what is kreia's true aim?

[Zilod]

Notice how everybody agreed on one thing: What happened to the Exile was bad. Very Bad. Everyone that knows anything except Kreia agrees with this.

 

If you are referring to the experience on Malachor i think that even Kreia understand what the Exile have suffered, i see that when she speak to the jedi council (before killing them )

 

If you are referring of the fact that the Exile is severed from the force i disagree...

Only the council (end the Exile) see this as a bad thing, they see the exile as deaf, blind and incomplete, but they really can't understand him.

 

I think in this case is very important what Visas says after dantooine... something like: "they saw you as the death of the force, i see you as the hope for the livings"

 

I think that what happens in the game is a process of enlightment to makes the exile understand what he really is.

 

 

As for her strengthening thing: If only the strong survive, but are deafened to the essence of Life, then what's the point?

Why only the strong should survive? I think that what Kreia consider strenght is the ability to fight to improve our condition and to resolve our problems, (expressing ourselves).

Kreia is also not considering the force as the essence of life, yes the force is bounded to life but is not its essence, i think this is the vision of the jedi and is for that that they can't understand the Exile, they just see the death in him and for them he is a deathbringer.... Atris is quite clear about that... she says something like "he is dead on malachor and he continue to die".

 

I couldn't make out the rest of your post, so if I missed something, lemme know.

In the other post i was trying to show how in my opinon Kreia and the model she propose is a positive and creative one and the eventual point of contacts with a positive overman who is different than an egoistic (nazi) one incarned by Nihilus.

 

 

mmm also maybe is better to move on a new topic, we are going way OT.

[Zilod]

No i don't think that Kreia seeks revenge, or she have not to die and the story could have ended with the council or Nihilus death

 

her goal is to forge the Exile not to kill the ones that betrayed her

 

about the council she says that in first person

 

if you kill the council she says that she was not seeking revenge, yes she wanted to show them their blindness and that to be done by one of her students, in no way she wanted to kill them.

 

even more important in that dialogue she show how she hate the "violence" of the war and of death...

 

If the exile begin to speak about killing all his enemies turning out to be a sadic tool of destruction then she tells him that he have not understood anything and that he just become a sterile assassin and murderer.

 

(evenually i can quote the dialogue, but as my english is crappy better to hear that directly, is the first part of the dialogue after the exile just killed the council, there is also a bug in LS that make this happens, if you ask to the council if they see the death in you then you should get the bug and be able to experience the DS part of the enclave. this is a very interesting dialogue that explain a lot about Kreia, the Exile and what she expect from him)

 

(aaa i didn't saw the helicopter analogy can you repost it?)

[AngryTarsier]

I really pity Kreia... with all her power scheaming and manipulation... and betrayal... she never noticed that in her drive to separate the force and man.. to improve human evolution as it is in their universe...

she was actually used by the force as a tool for revolution and balance... thanks to her efforts, the foundations are laid for a new and improve generation of force users... while restoring and preserving the sacred balance..

[Zilod]

mmmm i think she knew that and it show it when she sepak of the force in the end (she seem very angry in my opinion)

 

Everyone is manipulated by the force... Revan, Malak, Nihilus, the council and yes Kreia herself, everyone of them become a tool that the force uses to achieve it's goals...

 

provably even the Exile can be included in the list, even if he is not directly,

 

 

The difference for Kreia is that she understand, and she knows she can't change that destiny, all is alredy set by the force, but still she can forge the exile that can be an example for the others (as said in the long post).

 

I think in the end she is also successfull in her goal, when she tells you that you alredy saved her and that you have for her more than you can guess she see that you finally have finished (or finishing) your process of enlightment.

 

your victory is her victory, the hope you bring is her hope, regardless of the will of the force.

[Helton]

Well, what was her true aim?

 

1. First she leaves the Jedi order because they cannot offer all of the answers. She seeks knowledge.

 

2. She, along with Nihlus and Sion learns the ancient Sith ways. She seeks knowledge.

 

3. The master of betrayal is betrayed and stripped of the force. Plans are revised. You lived without the force, as she is forced to do now, and she wants to know how you did it, and why. She seeks knowledge.

 

4. She finds the Exile, she studies him and teaches him. She realizes that Sion and Nihlus could not live without the force anymore than we cannot live without oxygen. In their strength is inherent weakness. Upon study, all force users have this weakness, as the force is a crutch. All, that is, save the Exile. She seeks to forge the perfect warrior. She seeks knowledge.

 

5. She helps the Exile revisit and defeat all of his ghosts. The Council, Dxun, Atris, Malachor V. One's future cannot be free until he is free of his past. These ghosts had to be faced in order to give the Exile true power, the power of choice. She finds an answer for why the Exile stripped himself of the force, and how he lived, her search for knowledge has ended. The Exile has faced all of his ghosts, only in doing so he created one more, Kreia. She seeks to forge the perfect warrior.

 

6. Kreia allows the Exile to confront her and kill the last thing that controlled him. Her goals are complete.

 

One should not take 'the death of the force' literally. If we are all free to make our own decisions then, in essence, the force has died. That is what Kreia sought, and accomplished.

 

What was her aim, then? At first she sought knowledge, and as she gained it her goals transformed into creating someone who was truly powerful, and truly free.

[radical]

First of all, the key to understanding k2 entirely lies within our perception of the force. During the games and the movies, the force was explained many times, never before as something so complex as in k2. The force is a very controversial thing. During the games it was said the force has a will of its own, and that it has three major sides: l, or d, or simply the absence of it. Of course the will of the force might compromise the free will of life (by life I mean all kind of aware life: Jedi, and simple humans as well), that means that characters, have no real choice, and this is untrue, for the games are all about your choice. To give an explanation to this, I might say, that Nietzsche

[AngryTarsier]

helton gets my vote... knowledge and all that..

 

we should thank obsidian, for giving us a game that left many question and unanswered we can now explore them and learn... Obsidian manipulated us in their search for knowlege and wisdom and if they follow this trend they will make a truly powerful and wonderful game but in the end it will ultimately face them and also destroy them to be truelly perfect. since perfection demands no sequel...

[The Great Phantom]

What people seem to miss is that Kreia didn't necessarily want freedom, but something different. She hated the Force for more than the obvious reasons, as posted in a different thread. She hated Destiny, but that isn't right. Visas, Brianna, Atris, even Malak, all admit to Choice. Even Obi-Wan and Yoda say that the future is hard to tell, because Destiny is not permanent until it happens. I can't remember who said something like this: "The future is never the present until it is the past." or something to that point. The future can't be predicted, because of all the different choices.

 

For example: Darth Revan's cereal is poisoned by Bastila. Does he eat his favorite Trix cereal, or does he go out to IHOP to eat, with his monthly paycheck? If he eats the Trix, then the galaxy is Revan-less. If he goes to IHOP, then Alfred, Revan and Bastila's illigitimate son gets poisoned sneaking his dad's food.

 

See, there are 3+ senarios, not to mention the fact that Bastila didn't have to remain alive this long, with Revan being the genius that he is. Or, Revan could be a girl. Or, Bastila could be a brainwashed Gizka in disguise. Ok, that's exagerating a bit, but you get my point.

[Helton]

Yes, there is choice, but there is so much influence. The Force is not the only thing that controls people, other people do it as well. Past events control us. Places control us. The Exile was perfect because he had tackled the biggest problem all by himself, he had removed the Force as an influence on himself.

[The Great Phantom]

@Helton

Thanks for the support. I've been the lawyer of the Force for the past 12 hours, and it was getting old explaining over and over again.

[AngryTarsier]

let me be vrook this time... but he did it at what cost.. half of the galaxy is in ruins and hundreds if not thousands are dead for one man's freedom over his own destiny... is it trully worth the price

 

I'm soo dead.. *ducks*

[Zilod]

First of all, the key to understanding k2 entirely lies within our perception of the force. During the games and the movies, the force was explained many times, never before as something so complex as in k2. The force is a very controversial thing. During the games it was said the force has a will of its own, and that it has three major sides: l, or d, or simply the absence of it. Of course the will of the force might compromise the free will of life (by life I mean all kind of aware life: Jedi, and simple humans as well), that means that characters, have no real choice, and this is untrue, for the games are all about your choice. To give an explanation to this, I might say, that Nietzsche

[The Great Phantom]

Vrook, huh? Well, I'd kill you, but I just washed my robes after my fight with... Never mind, you're dead! *Slashes Tarsier's limbs off, feeding them to Hanharr making out with a computer terminal*

 

He's not necessarily free, perhaps his destiny was to become a hole, bond with Revan, and serve as a power outlet in the Core of Ziost, causing an implosion of all the True Sith... Or something like that...

[The Great Phantom]

First of all, the key to understanding k2 entirely lies within our perception of the force. During the games and the movies, the force was explained many times, never before as something so complex as in k2. The force is a very controversial thing. During the games it was said the force has a will of its own, and that it has three major sides: l, or d, or simply the absence of it. Of course the will of the force might compromise the free will of life (by life I mean all kind of aware life: Jedi, and simple humans as well), that means that characters, have no real choice, and this is untrue, for the games are all about your choice. To give an explanation to this, I might say, that Nietzsche

[Zilod]

let me vrook this time... but he did it with what cost.. half of the galaxy is in ruins and hundreds if not thousands are dead for one man's freedom over his own destiny... is it trully worth the price that has been paid?

 

I'm soo dead.. *ducks*

Was not Kreia or the Exile to do that.

 

what you see is the force that is achieving balance...

 

Kreia and the Exile are moving in this scenario but this doesn't imply that this happened due to their will.

[The Great Phantom]

Would you just admit to there always being choice???

[dabise]

---------SPOILERS !!!!!!!!!--------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kreia wanted to purge the stagnation out of the Jedi and Sith order. She seeks knowledge and in order to gain that knowledge you cannot sit back and think that something is perfect and needs no change. eg: Teachings of the Jedi and the Sith.

 

 

The theme started with Atris and the council passing judgement on the exile solely upon the teachings of the Jedi. None of them were at Malachor yet they passed judgement on the exile. The best line given was one by you as the exile:

 

"Would we be having this conversation in Mandalorian right now if we had not acted?"

 

 

Kreia chose to save the force. The 'echo' was not the thing destroying it. A bunch of old men and women sitting comfy at a council table were killing it. All they did was study the past to figure out the future and what they should have been doing was acting on the present to decide the future.

 

So what did she do? She used you. She had tried to use Nihilus in the same way but failed and you were the last one of your 'kind'. The Exile (you) had cast away the teachings of the Jedi, had seen war first hand at massive scales, and you were not corrupted by the sith teachings either. The exile was the 'perfect' student.

 

 

Notice how Sion, Nihilus and even Traya all die? Notice how all of the Jedi Council die? She purged the old ways of thinking towards the force and allowed the exile to remake the jedi/sith.

 

Now was the exile the last jedi? No. Revan and the unknown sith empire still existed somewhere out there and Traya knew that the current sith empire and Jedi council did not have what it would take to face the sith that have not been seen yet.

 

The sith you faced would have folded fast to this new power and the Jedi would have sat back and analyzed the problem until it was too late to act (just like Malachor).

 

 

 

So was Tray evil? No. Was she good? No. She was a survivalist and that is her gift to the exile and his/her followers. That is her gift to the galaxy. Only with a new Jedi/Sith order could the galaxy survive.

 

 

I'm willing to put money on my next statement. I bet the next KotOR will involve the sith empire in the unknown region. I'm betting the new 'teachings' forged by Traya's and the Exile's journey in KotOR2 will be the teachings for the new Jedi order and Sith empire.

 

It comes down to something we all understand.

 

Have you ever been in a position where you have to take orders from people who don't know their butt from a hole in the ground? Like that foreman who tells you to do this job before the next when you know that is the wrong order. Do you follow their judgement? If you want to keep your job you do.

 

 

Just like Obsidian. Do you tell your employer that the game is not quite finished and you need more time or do you flip them the bird and finish it the right way and on your own terms?

 

One way will get you fired... guess which way that is hehe. Unfortunately the right way will get you fired. Much like how the exile got 'fired' by going to war against the Jedi 'corporation' because it was the right thing to do.

 

Nothing like taking orders from a bunch of pencil pushing morons, eh? If they took the time to jump down into your shoes for a day I'm sure many of their decisions would be different.

 

 

Some answers cannot be found in books. Sometimes you gotta get in there and get your hands dirty.

[radical]

I never stated there was no choice. I wrote my opinions about freedom-will relation (Nietzsche), and in accordance with that there is choice, and there is choice above all else. As Satr stated us humans allways have choice, even in the most extreme of situations, just that some choices have as consequence scenarios that the choice maker does not want to accept. I almost accept this theory, the difference is that every persons reality and fate is determined by a lot of other (present based) factors, that have no connection to the choices of the person in question, as most obviously this person's actions are factors for other persons' fates. So fate, and the future events to come are mutch like a wave of circumstance, and as you stated in motion, and it is a lot easier to just go with it. The will of the force is like a stronger wave in the SW universe.

[Zilod]

You say enlightened, when her whole point was to prepare the Exile for what is to come...

 

She's much more of a Dark Force Witch than a Sith or Jedi, imh(yet right )o...

 

mmm what is to come?

 

She "prepared" the Exile to be a Man, an example or an overman.

 

 

Dark Force Witch is a class and definition... why dark force?

she's not a dark sider, as much as she is not a lightsider

 

i really see her above these definitions, and she treat them with despise.

[The Great Phantom]

---------SPOILERS !!!!!!!!!--------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kreia wanted to purge the stagnation out of the Jedi and Sith order.  She seeks knowledge and in order to gain that knowledge you cannot sit back and think that something is perfect and needs no change.  eg:  Teachings of the Jedi and the Sith.

 

 

The theme started with Atris and the council passing judgement on the exile solely upon the teachings of the Jedi.  None of them were at Malachor yet they passed judgement on the exile.  The best line given was one by you as the exile:

 

"Would we be having this conversation in Mandalorian right now if we had not acted?"

 

 

Kreia chose to save the force.  The 'echo' was not the thing destroying it.  A bunch of old men and women sitting comfy at a council table were killing it.  All they did was study the past to figure out the future and what they should have been doing was acting on the present to decide the future.

 

So what did she do?  She used you.  She had tried to use Nihilus in the same way but failed and you were the last one of your 'kind'.  The Exile (you) had cast away the teachings of the Jedi, had seen war first hand at massive scales, and you were not corrupted by the sith teachings either.  The exile was the 'perfect' student.

 

 

Notice how Sion, Nihilus and even Traya all die?  Notice how all of the Jedi Council die?  She purged the old ways of thinking towards the force and allowed the exile to remake the jedi/sith.

 

Now was the exile the last jedi?  No.  Revan and the unknown sith empire still existed somewhere out there and Traya knew that the current sith empire and Jedi council did not have what it would take to face the sith that have not been seen yet.

 

The sith you faced would have folded fast to this new power and the Jedi would have sat back and analyzed the problem until it was too late to act (just like Malachor).

 

 

 

So was Tray evil?  No.  Was she good?  No.  She was a survivalist and that is her gift to the exile and his/her followers.  That is her gift to the galaxy.  Only with a new Jedi/Sith order could the galaxy survive.

 

 

I'm willing to put money on my next statement.  I bet the next KotOR will involve the sith empire in the unknown region.  I'm betting the new 'teachings' forged by Traya's and the Exile's journey in KotOR2 will be the teachings for the new Jedi order and Sith empire.

 

It comes down to something we all understand. 

 

Have you ever been in a position where you have to take orders from people who don't know their butt from a hole in the ground?  Like that foreman who tells you to do this job before the next when you know that is the wrong order.  Do you follow their judgement?  If you want to keep your job you do.

 

 

Just like Obsidian.  Do you tell your employer that the game is not quite finished and you need more time or do you flip them the bird and finish it the right way and on your own terms?

 

One way will get you fired... guess which way that is hehe.  Unfortunately the right way will get you fired.  Much like how the exile got 'fired' by going to war against the Jedi 'corporation' because it was the right thing to do.

 

Nothing like taking orders from a bunch of pencil pushing morons, eh?  If they took the time to jump down into your shoes for a day I'm sure many of their decisions would be different.

 

 

Some answers cannot be found in books.  Sometimes you gotta get in there and get your hands dirty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, now that was a respectable post. It didn't trash her, and it didn't worship her. It struck a Balance. Kreia wanted to end stagnation, but that was just finishing Revan's mission. I think that she did many things because of Revan, and his effects on the Jedi. She hated both Jedi and Sith, but found the Exile.

 

By the way, who says that Exile and Nihilus are the 'last' of their 'kind'?

 

I can find no ways to 'correct' your post... It was the backup I needed.

I'm sure, when I actually read all of it, I'll have a few questions, but from what I actually read (most of it) it was good.

[The Great Phantom]

I never stated there was no choice. I wrote my opinions about freedom-will relation (Nietzsche), and in accordance with that there is choice, and there is choice above all else. As Satr stated us humans allways have choice, even in the most extreme of situations, just that some choices have as consequence scenarios that the choice maker does not want to accept. I almost accept this theory, the difference is that every persons reality and fate is determined by a lot of other (present based) factors, that have no connection to the choices of the person in question, as most obviously this person's actions are factors for other persons' fates. So fate, and the future events to come are  mutch like a wave of circumstance, and as you stated in motion, and it is a lot easier to just go with it. The will of the force is like a stronger wave in the SW universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said.

 

You say enlightened, when her whole point was to prepare the Exile for what is to come...

 

She's much more of a Dark Force Witch than a Sith or Jedi, imh(yet right )o...

 

mmm what is to come?

 

She "prepared" the Exile to be a Man, an example or an overman.

 

 

Dark Force Witch is a class and definition... why dark force?

she's not a dark sider, as much as she is not a lightsider

 

i really see her above these definitions, and she treat them with despise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See what I mean by worship?

 

She's mortal, and is puny compared to Revan. I'll side with Revan over her, any day. She understood him well, but Malak understood him just as well, if not better. BUT, he ignored his knowledge, where she uses it for her goals.

[Zilod]

?????

[AngryTarsier]

stubborn vrook again: over the course of the game, how many sentient and semi-sentient beings did you kill?? did you even consider the other ways to resolve a problem without resulting in lose of life?? All life is sacred, it is in the Code, yet in your persuit for freedom how many were needlessly sacrificed? Like before, always rushing for results, not minding what effects your action may bring upon the galaxy, the republic and its populace.

 

hey I'm getting good at this.. maybe I should play vrook... heheheheh

[The Great Phantom]

You sorta fused Vrook's chastising for rushing, and Kreia's chastising for screwing with Echoes... That's her job, don't you know?

 

HAHA, I quieted Zilod!

[Zilod]

@The Great Phantom

LOL i really didn't understood what you meant... is late and my english is crappy eheh

 

 

@AngryTraiser

i think that the only instrumental deaths are the ones of the sith lords Kreia is not telling you to kill all that moves, she also blame you if you turn out to be "just an assassin".

Most of the death, expecially if you play LS, are done for self defence (and for the "level" game mechanic eheh)