Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[metadigital]

...after 20+ years of telling us The Force was just a cosmic ether that could be tapped into by FSs and manipulated like clay on a potters wheel...

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Rationally, this and nothing more is known of the nature of the force. Force users in the Star Wars universe can observe and record these effects, and they are as 'real' as anything else your philosophical/ontological position allows you to accept.

 

now we are told that the clay has a will of its own! (Deus ex argilla    )

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As it seems this cannot be proven or disproven, it's just her belief, founded on faith. She ought to have started a church. But I don't see how it could ever be more than one among many competing interpretations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, no philosophical tenets can be proved in an absolute manner, all of philosophical debate is subjective and prone to interpretation and re-interpretation. I was more interested in the ramifications of the philosophy: if we are just stuck to our fate or if in fact "There is no fate but what we make".

 

Of course it is entirely possible that the multiiverse is made up of an infinite series of universes where every possible action's consequence is played out in full, until the end of time. So then both suppositions would indeed be true, simultaneously! :D

 

But we still have God appearing for the first time in the SW universe ...

[AlanC9]

The Force doesn't have to have a "will" of its own to shape behavior. Our DNA doesn't have a will, but it certainly does structure our minds.

[metadigital]

The Force doesn't have to have a "will" of its own to shape behavior. Our DNA doesn't have a will, but it certainly does structure our minds.

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Agreed, but irrelevant. I'm interested in the reverse idea: that The Force shapes the universe to its will.

 

So more like the Gaia Hypothesis than the Selfish Gene: i.e. the Earth is controlling us humans and our toxic technology, and together the planet is a living being.

[The Great Phantom]

Try not to compare SW to modern theologies, etc... I tried, and had a MASSIVE headache the next day or so... There's no SINGLE spelled out theology that it's based on, like the Matrix. It all depends on what the current story-writers thought would make a cool story, or, in Kotor II's case, spin the 'lesser' of the species' heads and get them all discombobulated (sp?).

 

The Force is Nature. It shapes things naturally, and would live in harmony if we humans didn't come and screw everything over. The Force is not equatable to any pantheon, both ancient and modern. People don't have to pray to it to use it. And don't say isn't meditation praying? Caus it's not. The Jedi and Sith meditate to focus on various emotions to give them strength in the current situation (Jedi: Peace, Tranquility aka Neutrality ; Sith: Anger, Hate, Sadness, Fear, etc.).

[The Great Phantom]

That is COOL! I added the post to the other thread to see what would happen, and when I come here, it's already updated! :ph34r:

 

Okay, I feel better now.

[Darth Credulous]

Here's a conjecture; the Force is not the death of Free Will. Although it might guide your life to a specific point, even a series of specific points, the choice of what to do when you reach those points is entirely your own.

 

Looking at another science fiction classic - a literary one - I use an example taken from Dune, and examine Paul Atredies' 'future sight'. He saw the future as like a landscape, a series of highs and lows - the highs were these 'specific points', the crisis points at which crucial decisions were made, and he was unable to see what lay beyond that ridge - the rest of the future, in other words - until he had reached the top and he was at the crisis point. At which point he would be able to see all the way to the next ones, but not beyond them.

 

If we look at one genuine example of farseeing in Star Wars - Luke's visions of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City, while he was on Dagobah - he was able to see to that crisis point, that important pivot in his destiny. The Force gave him that vision, but it was his choice to go there - and, likewise, things could have gone either way, for him to die, for him to reject the dark side, or for him to embrace it.

 

Ergo - the Force is not the death of Free Will, but if one is Force Sensitive, then the Force tends to make the choices you are presented with very important indeed.

[The Great Phantom]

Here's a conjecture; the Force is not the death of Free Will. Although it might guide your life to a specific point, even a series of specific points, the choice of what to do when you reach those points is entirely your own.

 

Looking at another science fiction classic - a literary one - I use an example taken from Dune, and examine Paul Atredies' 'future sight'. He saw the future as like a landscape, a series of highs and lows - the highs were these 'specific points', the crisis points at which crucial decisions were made, and he was unable to see what lay beyond that ridge - the rest of the future, in other words - until he had reached the top and he was at the crisis point. At which point he would be able to see all the way to the next ones, but not beyond them.

 

If we look at one genuine example of farseeing in Star Wars - Luke's visions of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City, while he was on Dagobah - he was able to see to that crisis point, that important pivot in his destiny. The Force gave him that vision, but it was his choice to go there - and, likewise, things could have gone either way, for him to die, for him to reject the dark side, or for him to embrace it.

 

Ergo - the Force is not the death of Free Will, but if one is Force Sensitive, then the Force tends to make the choices you are presented with very important indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:'( Beautiful! I almost cried when I read this. You perfected my statements without using examples of theology, and instead replaced it with the MUCH PREFERED movie quote.

 

No, I'm not being sarcastic. That was a PERFECT way to explain it... I was trying to say it differently, but I made little sense, I suppose... That was BEAUTIFUL! :'(

[The Great Phantom]

I'm surprised this topic isn't getting more visitors... The Nature of the Force usually draws flame wars all over...

[Sepp]

The nature of the Force and what it means to be a Jedi is a central theme of The New Jedi Order series. To be a Jedi is to serve the Force.

 

"We serve it best by listening to its will, and serving the good with our every action

[metadigital]

Here's a conjecture; the Force is not the death of Free Will. Although it might guide your life to a specific point, even a series of specific points, the choice of what to do when you reach those points is entirely your own.

 

Looking at another science fiction classic - a literary one - I use an example taken from Dune, and examine Paul Atredies' 'future sight'. He saw the future as like a landscape, a series of highs and lows - the highs were these 'specific points', the crisis points at which crucial decisions were made, and he was unable to see what lay beyond that ridge - the rest of the future, in other words - until he had reached the top and he was at the crisis point. At which point he would be able to see all the way to the next ones, but not beyond them.

 

If we look at one genuine example of farseeing in Star Wars - Luke's visions of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City, while he was on Dagobah - he was able to see to that crisis point, that important pivot in his destiny. The Force gave him that vision, but it was his choice to go there - and, likewise, things could have gone either way, for him to die, for him to reject the dark side, or for him to embrace it.

 

Ergo - the Force is not the death of Free Will, but if one is Force Sensitive, then the Force tends to make the choices you are presented with very important indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Very cogent hypothesis, but doesn't address the central dilemma: is The Force acting on the characters? I.e., to use your Luke example, is The Force guiding Luke? Experiences are necessarily subjective: given that, it is impossible to grant a vision without putting some bias on it; so -- again to use Luke in ESB -- is The Force preparing Luke for the confrontation with Vader, aquainting him with the risks (Leia and Han; the Rebellion) and leading him to the choice he ultimately -- predictably -- makes?

 

In other words, maybe Luke is being told exactly what he needs to be, in order to correctly motivate him to choose to confront Vader (risking the Rebellion to save his friends) ... Embodying the Light, protecting the innocent few (which is counter-intuitive to the normal hedonistic economics of "The Good of the many outweighs the Good of the few, or the one" (apologies to Paramount and Star Trek) ).

 

Luke is just an instrument of the Light -- and therefore The Force.

 

I guess this is most disturbing because it is an inherrent paradox -- a semantic contradiction. The Light we regard as a derivative of Free Will, yet it is entirely possible that an individual's will is subsumed into the higher purpose.

 

Which changes the whole scenario ... All of a sudden, the Light Side doesn't support free will and consensus of the participants, based on the merit of a particular future, but is just a variation on its ontological totalitarian twin -- the Dark side -- as it manipulates its followers in the same manner.

 

Perhaps the final battle is not with lightsabers, but between combatants on an entirely different battlefield; maybe Kreia was a Christ-like prophet that the future inhabitants of the KotOR universe will look back on in an entirely different way ... ... The forces for True Free Will versus the tyranny of The Force ...

[metadigital]

The nature of the Force and what it means to be a Jedi is a central theme of The New Jedi Order series. To be a Jedi is to serve the Force.

 

"We serve it best by listening to its will, and serving the good with our every action

[Sepp]

I don't really want to get into a flame war, which it seems this post is aiming at

 

The "flame" line was a nod to The Great Phantom who mentioned that it's almost strange that no horde of fanatics has yet attempted to conquer this thread as so often happens. I thought what I posted would make for splendid target-practive indeed for such people, is all.

 

the immaculate conception is a standard plot device used to [...]

 

Why, sure. What I was trying to get at is: I guess the Force is to blame for Shmi's pregnancy. As in, it was the will of the Force. That kind of direction.

 

"Serving the Force" might just be the terminology for living -- and enforcing the rules for others in the society -- according to the generally accepted code of behaviours that are the most sociologically sound -- to use a humanist frame of reference -- like the ten commands of the Old Testament / Torah, or the two commandments of the Gospels. It doesn't really tell us anymore about our dilemma of the Force having a Will (or in fact two distinct wills: Dark and Light).

 

["Certainly" not two distinct wills. The Force is one. *New flame target.*]

 

You're right, of course. I think Luke didn't mean anything much beyond "do what would be in keeping with the Force" an-- ugh. Well. Aren't the Ten Commandments, like, the will of God? ^___^' Anyway, this is terrible to really discuss and more like "guessing."

 

Guess: The Force, like God, would be most delighted if everything would be just fine. In balance and all that. Terribly generalized, but eh. I think that's a pretty safe guess, even. But maybe not. Moreover, the Force, like God and what-have-you, can also at times apart from guiding things if listened/allowed to, go so far as to actually directly influence or do something.

 

That the Force has or has not got a "will" does not have to be tied to there being "choice" or not.

 

 

I say again: What is Kreia was right? 

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"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

 

^Reading that, I think she does not say "I found out the Force has a will" or something like that. She says "It is said that the Force has a will" as if it is something commonly heard or accapted or often said and she with all her experiences believes it as well.

What sets her apart from these others and what your question goes at I guess is that she equals Will of the Force = No Choice. =(

 

That, I don't believe. Which doesn't have to mean anything, of course.

 

 

After Nietzsche: There is no such thing as free will. There is also no such thing as unfree will. There is only strong will, and weak will.

[metadigital]

I don't really want to get into a flame war, which it seems this post is aiming at

 

The "flame" line was a nod to The Great Phantom who mentioned that it's almost strange that no horde of fanatics has yet attempted to conquer this thread as so often happens. I thought what I posted would make for splendid target-practive indeed for such people, is all.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, quite pleased there aren't the usual digressions into playground banter about who did what to whom. I was just trying to disarm the ticking bomb, is all.

 

the immaculate conception is a standard plot device used to [...]

 

Why, sure. What I was trying to get at is: I guess the Force is to blame for Shmi's pregnancy. As in, it was the will of the Force. That kind of direction.

 

Ahh, okay, point taken and I concur that it certainly shows an active, willful Force.

 

"Serving the Force" might just be the terminology for living -- and enforcing the rules for others in the society -- according to the generally accepted code of behaviours that are the most sociologically sound -- to use a humanist frame of reference -- like the ten commands of the Old Testament / Torah, or the two commandments of the Gospels. It doesn't really tell us anymore about our dilemma of the Force having a Will (or in fact two distinct wills: Dark and Light).

 

["Certainly" not two distinct wills. The Force is one. *New flame target.*]

 

You're right, of course. I think Luke didn't mean anything much beyond "do what would be in keeping with the Force" an-- ugh. Well. Aren't the Ten Commandments, like, the will of God? ^_^' Anyway, this is terrible to really discuss and more like "guessing."

 

Guess: The Force, like God, would be most delighted if everything would be just fine. In balance and all that. Terribly generalized, but eh. I think that's a pretty safe guess, even. But maybe not. Moreover, the Force, like God and what-have-you, can also at times apart from guiding things if listened/allowed to, go so far as to actually directly influence or do something.

 

"Certainly" a very capricious, confused, and even schizophrenic will.

 

I say again: What if Kreia was right? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

 

^Reading that, I think she does not say "I found out the Force has a will" or something like that. She says "It is said that the Force has a will" as if it is something commonly heard or accapted or often said and she with all her experiences believes it as well.

What sets her apart from these others and what your question goes at I guess is that she equals Will of the Force = No Choice. =(

 

That, I don't believe. Which doesn't have to mean anything, of course.

 

 

After Nietzsche: There is no such thing as free will. There is also no such thing as unfree will. There is only strong will, and weak will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, it seems to me that Kreia is rebelling against The Force because it compells the universe and all her inhabitants to assist in its strategy (which presumably is a journey of self-discovery and self-actualisation, if such a concept can be applied to a super-being, or indeed we may personify a god with such mundane psychological needs " ).

 

Interesting quote from Nietzche. If I understand it aright, he is proposing a chaotic non-deterministic universe. One of his contemporaries, however, did not subscribe to this philosophy. Jung believed in synchronicity, which states that events are connected not just by cause-and-effect (as Neitzche seems to be saying), but by meaning -- i.e. "meaningful coincidences". Y'know, how when you haven't thought of a distant friend or family member for years and suddenly they call you ...

 

Kreia might yet be revered as the first to see the yoke about the universe; the one who woke up to the true fate of the universe and struck the first blow of emancipation.

 

It makes for a terrific, bold new plot: the Anti-Jedi who do battle against The Great Tyrant (a.k.a The Force). It would mean new powers, new combat and the total annihilation of all Force Sensitives ... (until the Force recovers in about 4000 years' time ...)

[The Great Phantom]

What the Jedi mean by 'serve the Force' is to balance themselves in it. They seek the same thing that it does (the death of inner turmoil), and in doing so, to destroy Chaos. The Force is technically selfdestructive (like that song "I'm a hazard to myself!"). It strives to find balance, but those that it supports (and in turn, support it) have morals, and lack-thereof, so it has to 'split' itself to continue to support its livelyhood (all life).

 

The Force was created by life, and it is life. It would NOT intentionally destroy itself (or, LIFE), but LIFE destroys other LIFE (look at hunters), so it has to follow suite. Just my thoughts, though.

[FaramirK]

I always thought of the force as a morally neutral power source that anyone could "tap in to" to further own aims, whether selfless or selfish.

 

I think the whole idea is fundamentally flawed , because if the Force is morally neutral, why would it seek a balance between the dark and light side? If you could choose to strive for good, or for a balance of good and evil, what would you choose?

 

For example, if your town was home home to a local authority which attempted to keep the peace and the Mafia, would you want a balance between both, or to eradicate the group causing suffering?

 

I never really thought of either side as wanting a balance as much as wanting to destroy the other. What great intelligence is orchastrating the return to light in times of darkness, or the encroaching darkness in times of light? The Medichlorians(sp?) ? Or is it really just an ammunition dump avaliable to either side?

 

Interesting stuff.

[metadigital]

I always thought of the force as a morally neutral power source that anyone could "tap in to" to further own aims, whether selfless or selfish. 

 

I think the whole idea is fundamentally flawed , because if the Force is morally neutral, why would it seek a balance between the dark and light side?  If you could choose to strive for good, or for a balance of good and evil, what would you choose?

 

For example, if your town was home home to a local authority which attempted to keep the peace and the Mafia, would you want a balance between both, or to eradicate the group causing suffering?

 

I never really thought of either side as wanting a balance as much as wanting to destroy the other.  What great intelligence is orchastrating the return to light in times of darkness, or the encroaching darkness in times of light?  The Medichlorians(sp?) ?  Or is it really just an ammunition dump avaliable to either side?

 

Interesting stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you are confused. It is quite feasible to have a force (small "f") like gravity, that always seeks balance.

 

Gravity seeks to attract bodies together according to their mass and the inverse of the square of their distance apart, and the further apart the longer the the acceleration acts upon the bodies, so the more violent the force that acts on the bodies. So, too, The Force (capital "F") could act similarly, violently pulling the extreme Dark and Light FSs back to the middle, and balance.

 

It is also quite plausible (although it doesn't adhere to Occham's Razor " ) to have a godhead, a super-being orchestrating galactic events for purposes only known to the Alpha & Omega of creation.

 

By giving The Force a Will, LucasArts in KotOR2 is basically re-defining a physical system we are familiar with from the movies as a theological one. The Force is not Newtonian (or even Shinto/Confuscian/Budhist), it's Judeo-Christian.

 

But I'm not an expert on oriental religions (even though I have studied Confuscianism), so if anyone knows about Shintoism and Budhism such that it might shed some more light on this, I would be pleased to hear from them.

 

Because the teachings of Budha might reveal a higher purpose to the universe, one that predicates illusory free will (because as I understand it, a Budhist believes that the world we live in is an illusion, just a "testing ground" for the real afterlife).

 

[Sepp]

Mmmmmhhhz, thought-provoking stuff.

 

metadigital: As to what you called a chaotic non-deterministic universe vs. meaningful coincidences - an existing mix of both sounds "plausible" to me. Ehm. Stuff!

 

Judeo-Christianity is not what I would compare the Force to. It is almost 100% the Tao. From a certain point of view.

Also regarding what the "balance" means I think. Not the greyish-ness that is equally distant from light and dark because it is "neutral". But the state of atunement to the comos and whatnot that is beyond nomeclature like good or evil (but which would, by us, still be described as "good" in a sense of universal harmony and stuff). That making any sense?

 

http://tao.nolallen.com/taoteching.html See chapter 16 for example. And a lot of others. Uh. o_O

[FaramirK]

By giving The Force a Will, LucasArts in KotOR2 is basically re-defining a physical system we are familiar with from the movies as a theological one. The Force is not Newtonian (or even Shinto/Confuscian/Budhist), it's Judeo-Christian.

 

Your argument that The Force may repels both light and dark extremes to keep a balance was perfectly valid.

 

However, I don't see how you can draw any comparison between The Force seeking to keep a balance between dark and light and the theological claims of either Judaism or Christianity.

 

The Force is based on what George Lucas believes about good and evil, not Christianity, even though his view may have been based on his own vague understanding of the pseudo-christian values he grew up with.

 

To say that the "The Force is Judeo-Christian", is not true.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your argument, if so, please explain.

[metadigital]

...

However, I don't see how you can draw any comparison between The Force seeking to keep a balance between dark and light and the theological claims of either Judaism or Christianity.

 

The Force is based on what George Lucas believes about good and evil, not Christianity, even though his view may have been based on his own vague understanding of the pseudo-christian values he grew up with.

 

To say that the "The Force is Judeo-Christian", is not true.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your argument, if so, please explain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, you're forgeting something: I'm incorporating the new information given to us by Kreia in KotOR2, inasmuch as she believes that The Force has a Will of its own.

 

As I have stated earlier, This makes The Force a totally different ontological entity than what we have been led to believe until now. It is a fundamental shift in how we understand this magical phenomena.

 

So, either:

The Force has no will, and is just a co-efficient of the alignment of the particular FS (and some other integral part of them -- seemingly the midichlorians, so that Darth Vader had a stronger co-efficient of The Force than, say Jabba The Hutt, even though they may have been of a similar alignment -- but just ignore this bit for the sake of simplicity). This is the traditionally accepted ("canonical") interpretation of The Force. Equivalent in theology to, say, Shintoism. (Remember, Lucas has said he based the Jedi on the Samurai, who were mainly Shinto and Confucian. If you add Ninja influences -- perhaps like the Sith in the prequels -- then we can include Buddhism, because this is what most Ninja subscribed to.)

 

Or, if the Force has a Will of its own -- in that it actively shapes events in the universe according to its own desired design -- then this is equivalent to a godhead (similar to the Judeo-Christian god). What made Judaism, and consequently Christianity and Islam (whose followers are all "Sons of Abraham", and hence collectively known as Judeo-Christian) new and unique in the pantheon of ancient gods and goddesses is that they all believe in One God*, who is Everywhere and Everywhen. (Again, for simplicity, ignore the Christian Trinity, or confine your thoughts to God the Father.) Previously gods were restricted to geographical or meteorological phenomena (Poseidon is God of the Sea and Earthquakes; Zeus is God of the Sky, Isis Goddess of Beauty and Life (responsible for flooding of the Nile plains), etc).

 

So, when I refer to a Judeo-Christian godhead, I am not necessarily saying LucasArts were saying The Force is Alla, Jesus Christ or Yahveh, merely that they are equating it with a single, omni-present (assumedly omnipowerful and omniscient) God. For simplicity I probably should just have used the term Monotheism.

 

In fact, as I have mentioned elsewhere, it would be easier to argue that The Force was in fact Dark in nature, rather than Light. It would remove the constraint that causes the Epicurean Paradox, namely that God is Good. That is to say: if, for argument's sake, we said The Force was a malevolent God, it would explain why Evil exists in this world (and, conversely, why Good exists, being merely to create more opportunity to spread misery and evil farther and over longer periods).

 

Which definitely would not be the same as saying The Force is God! :D

 

 

*Incidentally, this is what the story of Exodus chronicles. The people of Israel escaping from the incarceration of Egypt and their gods, follow the pillar that is the One God. God is not bound to a single geographical point or bounded by any worldly consraints. This exodus is a metaphor, as there is no evidence for an actual mass migration of people through the desert (the remnants of which would still be visible today, as the area has been a desert for the intervening millennia).

[FaramirK]

Yep, you're forgeting something: I'm incorporating the new information given to us by Kreia in KotOR2, inasmuch as she believes that The Force has a Will of its own.

 

I haven't finished KOTOR 2 yet, so I don't know what all Kreia says. So, I can't argue on way or the other about anything she says until I have played the game to the end.

 

So, either:

The Force has no will, and is just a co-efficient of the alignment of the particular FS (and some other integral part of them -- seemingly the midichlorians, so that Darth Vader had a stronger co-efficient of The Force than, say Jabba The Hutt, even though they may have been of a similar alignment -- but just ignore this bit for the sake of simplicity). This is the traditionally accepted ("canonical") interpretation of The Force. Equivalent in theology to, say, Shintoism. (Remember, Lucas has said he based the Jedi on the Samurai, who were mainly Shinto and Confucian. If you add Ninja influences -- perhaps like the Sith in the prequels -- then we can include Buddhism, because this is what most Ninja subscribed to.)

 

Or, if the Force has a Will of its own -- in that it actively shapes events in the universe according to its own desired design -- then this is equivalent to a godhead

 

Yes. I agree.

 

What made Judaism, and consequently Christianity and Islam (whose followers are all "Sons of Abraham", and hence collectively known as Judeo-Christian)

 

Islam is not, and does not claim to be Judeo-Christian. It claims it is the only accurate account of "what really happened", and claims superiority over the two older, well established faiths. It is a curious claim indeed. While the NT builds upon the OT, the Qu'ran contradicts both.

 

So, when I refer to a Judeo-Christian godhead, I am not necessarily saying LucasArts were saying The Force is Alla, Jesus Christ or Yahveh, merely that they are equating it with a single, omni-present (assumedly omnipowerful and omniscient) God. For simplicity I probably should just have used the term Monotheism.

 

Ok, I understand what your saying, but I still see The Force as more of a mixture of fate and Pantheism than Monotheism.

 

In fact, as I have mentioned elsewhere, it would be easier to argue that The Force was in fact Dark in nature, rather than Light.

 

This is true.

 

*Incidentally, this is what the story of Exodus chronicles. The people of Israel escaping from the incarceration of Egypt and their gods, follow the pillar that is the One God. God is not bound to a single geographical point or bounded by any worldly consraints. This exodus is a metaphor, as there is no evidence for an actual mass migration of people through the desert (the remnants of which would still be visible today, as the area has been a desert for the intervening millennia).

 

Neither Exodus or any other part of the bible suggests that The Exodus was a metaphor, rather recording it as a historical fact. Either the Exodus actually happened, or the Bible is a flawed document.

[The Great Phantom]

The Force is ALL LIFE embodied. Since LIVING BEINGS divide amongst themselves, the Force is 'forced' to do so as well. It has no sides, but is merely an embodiment of those it touches (ALL LIFE, not JUST Fs's!).

 

Don't compare it to any gods. It was created for SW, and is best left there. Same goes for theologies.

 

The Force is just ALL LIFE! All Jedi (even in the Kotor Series) hold to this. Kreia only implies that the Force has more control than she wants it to (although the Jedi don't care, and the Sith don't either as long as they feel they're free). She blames it for MAKING Revan fall and ALL OF HER suffering.

 

Kreia has suffered MUCH at all hands, and she blames it on the thing that she is able to trace all life back to: The Force.

[FaramirK]

The Force is ALL LIFE embodied. Since LIVING BEINGS divide amongst themselves, the Force is 'forced' to do so as well. It has no sides, but is merely an embodiment of those it touches (ALL LIFE, not JUST Fs's!).

 

Don't compare it to any gods. It was created for SW, and is best left there. Same goes for theologies.

 

The Force is just ALL LIFE! All Jedi (even in the Kotor Series) hold to this. Kreia only implies that the Force has more control than she wants it to (although the Jedi don't care, and the Sith don't either as long as they feel they're free). She blames it for MAKING Revan fall and ALL OF HER suffering.

 

Kreia has suffered MUCH at all hands, and she blames it on the thing that she is able to trace all life back to: The Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So was she trying to wipe out all life?

[The Great Phantom]

Yes. She says so herself, FaramirK.

 

(Revelation scene btwn Desciple and Kreia, w/ out specific dialogue)

Disciple sees the ripples in the Force, and their effects.

Kreia asks what he sees, and he says that he says the Death of all Life

 

Kreia says that that alone would be worthless. But, it is necessary to show the Jedi Masters the 'errors of their ways'.

 

If somebody can drag up that convo, it would be much appreciated.

[metadigital]

What made Judaism, and consequently Christianity and Islam (whose followers are all "Sons of Abraham", and hence collectively known as Judeo-Christian)

 

Islam is not, and does not claim to be Judeo-Christian. It claims it is the only accurate account of "what really happened", and claims superiority over the two older, well established faiths. It is a curious claim indeed. While the NT builds upon the OT, the Qu'ran contradicts both.

 

*Incidentally, this is what the story of Exodus chronicles. The people of Israel escaping from the incarceration of Egypt and their gods, follow the pillar that is the One God. God is not bound to a single geographical point or bounded by any worldly consraints. This exodus is a metaphor, as there is no evidence for an actual mass migration of people through the desert (the remnants of which would still be visible today, as the area has been a desert for the intervening millennia).

 

Neither Exodus or any other part of the bible suggests that The Exodus was a metaphor, rather recording it as a historical fact. Either the Exodus actually happened, or the Bible is a flawed document.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Muslims are included in the Abrahamic faiths, so I am happy to use this instead of the term Judeo-Christian.

 

Re: Exodus. Oh dear, I wondered if I'd get a response to this -- I nearly didn't post it. Oh well, here we go:

Your literal interpretation of scripture is your business, but I certainly don't need to regard the Old Testament / Torah as an historical document to extract the fascinating information it contains. (I suppose you'll argue that God created the world in seven days, too. Or that every Christian must believe that is so. This is commonly called a literal or conservative view; there are also progressive Christians -- and Jews, for that matter. Don't embarrass us all by foisting your ignorance on us and calling it logical argument.) "

 

Anyway, I don't really want to start a new debate on the claims of the Abrahamic religions in general, and Christianity in particular. Suffice it to say, based on your posts thus far, I don't think you know enough about it to debate me. So, if you must, take it offline: send me a PM if you want to discuss these theologies. (It's only fair to warn you that I gave up arguing with religious zealots on the internet almost two decades ago as they were too easy to defeat.)

 

As for what Kreia says, have you not bothered to read this thread? If you look back less than eight posts and you will see a direct quote that we are discussing. Here, for your benefit, I'll repeat it:

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

 

There, see? The predicate of the first sentence? So, taking this as my cue, I have been musing on the theological shift engendered by this statement. I was under the impression that everyone here was, too.

 

It is generally accepted netiquette to read through the thread before posting, which it seems that you haven't done. I welcome constructive philospohical discussion.

[metadigital]

Yes. She says so herself, FaramirK.

 

(Revelation scene btwn Desciple and Kreia, w/ out specific dialogue)

Disciple sees the ripples in the Force, and their effects.

Kreia asks what he sees, and he says that he says the Death of all Life

 

Kreia says that that alone would be worthless. But, it is necessary to show the Jedi Masters the 'errors of their ways'.

 

If somebody can drag up that convo, it would be much appreciated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not quite.

 

 

The threat to all life is Darth Nihilis, who is devouring life to feed his needs, which in turn will result in all life being destroyed.

Kreia wants to kill The Force by killing the Exile (the wound in the Force) at Malachor V (the site which begat said wound).

 

 

Hence my musings the bold new story based on Kreia being the Prophet for the new Anti-Force-Sensitives: those who support Free Will, and are sworn enemies of The Force (The Great Tyrant) and consequently all Force Sensitives (Jedi and Sith).

:D