to the military way of doing things.  Frankly, it might do more harm than good.  I myself was in the US Navy and I nearly got a Section 8 because the place was making me bonkers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you are a six-foot invisible rabbit, after all. It must have been hard to fit in, and literally to fit through some of the doors.

[213374U]

You underestimate the extent of US influence and power.  I accept that much, perhaps most, of the poverty we see today is not the fault of the US directly.  But I can give you lots of cases where US policy has made matters worse, if you like.

I know. In fact most of the regimes in South America now are the result of decades of manipulation and scheming on the US' part. Therefore, their status now is the direct handiwork of the US.

 

But in time, it's just another empire that will decline. The signs are showing already. And in time, those countries will mature and develop as a society and grow strong enough to stop being mere pawns. Or perhaps they won't. But then, it will be because of their own complacency. It will be their fault, without excuses.

 

 

I appreciate the validity of your argument, but as you're making it on grounds of efficiency and effectiveness, and I'm making mine from an ethical point of view, we're unlikely to agree.

I am just glad that they aren't philosophers running the world.

 

*edited for quotes.

[WITHTEETH]

"I think politics and philosophy in these times are important to mix.

Now, politics, itself, is one of the many fields of philosophical inquiry, but only in the context of speculations on the ideal society as opposed to society as manifested. But most politics are pragmatic politics and those are in no way ideal, nor, I believe, can they ever be ideal. The goal is to approach the ideal as closely as possible.

 

For those of us seriously engaged in Historical analysis and/or criticism, philosophical analysis and/or criticism, and speculations into all the many divers fields of Metaphysical inquiry. Pragmatic politics are important only in the way that they impact on our ability not simply to speculate and hypothesize because politics cannot impact much on private meditations. But they are important in relation to our being able to share our thoughts with others publically. When speculative thought becomes secretive it is a sign of a degenerated society." -- Alexi Urrivksi

[Rosbjerg]

For those of us seriously engaged in Historical analysis and/or criticism, philosophical analysis and/or criticism, and speculations into all the many divers fields of Metaphysical inquiry. Pragmatic politics are important only in the way that they impact on our ability not simply to speculate and hypothesize because politics cannot impact much on private meditations. But they are important in relation to our being able to share our thoughts with others publically. When speculative thought becomes secretive it is a sign of a degenerated society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

nicely copied .. unless you wrote that of course? http://www.parascience.org/PoliticsandPhil...eyreallymix.htm

 

remember to quote next time!

[213374U]

LOL

[Meshugger]

For starters, there are no "second-grade" citizens. And you know well that a measure that causes social discomfort doesn't strengthen society, more like the opposite. Patriotism isn't something you can or should force on people, it's a character trait. You are ultimately proposing that everyone is forced to risk their life for something they might not believe in. It would be no different if the Church was allowed to draft people to conduct holy wars.

 

That wasn't my point. With a mandatory draft, patriotism willl fade away, since no has the greater "honor" than the other. In a society where people are rewarded as heroes for joining the army, will sooner or later evolve into a classbased society in terms of nationalism and patriotism.

 

Sorry, that's just too utopic. Military actions are an essential part of any power's policy. Without them, said country would eventually crumble, as a power at least. And if you don't know what the consequences of that are, there are plenty of History books which illustrate it quite nicely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said that military action will be avoided, the point was that the goverment will think have more at stake when there's a draft. This only works ofcourse if the goverment is democratic, otherwise it's redundant.

[WITHTEETH]

Quick Ros! but i didn't feel the need since nobody knows the genius. hes Alexi Ubriski i think it is. thanks for keeping me on my toes! i beleive it so i take it as my own any way :D

 

Edit: Went back and edited it

[Rosbjerg]

next time remember to add some mistakes .. it was too perfect (for the short amount of time you used to write it) so I suspected foul play! (takes one to know one I guess! hehe )

[WITHTEETH]

next time remember to add some mistakes .. it was too perfect (for the short amount of time you used to write it) so I suspected foul play! (takes one to know one I guess! hehe )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

most importantly, was it informative? thats all i care about.

[Rosbjerg]

"I think politics and philosophy in these times are important to mix.

Now, politics, itself, is one of the many fields of philosophical inquiry, but only in the context of speculations on the ideal society as opposed to society as manifested. But most politics are pragmatic politics and those are in no way ideal, nor, I believe, can they ever be ideal. The goal is to approach the ideal as closely as possible.

 

For those of us seriously engaged in Historical analysis and/or criticism, philosophical analysis and/or criticism, and speculations into all the many divers fields of Metaphysical inquiry. Pragmatic politics are important only in the way that they impact on our ability not simply to speculate and hypothesize because politics cannot impact much on private meditations. But they are important in relation to our being able to share our thoughts with others publically. When speculative thought becomes secretive it is a sign of a degenerated society." -- Alexi Urrivksi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

very informative .. and he raises some good points!

as I understand it he says that it's important for a society to approach "it's" idea of an ideal state .. and never stop striving for it, even though it will never be achieved .. hence the mix if philosophy and politics.. and that such should be discussed openly and not in secret!

[WITHTEETH]

Whenever i try to discuss it outloud the other person starts to yell, hypoerventillate or atleast turns red

[Rosbjerg]

why so? it's what democracy is all about .. pretty simple ..

[WITHTEETH]

why so? it's what democracy is all about .. pretty simple ..

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Its because they are christian republicans.

[Rosbjerg]

why so? it's what democracy is all about .. pretty simple ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its because they are christian republicans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you must be intentionally trying to piss them off then .. since the 'formula' can be applied to any society ..

[WITHTEETH]

No not at all. i just mention abortion, welfare, Social security, Healthcare, minumum wage, enviroment, anti war, anti bush and that pretty much pushes them off the cliff stark raging mad.

[Rosbjerg]

yes .. wonder why?

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

I am for "No Choice" on the matter of abortion. Let me explain. I am a man. Abortion is a woman's issue. As a man, I have no right to dictate what a woman does with her body. I have "No Choice" in the matter. Let the Women deal with it.

[ErictheFallenJedi]

Couldn't agree more.

[B5C]

I am for "No Choice" on the matter of abortion.  Let me explain.  I am a man.  Abortion is a woman's issue.  As a man, I have no right to dictate what a woman does with her body.  I have "No Choice" in the matter.  Let the Women deal with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What if it was your kid?

[1eyedParrot]

That is technically incorrect. An egg can only be fertilized by sperm, so the man has biological rights to the baby as much as the woman.

[213374U]

That wasn't my point. With a mandatory draft, patriotism willl fade away, since no has the greater "honor" than the other. In a society where people are rewarded as heroes for joining the army, will sooner or later evolve into a classbased society in terms of nationalism and patriotism. 

Again, you fail to explain why one should serve their country if they don't want to. Not that I am a very strong supporter of personal freedom above anything else, but I have the impression you are.

And if patriotism was indeed to fade away as you point (not that's bloody likely), it would just increase the discomfort caused by drafting since it would remove the only reason to willingly join the army.

 

And sorry, but you also seem to fail to grasp the concept of "class". Since the army is an open place and anybody can join, anyone can reach that "upper class", which means it's not a class anymore. Therefore, it's a much easier way of gaining social prestige than making a fortune, as things are. Riskier, but easier nonetheless.

 

The idea that everyone should get the same "rights" and advantages just because they exist is not only unfair, it's idiotic. Equality is a fallacy. Trying to enforce it artificially is a wasted effort, and a dangerous thing to try for society since it kills the possibility of selfish personal advancement. And that has ultimately been the reason for human advancement since the dawn of time.

 

 

I never said that military action will be avoided, the point was that the goverment will think have more at stake when there's a draft. This only works ofcourse if the goverment is democratic, otherwise it's redundant.

Thus making military action only acceptable in terms of self-defense. That would indeed be ideal, but it just doesn't work that way. No empire has ever maintained itself just by exercising "self-defense", and no one ever will. I am discussing the real world here, not ideals.

 

 

very informative .. and he raises some good points!

as I understand it he says that it's important for a society to approach "it's" idea of an ideal state .. and never stop striving for it, even though it will never be achieved .. hence the mix if philosophy and politics.. and that such should be discussed openly and not in secret!

That's a contradiction, I think. One should try and strive for perfection despite knowing that one will never achieve it? Where do you stop? Or do you stop at nothing and perfection becomes an obsession? Setting an impossible goal kinda defeats the whole purpose of trying.

 

And since perfection is such an undefined thing, how do you temper that idea with pragmatism? How much is one supposed to be willing to sacrifice for that idea?

 

No, I don't think I agree with that (not your interpretation, the paragraph itself). I believe in dealing with the problems you have today. That's what (supposedly!) politicians do. Let them philosophers try to define and achieve perfection.

 

 

I am for "No Choice" on the matter of abortion.  Let me explain.  I am a man.  Abortion is a woman's issue.  As a man, I have no right to dictate what a woman does with her body.  I have "No Choice" in the matter.  Let the Women deal with it.

A rather short-sighted thing to say. If the child was yours, it's of no consequence who bears it, since it's 50% your responsibility in case it's born. I think you should have a say in the matter.

[Lucius]

I cringe whenever you guys write 'patriotism' as something honorable, here I've never heard anyone call himself patriot, not even when I was in the army, patriots leans dangerously close to NeoNazies here, I think.

 

When I was in the army, I met people from all different kinds of social groups, richy rich guys, worker sons, middle class guys, professions ranging from blacksmiths, high school graduates, elementary school dropouts you name it. For me it was a good experience, there are definately a lot of these guys I wouldn't have met otherwise, and I think it's a good way of mixing up the army with various personalities, so you don't just get the uneducated. (no offence)

 

Oh and her body, her choice. If you value your sperm so much, then perhaps you should keep it to yourself next time.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I cringe whenever you guys write 'patriotism' as something honorable, here I've never heard anyone call himself patriot, not even when I was in the army, patriots leans dangerously close to NeoNazies here, I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true in the UK as well, and the product of European history. Since the Second World War we've all been enouraged to suppress or to moderate our nationalism, given the amount of damage it's done.

 

I've seen documentaries from the US showing houses with the US flag on a pole in the garden, and they have a family ceremony twice a day to raise or lower it. Of course, they're perfectly normal, decent people in the context of the US. But if you did that in the UK, everyone would think you were either insane or a fascist.

 

Unfortunately, US nationalism and patriotism is getting out of hand, and some Americans seem to have an unrealistically idealised vision of their own country. Look at what happened in Iraq. The US government assumed that it would be able to bring peace and stability easily, with hardly any troops on the ground. Sure, the UN had got into a mess every time it tried to do peace-keeping, but that's because it's the corrupt and incompetent UN; American soldiers will be able to work miracles simply by virtue of being American. It just didn't turn out that way.

 

I was talking to an American friend a few weeks ago about civics education, which has just been introduced here in the UK. For us, it's quite internationalist in outlook, with lots of information about links with the developing world and Europe and the fight against poverty. My friend said that they have civics education in the US, but it's mostly about how great the US is.

[Lucius]

I can't add much more to this, only that I agree completely.

[213374U]

I cringe whenever you guys write 'patriotism' as something honorable, here I've never heard anyone call himself patriot, not even when I was in the army, patriots leans dangerously close to NeoNazies here, I think.

And I cringe when you guys compare the feeling of love for your History, your culture, your customs and the people that are part of it, to neonazism. Do you consider all muslims suicide bombers, too?

 

 

Oh and her body, her choice. If you value your sperm so much, then perhaps you should keep it to yourself next time.

Fine by me. Only I wash my hands if she decides to have it. It was her choice.

 

And no, I don't value my sperm quite so much. I sell it, after all.