Endless Ending

[Royal_Nonesuch]

This is just a strange theory about the ending of KOTOR II that ocurred to me. I found that there were remarkable similarities in the ending and beginning. Badly damaged Ebon Hawk, seemingly dead Kreia, injured Exile. We only got to see the Hawk flying away--not where it ended up. Perhaps the story begins at that point--miners discover the Hawk with the seemingly dead Kreia, injured Exile and T3. We all know what happens next. It could be a loop. Or, something even stranger. I read this very interesting book by a Russian philosopher. He suggested that a dream is ordered towards its end. For example, we think that an alarm clock interrupts a dream, but, this philsopher believes, that the dream ocurred only because of the clock ringing. Now maybe KOTOR II occured in a similar way everything happend because of and surrounding Malachor--there is the beginning, middle and end.

 

Now that I have completely confused myself, what do you think? Is the KOTOR II story in some sort of loop, or a type "dream"?

 

Thanks,

 

Royal

[Ice-Cold]

Well, all that sounds good and all, but it would make no sense, the Ebon Hawk was escaping a battle with the Sith and the Republic, Darth Sion fired a few rounds at the Hawk, and I think I heard that the Hawk was about to goto hyperdrive when the ship was damaged by Sion.. so everyone on the Hawk was either severly wounded, or dead.

 

The stuff in the medical tanks, you find out that the HK-50 unit was keeping you incapacitated so the Bounty would be more easier to collect. you wake up on the station, not knowing how you got there, or what ship you where on because you where still recovering from the tanks, so obviously your not gonna remember anything.

 

Oh and also, it wouldnt make sense because we find out the Exile, was Exiled and his powers where gone. the end of K2 doesnt show him losing his powers during the Mandalorian War on Malachor.

 

To be honest, the Ending on KotOR2 seemed just like Empire Strikes Back ending.

[><FISH'>]

nice try.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

Ice-Cold you make some very good points--perhaps I should have thought that through a bit more lol. I have trouble with the ending primarily (as do all) because it fails to account for your party mems.

In the deleted material there is more, but how would they get off the planet? Kreia implies that they will. Maybe some didn't even join the Exile?

I don;t know, but I like the idea that it was an Empire Strikes Back ending, at least that theory bodes well for the future. Maybe the female Exile will go rescue Atton from a carbonite freeze on Nar Shadda?? Wouldn't mind that--as long as there are no Ewoks!

 

Royal

[Aegis]

For example, we think that an alarm clock interrupts a dream, but, this philsopher believes, that the dream ocurred only because of the clock ringing.

 

Philosophers are generally full of crap. I've read philosophy, I should know.

A more scientific approach; we dream all the time when we sleep. Several dreams per night usually. The reason we *remember* the dream is because it was interrupted by a clock or whatever. Dreams are forgotten very quickly, and if you're not pulled out of your sleep, you'll forget it before you wake up. Even after you've woken up in the middle of a dream, it's often very hard to remember even if it felt very vivid.

[Influence]

It is the beginning of the Jedi's decline throughout the Galaxy. Individual Jedi begin to leave the Jedi Order, and the Jedi Watchmen of many systems, disenchanted with the endless, pointless struggles, step down and exile themselves in unknown quadrants of the galaxy, echoing the disillusionment of Jedi Master JOLEE BINDO. These are referred to by scribes of the time as the LOST JEDI. With their numbers already thinned by the war with DARTH MALAK, the Jedi Order is reduced to less than one hundred surviving Jedi Knights. As the numbers of Jedi continue to dwindle, the remaining practitioners of the light side of the Force believe the Lost Jedi to have forsaken the Order, but in fact, many of them are victims of Sith Assassins, or are being captured and imprisoned on the dark side world of MALACHOR V, waiting to be converted to the dark side of the Force. Under the watchful gaze of a corrupted Jedi KREIA, many of these Jedi die, but some are converted.

 

Coming to the realization that they are being targeted by a hidden and insidious adversary, the Jedi Order scatter, going to ground in an attempt to draw out the attackers. To all intents and purposes, the Jedi Order disbands, and renounces the Old Republic. One of the Order, JEDI MASTER ATRIS, gives in to her frustration and the collapse of the Jedi Order, and begins to delve into Sith holocrons to attempt to determine the nature of the threat facing the Jedi. Attempting to summon the remaining Jedi she has kept contact with, Atris attempts to call a Jedi Conclave under the strict agreement of secrecy on a Midrim world. She struggles to comprehend her actions as the Conclave is interrupted when every single Jedi attending vanishes without a trace. It is later discovered that all of them were savagely culled by Dark Side Sith Assassins under the command of DARTH NIHILUS. Unknown to the rest of the Jedi, Atris secretly leaked knowledge of the Jedi attending the Conclave in the hopes that the enemy would reveal themselves. However, the results were worse than Atris could have possibly imagined.

 

Hahaha way off topic but ur theory whiel creative is a littel ahrd to swallow so i thought i would reply randomness with randomness

 

P.S. this stuff is on teh KOTOR2 website... I cant beleive the site gives u more information about what happpened then the actual game!!!!

[Hey Steve]

Whoa, dude, you just, like, blew my mind.

 

Did you ever just look at your fingers? Like, I mean, just LOOK at them?

 

Dude.

[Influence]

Whoa, dude, you just, like, blew my mind.

 

Did you ever just look at your fingers?  Like, I mean, just LOOK at them?

 

Dude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Notasophist]

Philosophers are generally full of crap. I've read philosophy, I should know.

 

Not trying to digress or anything, but how the hell did you come to that conclusion without philosophizing?

Keep in mind that science is the bastard child of philosophy...

[Jivin]

For example, we think that an alarm clock interrupts a dream, but, this philsopher believes, that the dream ocurred only because of the clock ringing.

 

Philosophers are generally full of crap. I've read philosophy, I should know.

 

 

Steady on there! Anyone with such a ridiculously ignorant point of view doesn't know. Fair enough that you dont subscribe to the validity of philosphy, but it has an important role in the world we live in (and beyond even?) and is the study of those who beleive that there is more to our existance than what you can read in a physics textbook.

 

I will certainly not be the one to tell you what to beleive, but please try to keep an open mind, or at least keep thoughts from a closed one to yourself.

 

On topic though... its interesting that you would try and relate the philosphy you read with the game, however as others have pointed it, it doesn't really set sail Interesting though. Do you mind sharing the name of the book you read with me please Royal_Nonesuch?

 

Cheers

- Dan

[nuanil]

Whoa, dude, you just, like, blew my mind.

 

Did you ever just look at your fingers?  Like, I mean, just LOOK at them?

 

Dude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dude, I think there was something in that jawa!

[Aegis]

Keep in mind that science is the bastard child of philosophy...

 

Depending on how you look at it, pretty much everything comes from philosophy. Math and logic, which in turn resulted in science. The difference here is that philosophy deals with, basically, the nature of reality. Science deals with reality as we perceive it. Science isn't wrong because it never claimed to be right, whereas philosophy really doesn't have a clue what it's talking about.

 

Steady on there! Anyone with such a ridiculously ignorant point of view doesn't know. Fair enough that you dont subscribe to the validity of philosphy, but it has an important role in the world we live in (and beyond even?) and is the study of those who beleive that there is more to our existance than what you can read in a physics textbook.

I will certainly not be the one to tell you what to beleive, but please try to keep an open mind, or at least keep thoughts from a closed one to yourself.

 

How, exactly, does this relate to anything regarding dreams and alarm clocks? I don't have a closed mind, I merely think it's pointless to go make up a theory about how you dream because a clock is ringing when there is scientific evidence that suggest that it's not so. The study of our perceived reality should be left to science, philosophy can get anything else.

[Aegis]

Oh, and:

 

"They call them fingers, but I never see them fing... Oh, there they go."

[Jivin]

Unfortunately I do not have a good knowledge of the philosophy of which the original poster spoke of, and due to that I have no current standing on whether or not I beleive it. Given that, I cannot tell you "exactly" why my post relates to the philosophy, and I am sorry if my post read as if I was attacking your beleifs on the matter.

 

I was more responding to your comment:

 

Philosophers are generally full of crap. I've read philosophy, I should know.

 

its an extremely typical, ignorant thing to say. This isn't an appropriate place to get into a debate on such things, and given the small amount we know about each other and our respective beleifs, it could be that we have nothing really to debate anyway. I took a small amount of offense to your comment, and thats what I was commenting on... I don't really feel there is any need to go on with it any further though. No hard feelings.

 

Cheers,

- Dan

[Royal_Nonesuch]

Do you mind sharing the name of the book you read with me please Royal_Nonesuch?

 

No problem, the book is called "Iconostasis" by Pavel Florensky. It is primarily about art and has influenced some very famous Russian filmakers--such as Tarkovsky.

 

Regarding the appropriateness of philosophy, I did not intend by any means to start a debate on the nature of philosophy by bringing in those comments. I only wanted to offer an alternative interpretation of KOTOR II's ending and that particular philosopher helped me to do that. After all, KOTOR II is a work of art (as much as film or anything else is) and philosophers' comments on art could certainly apply. It is also Star Wars which has many mystical and philosohphical (as do many works in the sci/fi/fantasy genre) themes that can be further elaborated by connecting them with existing philosophy.

 

 

That was only one possible interpretation of the ending. I would really like to hear anyone else's theories. I would be very happy if someone could explain the ending in more practical terms, or in more pilosophical ones. The ending needs some discussion.

 

Thanks all,

 

Royal

[Jivin]

I know its not as good as getting "real time" discussion, but you will find lots of worthwhile stuff on this forum by using the search function

 

Should be enough to keep you going for a while at least... there is some good stuff that has been posted here!

 

- Dan

[Aegis]

You were offended by it? How is that even possible?

 

The history of philosophy is filled with people who think they know a whole lot more than they actually do, and if you want to debate that, I'd first like to see you prove any of the philosophical theories we've seen in, oh, let's say, the last 2000 years. That should keep you busy for a while (2000 years so far and counting). Unless you can manage to do that, what we have here is a case of 2000 years worth of people who come up with wild guesses and elevate them into facts. I don't know about you, but that is close enough to being full of crap as far as I'm concerned.

 

I have no problem with philosophy, but the minute you start turning it into science or using it to prove a scientific theory, you're treading on thin ice indeed.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The idea of being stuck in a loop is fascinating. If you can get hold of it, you might like a Macedonian film called Before the Rain , which uses the same concept to good effect. It has an excellent soundtrack, too.

 

The ending of Kotor 2 was rather rushed, with lots of loose ends and ambiguities, and this leaves the whole thing open to many different interpretations. Everyone has to fill in the gaps for themselves. Some welcome this as a refreshing change to the spoonfeeding of your average Hollywood movie, others think it's poor writing or lack of polish.

 

Philosophy is the study of doubt and ignorance, and intersects with every branch of knowledge. As an instinctive 'realist' (I think that's the right term?), I find it hard to grasp a lot of the concepts involved and the subjectivity of much philosophical thought, but I still find it interesting and useful. From a realist perspective, the idea of Kotor 2 being in a loop doesn't stand up to the available evidence, but of course that's not the point, since the evidence itself is also in doubt. It can be rather humbling to learn how little we can actually know for sure about the world.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

Before the Rain sounds very interesting--I'll be sure to check that out. Thanks for the suggestion. I think, ultimately, that KOTOR II's ending is not in a loop. I think you're also correct in saying there is not much we can be certain about due to the amibguity of the ending.

I do think there is a strong implication that the Exile is heading to join Revan

which would also eliminate the loop idea. We will not know for sure until KOTOR III comes out--and probably not even then. Maybe more deleted material will surface, or perhaps expansion packs? Probably wishful thinking lol.

 

Royal

[Vashanti]

Nah, the cheesy "it's all a dream" thing was already done by "Dallas."

 

[Royal_Nonesuch]

Nah, the cheesy "it's all a dream" thing was already done by "Dallas." 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lol, I forgot about the dream year on Dallas. The only game I can think of off hand that was a dream is Mario 2 (not that big of a spoiler lol). At the end the audience is shcoked to see that Mario had dreamt the entire crazy event. I think Howard the Duck had a dream ending as well. The thought of KOTOR II ending like Howard the Duck is not very inspiring come to think of it...

 

Royal

[Jivin]

You were offended by it? How is that even possible?

 

The history of philosophy is filled with people who think they know a whole lot more than they actually do, and if you want to debate that, I'd first like to see you prove any of the philosophical theories we've seen in, oh, let's say, the last 2000 years. That should keep you busy for a while (2000 years so far and counting). Unless you can manage to do that, what we have here is a case of 2000 years worth of people who come up with wild guesses and elevate them into facts. I don't know about you, but that is close enough to being full of crap as far as I'm concerned.

 

Edit:

I have no problem with philosophy, but the minute you start turning it into science or using it to prove a scientific theory, you're threading on thin ice indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you misunderstood my intentions, and perhaps I overreacted in response to your initial post. In the interests of keeping the peace, lets just drop the subject ok?

 

Thanks

- Dan