Jedi Belief

[DarthWeevil]

Erm. I put myself down as Jedi on that census " *shrugs* It was as much a statement of my own very much patchwork spiritual beliefs, as much as a statement of how little regard I hold such things as these census things.

 

And all that happened was next time (in 10 years) there will be a little number code on the computer system for 'Jedi', rather than it getting put under 'Other'.

 

Its funny cos you can be taken to court for ANY false answers you give on the census, but the one question you can't is religion. Well, obviously. Nobody has the right to tell me what I beleive, even if they think I am yanking their chain. well they do have that right but they can't lock me up if they don't beleive me.

 

Hmm maybe they should.

 

Anyway back on topic, there wasa post way earlier which pointed out the Zen Buddhist thing and there's been a few more since. I think that's a close approximation. He even lifts lines from buddhist philosophy and uses them in Episode 2, where Anakin tells Padme Jedis are supposed to have 'Compassion but not attachment' That is one of the core buddhist beleifs, that all unhappiness comes from attachment, its why most buddhists lead lives of ascetism and celibacy. As do Jedi.

 

If you look at one of GLs main influences it was the director Akira Kurosawa, who directed Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and Rashomon among others, a lot of the concepts he put forward were influenced by those films. Jedi beleifs have a lot of philosophies borrowed from Bushido, and a lot of spirituality from Eastern esoteric religions. (In case anyone wonders, esoteric is a religion which centres on the individual in relation to the world around him, rather than focusing on a perceived exterior influence (say.. God) and its implications on the individual. Correct me if I'm wrong there I didn't get that from a dictionary but I'm pretty sure that's correct)

 

Don't forget Shinto either, a very animistic religion. One of the core beliefs of the Jedi is that even inanimate objects have 'life', and that each are bound to each other, that basically all matter is Life, not just vegetation and animals. That's animism in a (very simplified) nutshell for you.

[Lemurmania]

Neitzche mainstreamed it. "The strong should impose their will on the weak" and slave master morality.  pretty disturbing stuff, hitler Followed it in Mein Kompf(my struggle if you dont speak germen).  Good pointing this out.

I think equating Nietzsche's writing with the Nazi philosophy is questionable. Remember, Nietzsche hated his sister's husband, who happened to be an Aryan supremacist. Also remember that N. went mad at the end of his life, and his sister got total control over him and his writing. Note that the book the Nazis went around thumping, "Will to Power," was produced by his sister after he was institutionalized, and didn't resemble any of his other books. Also note that Nietzsche went out of his way to praise Judaism several times.

 

If you want a writer whose work really influneced the Nazis, look no further than Wagner. He was much more hard-core about racial supremacy.

 

Nietzsche's thing, in brief, was all about abandoning conventional morality so that (here's the really important bit) you could construct a more strict, more demanding code of conduct for yourself. That's why he talked about his theoretical followers as supermen (ubermenschen). They would be so morally pure that they could consruct, codify, embrace and enforce their own morality. He has some line about "you shall be your own judge, jury and pale executioner."

 

But all anybody remembers about him is the "God is dead" line and the fact that Hitler loved his sister. Oh well.

 

I don't think Nietzsche is a good match for the Sith. Still way too much emphasis on morality. I nominate Social Darwinism as the closest fit. Remember, IBM and the US Government began eugenics experiements in the USA based on those theories. Admittedly, they ended them in the 1920s, but it's a neat little fact that the USA had its own flirtation with "kill the weak before they can consume valuable resources."

 

Creepy.

[DarthWeevil]

Nietzsche's thing, in brief, was all about abandoning conventional morality so that (here's the really important bit) you could construct a more strict, more demanding code of conduct for yourself. That's why he talked about his theoretical followers as supermen (ubermenschen). They would be so morally pure that they could consruct, codify, embrace and enforce their own morality. He has some line about "you shall be your own judge, jury and pale executioner."

 

But all anybody remembers about him is the "God is dead" line and the fact that Hitler loved his sister. Oh well.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice post.

Wish i was able to retain that sort of knowledge, I was aware Neitzche is misinterpreted a hell of a lot though.

 

Another quote people quote a little too much is 'When fighting monsters we must beware not to become monsters.' and 'When staring into the abyss (now here my memory gets foggy its either.. ) beware lest the abyss stares back at you.. (or) be careful it does not pull you in' or words to that effect, if ya can clear that one up I'd be grateful lemur

 

 

*Slaps forehead* and now I gone and quoted it... :"> (w00t)

[Lemurmania]

Another quote people quote a little too much is 'When fighting monsters we must beware not to become monsters.' and 'When staring into the abyss (now here my memory gets foggy its either.. ) beware lest the abyss stares back at  you.. (or) be careful it does not pull you in' or words to that effect, if ya can clear that one up I'd be grateful lemur

The line is translated variously, but the most common version goes: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

 

N. was very concerned with what happens when you yank away the moral perogative of religion. He believed that the Judeo-Christian notion of God had functioned as a cement binding society together, and that losing the cement might bring the whole building down. A particularly poignant quote:

 

"What were we doing when we unchained the earth from the sun?  Where are we moving? ... Are we not straying through an infinite nothing?  Do you not feel the breath of empty space?  ...  What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?

In other words, if we're going to abandon all conventions, what's left? Aren't we lost? Aren't we like little kids who've been abandoned by their parents?

 

We're living this out in my home country right now. Science and rationalism make religion more and more of an option, a lifestyle choice, if you will. We don't need it to explain why it rains, why the sky is blue, why thunder sounds like a big boom. We now know that the thunder doesn't come from Thor striking his giant anvil in the sky.

 

But this advance of rationalism and empiricism is coming with a price. People of faith feel like they're under constant assault, and they're striking back, trying to regain control of a society that feels increasingly hostile to them. How can they not feel under assault? Unless they can reconcile science and religion, they're going to be angry, angry, angry. For those who can accept nothing but a literal reading of their scripture, these must be very trying times. It's all a bit like the Taliban, trying to enforce a "pure" version of Islam on a country that doesn't much give a d@mn.

 

Every day I see evidence of the Talibanization of my country. Films that mention evolution can't be shown in Red states because of a fear of fundamentalist backlash. Link. Some states are requiring that faith-based science be taught alongside real biology. Link. National leaders declare that "the jury is out" on evolution, which must be a hell of a surprise to virologists and drug companies. Link.

 

None of this would be happening if science and rationalism hadn't taken such a strong hold in our society. Nietzsche saw this coming, saw that losing God would leave a God-shaped hole in peoples' lives. His answer was that we would evolve past the need for a supernatural daddy-figure, and so become "supermen." I suspect the reality will be much more complicated.

 

(Yes, I know, it's obvious I've read way too much on this subject.)

[DarthWeevil]

Another quote people quote a little too much is 'When fighting monsters we must beware not to become monsters.' and 'When staring into the abyss (now here my memory gets foggy its either.. ) beware lest the abyss stares back at  you.. (or) be careful it does not pull you in' or words to that effect, if ya can clear that one up I'd be grateful lemur

The line is translated variously, but the most common version goes: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

 

N. was very concerned with what happens when you yank away the moral perogative or religion. He believed that the Judeo-Christian notion of God had functioned as a cement binding society together, and that losing the cement might bring the whole building down. A particularly poignant quote:

 

"What were we doing when we unchained the earth from the sun?  Where are we moving? ... Are we not straying through an infinite nothing?  Do you not feel the breath of empty space?  ...  What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?

In other words, if we're going to abandon all conventions, what's left? Aren't we lost? Aren't we like little kids who've lost their parents?

 

We're living this out in my home country right now. Science and rationalism make religion more and more of an option, a lifestyle choice, if you will. We don't need it to explain why it rains, why the sky is blue, why thunder sounds like a big boom. We now know that the thunder doesn't come from Thor striking his giant anvil in the sky.

 

But this advance of rationalism and empiricism is coming with a price. People of faith feel like they're under constant assault, and they're striking back, trying to regain control of a society that feels increasingly hostile to them. How can they not feel under assault? Unless they can reconcile science and religion, they're going to be angry, angry, angry. For those who can accept nothing but a literal reading of their scripture, these must be very trying times. It's all a bit like the Taliban, trying to enforce a "pure" version of Islam on a country that doesn't much give a d@mn.

 

Every day I see evidence of the Talibanization of my country. Films that mention evolution can't be shown in Red states because of a fear of fundamentalist backlash. Link. Some states are requiring that faith-based science be taught alongside real biology. Link. National leaders declare that "the jury is out" on evolution, which must be a hell of a surprise to virologists and drug companies. Link.

 

None of this would be happening if science and rationalism hadn't taken such a strong hold in our society. Nietzsche saw this coming, saw that losing God would leave a God-shaped hole in peoples' lives. His answer was that we would evolve past the need for a supernatural daddy-figure, and so become "supermen." I suspect the reality will be much more complicated.

 

(Yes, I know, it's obvious I've read way too much on this subject.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow.

 

thanks. Might go and read up on him

[WITHTEETH]

Lemurmania: very interesting. i need to hit my books again, its been awhile. but if you guys want to know a really rgeat site that im a fan of, heres one Parascience

[Odinson]

Another quote people quote a little too much is 'When fighting monsters we must beware not to become monsters.' and 'When staring into the abyss (now here my memory gets foggy its either.. ) beware lest the abyss stares back at  you.. (or) be careful it does not pull you in' or words to that effect, if ya can clear that one up I'd be grateful lemur

The line is translated variously, but the most common version goes: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

 

N. was very concerned with what happens when you yank away the moral perogative of religion. He believed that the Judeo-Christian notion of God had functioned as a cement binding society together, and that losing the cement might bring the whole building down. A particularly poignant quote:

 

"What were we doing when we unchained the earth from the sun?  Where are we moving? ... Are we not straying through an infinite nothing?  Do you not feel the breath of empty space?  ...  What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?

In other words, if we're going to abandon all conventions, what's left? Aren't we lost? Aren't we like little kids who've been abandoned by their parents?

 

We're living this out in my home country right now. Science and rationalism make religion more and more of an option, a lifestyle choice, if you will. We don't need it to explain why it rains, why the sky is blue, why thunder sounds like a big boom. We now know that the thunder doesn't come from Thor striking his giant anvil in the sky.

 

But this advance of rationalism and empiricism is coming with a price. People of faith feel like they're under constant assault, and they're striking back, trying to regain control of a society that feels increasingly hostile to them. How can they not feel under assault? Unless they can reconcile science and religion, they're going to be angry, angry, angry. For those who can accept nothing but a literal reading of their scripture, these must be very trying times. It's all a bit like the Taliban, trying to enforce a "pure" version of Islam on a country that doesn't much give a d@mn.

 

Every day I see evidence of the Talibanization of my country. Films that mention evolution can't be shown in Red states because of a fear of fundamentalist backlash. Link. Some states are requiring that faith-based science be taught alongside real biology. Link. National leaders declare that "the jury is out" on evolution, which must be a hell of a surprise to virologists and drug companies. Link.

 

None of this would be happening if science and rationalism hadn't taken such a strong hold in our society. Nietzsche saw this coming, saw that losing God would leave a God-shaped hole in peoples' lives. His answer was that we would evolve past the need for a supernatural daddy-figure, and so become "supermen." I suspect the reality will be much more complicated.

 

(Yes, I know, it's obvious I've read way too much on this subject.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On the contrary. You have provided an interesting insight on religion and science. Why does religion feel threated by evolution? I'll think on this.

[WITHTEETH]

If evolution is right then what they have been following all their life is the biggest hoax in thw world. interesting. maybe its all about the ruling majority. so that moajority can place their set ethics in law, thats why they fight so hard. But because of machevilli, western goverments haven't been dominated by secular influence.

or maybe... they fear evolution... because they fear death. no god no salvation no heaven. interesting... any comments on the current thoughts???

 

Should we fear death? subjective... I don't, i jsut want to make an impression while im alive.

[DarthWeevil]

If evolution is right then what they have been following all their life is the biggest hoax in thw world. interesting. maybe its all about the ruling majority. so that moajority can place their set ethics in law, thats why they fight so hard.  But because of machevilli, western goverments haven't been dominated by secular influence.

or maybe... they fear evolution... because they fear death. no god no salvation no heaven. interesting... any comments on the current thoughts???

 

Should we fear death? subjective... I don't,  i jsut want to make an impression while im alive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't entirely agree... though much of what you said does fit into my own view

 

*flexs knuckles with a crack* Ok. this might meander a bit so i apologise if it does. gonna try and be buddhist about it as much as possible.

 

If religion were not based on dogma and purely upon seeking the message behind what it preaches then they MIGHT realise that their 'Bible' 'Koran' 'Torah' 'Star Wars Trilogy DVD Boxed Set', is simply a sety of symbolic tales, perhaps in places based on fact, but generally, STORIES which were taken by the religion and presented as the truth purely because they said something about what philosophers and wisemen/women (though lets be honest we men have rightly or wrongly have had the better run of it from a social point of view) considered to be the fundamental issues of the essence of being human. that they chose to write it in the context of whichever god they worshipped at the time means very little. As religions develop they adapt, they take on beliefs which become considered a good way of life.

 

In this last two millenia Christianity has borrowed pagan festivals in order to have its own, and taken the general meaning of each, applying it to a Christian model.

 

This begs the question. how many times has this happened before? How much therefore can we truly believe that 'God' made Adam out of clay, or 'Moses stepped down form a mountain with a big tabletcarved with rules'. He may have even told people that. there have ALWAYS been clever people willing to maniupulate the beleifs of others, not always to malicious intent. In my opinion, these people wanted to forge a society, they realised religion was the tool.

 

Chances are what really happened... these religious types got together carved up a tablet... 'hmmm how are we gonna get this through to them ... hey Moses, you seem to be popular, I got an idea...'

 

My opinion. what is the problem with the concept that 'God' created a universe with such a perfect system one that works like CLOCKWORK adapting, evolving to threats which could eradicate life from the planet, a continuous an unending cycle of life that. galaxies and solar systems revolving around each other spiralling to infinity, or certainly to a point incomprehensible to our minds at present.

 

Why can't dogmatics accept that DINOSAURS ARE REAL therefore not EVERY word in the Bible can be true.

 

to paraphrase Bill Hicks again... when confronting a fundamentalist christian on this he was told 'They were put there to test us' his answer. 'I think YOU were put here to test ME... do you believe God is screwing with us???'. Like people will get to the 'day of judgement' and a guy with a clipboard is gonna look at half of us and go... Dinosaurs eh? Sorry, that was a hoax. see ya in hell?

 

What the fear is, IMHO is different for the beleivers than it is from those in power over these isntitutions.

 

Those in power fear their 'flock' realising they may have been deceived on a few points, because then they might begin to question a lot more things about their religion.

 

those who beleive these leaders, fear the possibility of having to live in a world where everything is NOT explained for them, where they can no longer trust the hand that guides them. therefore they defend it.

 

But maybe evolution can be true and still not disprove their spiritual beleifs.

 

From a certain point of view, maybe both stories are true. One is simply the metaphorical description of events before science can empirically explain the state of the universe. The other is the physically and empirically PROVEN state of the world to the point at which we can no longer safely say that we can find further proof, or undertsand what we do have.... at least for the time being.

 

God MIGHT exist or he might not(I frankly don't care either way I still wouldn't worship him. I might try to emulate him) . one thing I cannot abide is the belief a book provides better proof of the origins of our earth than a bunch of bones that we can prove beyond reasonable doubt existed millions of years before this book says the world was created.

 

Religion merely has to realise that all science can do, and is trying to do is to describe the physiical world. there are a few 'out there' scientists trying to bridge the gap, but until they actually manage to find whatever they are looking for, its highly unlikely the two disciplines will ever cross into each others territory. Science has more to fear from religion than the other way around.

 

Point: there are only SIX colours in the rainbow.

 

SIX

 

not seven.

 

But when the Vatican was presented with the findings of this splitting of light into its constituent colors, they were impressed. except they had one reservation.

 

Light cannot have 6 colours because 6 is satans number. they sent poor old newton back saying. No you must be wrong. eventually, he divided violet into indigo and violet.. This was met with approval. because 7 is gods number.

 

yes if you look veeeery carefully you might convince yourself you see a band, but in reality, you are just convincing yourself what you have always been taught is true.

 

And people trust their spiritual well being into the hands of such charlatans?

[WITHTEETH]

very knowledgable. i liked it. thank you!

 

Nice quote, its from Army of darkness right?

[DarthWeevil]

very knowledgable. i liked it. thank you!

 

Nice quote, its from Army of darkness right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah it is great movie

 

 

I like that website by the way

 

" I think I used to be a 'popular occultist'. Or maybe I might have become a real occultist once, had it not been all the 'popular occultists' putting me off. <_<

[Lemurmania]

DarthWeevil, thanks for a deep and interesting post. Withteeth, the parascience site looks interesting -- I'll have to give it a read today.

 

As religions develop they adapt, they take on beliefs which become considered a good way of life.

Or they don't. That's the danger of fundamentalism. At some point it's very tempting to say, "Look, it's written in my holy book, therefore it's literally true, and nothing else is."

 

It makes a sort of perverse sense. Faith is irrational by definition (meaning that if you could logically arrive at it, you wouldn't require faith). The paradox of using an irrational model to understand an increasingly scientific and secular world must give folks a bit of a headache. Deciding that all that intellectial, rational, science-based stuff is just heresy and unbelief, and that everything is explaind in Holy Book of Your Choice must be a great relief. Much easier than attempting to reconcile science and faith.

 

For what it's worth, this is how Islam got side-tracked from cultural dominance. Up until the 14th century, everything enlightened and progressive was happening in the Caliphate, not Christendom. Algebra, geometry, literature, poetry, music, art, perservation of the classics, it was all happening in Baghdad, not Britain.

 

And then the fundamentalists took over. Out goes art. Out goes optics. Out goes mathematics. Out goes everything but the Holy Book. Everything you need is in scripture.

 

In this Lemur's humble opionion, there's nothing more poisonous to a civilization than religious fundamentalism. Countries can recover from genocide and fascism in a generation. Some countries can recover from communism in less than half a century. But fundmentalism? Man, when the holy rollers take over, you're doomed for centuries. Nothing kills off an enlightenment more permanently.

 

This is why I'm moderately freaked-out by the rise of fundamentalism in the USA. The alliance between the Republican party and the fundamentalists looks a lot like the alliance between the House of Saud and the Wahhabbis on some days.

 

But maybe evolution can be true and still not disprove their spiritual beleifs.

Most scientists also believe in God, so clearly the two don't need to be toxic to one another. Science and religion can coexist just fine. It's science and fundamentalism that can't be roommates.

 

Religion merely has to realise that all science can do, and is trying to do is to describe the physical world.

But therein lies the problem. For someone who is religious, there's no contradiction at all. But for a fundamentalist, either the Big Book explains everything or nothing. There can be no middle ground. Either Thor is banging his anvil in the sky or an electrostatic discharge has created lightning. Either the bones in the ground are demons who couldn't escape Noah's flood or they're dinosaurs. To a fundamentalist it can't be both ways, since a fundamentalist rejects the notion that the stories in their Holy Book might be metaphorical.

 

Loved the story about Newton. Classic stuff.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Interesting stuff.

 

Inability to change is a fundamental flaw. Especially when your taking the word of god from a book that is 2000 years out of date. Science was equally wrong at times, but science was never bound by dogma that they could not be wrong. They did the best they could with what they had. As new technologies were invented other avenues of investigation became open.

 

I was watching a program about how many people the current catholic stance on not wearing condoms kills and it's mindboggling.

 

This inability to change leaves two paths. Ignore the whole thing and go your own way. Stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that none of the evidence like fossils exist. Litte wonder that congragations are falling over the western world.

[WITHTEETH]

"This is why I'm moderately freaked-out by the rise of fundamentalism in the USA. The alliance between the Republican party and the fundamentalists looks a lot like the alliance between the House of Saud and the Wahhabbis on some days." -

Lemurmania

it is reason to freak out , they barely give us room to breath. if things keep going the way they are, then this country is going to become a corporate military theological oligarchi. its scarey! democracy is morphing, and for the past 5 years not in a good way. I was flabbergasted when bush won because "it was a moral issue". i wish those southern republicans would OPEN THEIR EYES on to whats going on, and stop hurting themselves because of a grudge. somepeople say it goes back to the civil rights act but i just think its their fear of liberal elites running their lives.

And the war on terror... oh, you meant the hegemony we have in iraq?

these are just my current thouts. comments???

[SW fan]

weird topic man

[Laozi]

^^^ getting that post count up are we SW fan?

[><FISH'>]

o.O Owned

[Lemurmania]

Sorry, SW Fan, did we get a little deep? Too much of that dang book larnin'?

[DarthWeevil]

Sorry, SW Fan, did we get a little deep? Too much of that dang book larnin'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To be continued by the way. Just finishing my dissertation