More religious bone-headedness

[Dark Lord Revan]

Let me ask you all something.  If you believe that the bible is the word of God and that God is infallable, wouldn't you do everything in your power to spread God's message with regard to sin?  If you believed that the only way to salvation was by living by God's law, would you keep your mouth shut because of political correctness?  The choice to me is simple, if you believe in God and God says that homosexuality, polygamy, and adultury are sins, then don't accept homosexuality, polygamy, and adultury as moral behavior.  I beleve in God, and if some of you think that makes me a bigot, then I guess I am a bigot along with the billions of other people who believe in God. 

Fine, but does that give you the right to impose your beliefs on others. If someone of your mentality gets in my face I will punch his. I have no problems following their religion as long it doesn't impose on the rights of others. Your religion does therefore it needs to be removed from state politics.

 

Separation of church and state needs to be absolute. Practice your religion on your time, not on mine.

Lol, I would love to see you try it Hades, you would get whooped, but let us not get in a battle of who would kick whos ass, such arguements are wastes of time. Secondly, who said anything about imposing what I believe on others? Did I say that if you don't believe what I said, then I will lock you in jail? I would agree with your statement only if there was someform of coersion to do what I say, which would not be very democratic. Thirdly, do you see the word God mentioned anywhere in the constitution? I do not, and rightly so because this (or was) a free country after all. But as any educated person knows, the constitution is not to be interpreted by the people, it is interpreted by the courts. If the courts say that it is okay for two men to marry, then so be it, I won't contest it. You see, you can make all the laws in the world to prevent something immoral from taking place, but in the end, they accomplish nothing. It is society itself that must change, not the laws, otherwise we lose our liberty. I am not seeking to force people to do anything, I am merely asking them to hear my opinion without censure. You might not believe in God right now, but you cannot say for sure that you or your children if you chose to have them will not in the future. So I ask that you be considerate of religion in the future because when you refer to YOUR(meaning mine in your post) religion you really mean OUR religion, because like it or not, Christ had an enormous impact on the history of the world, and if he had not have come, the world would be a totally different place.

[Judge Hades]

Yes it would be a different place, a better place.

[chevan]

Wait, I'm confused. Was that site serious or not? It didn't really seem like it in some spots, but it did in others.

 

My thoughts? Exactly what Fionavar said.

[St Paddy]

Visceris, to say it would be a better place is stupid, I'd have expected better of you. For starters there's no way you can know that. That just dumb on so many levels it doesn't bear arguing anymore

 

And Fionavar, I agree something has to change. I'm a Catholic and consider myself a good person, all things considered. I drink and have sex pre-maritally though (whenever I can at least :D ) which would be considered adultery and probably substance abuse on the former, I don't know. I also have a homosexual acquaintance, who goes to church regularily. The priest knows he is gay, but he doesn't care. And I really don't think God does either. Anyway, I've never harmed anyone, I've even convinced a couple of my friends to start going to church again, but the way some religions teach it, I'm sure to burn in hell. But the way I see it, if I am bound for Hell, then Heaven must be a very lonely place.

 

Maybe it comes from living in a mostly Catholic (98% mostly) community but I never see these evangelising door to door preachers you all love to hate. The way every priest I've ever met teaches religion is that as long as you are a good person and make peace with God (this can also be after you die, you son't need to be christian to go to heaven, even satanist jesus-haters can) then you can go to heaven.

 

It's impossible to live literally by the bible in this modern age, without becoming a hermit. Yes, impossible, and I really feel nobody expects us to either. Many, many of the church's laws were made for things other than to make you a more spiritual/holy person. I'm sure you could say even most concerned health. Anal sex was unclean, you could get sick. Banned. The hot climate made pigs unsanitory. Banned. And so on. Others were of course concerning money. The fish only on fridays is arguably invented for money.

 

I don't know exactly what my point is, only that in my opinion and from my experience, the point of the catholic church (I can't speak for others) is not to convert as many people as possible, but rather to lead by example in being a good person yourself. That's why these bible pushing JCL hypocrits piss me off. Christian or no, the bible has some extremely good lessons, and the bible pushers choose to ignore some key ones themselves. One going something like "You must clean the dirt from your own eye before doing it for your neighbour" seems to be the most commonly forgotten, along with Only God shall judge.

 

Anyway, maybe it's wiser to dismiss the individual than the ideals they profess to represent, as Fionavar said. Well this turned out far longer than intended <_<

[St Paddy]

Wait, I'm confused. Was that site serious or not? It didn't really seem like it in some spots, but it did in others.

 

My thoughts? Exactly what Fionavar said.

I'd seen it before, and concluded it was probably false. It was either that or lose all my faith in the human race.

[Dark Lord Revan]

You believe that the world would be a better place if Christ had not existed? Need I remind you that he was the first person who stood up for the common man during a time when there was no such thing as abuse of power. The wealthy ruled over the masses with little to no regard to them in a manner that far eclipses the way they do it today. Christ was the first to say that the aristocrat is no better than the pauper and that those "who are least among you, shall be first in the kingdom of God". Imagine if society still followed "the Roman way", it would not have survived and we would still be in the dark ages. After Rome fell, it was the church that preserved learning and science. The ancient world destroyed itself because of its gluttonous immoral society, a lesson to remember, and the world was plunged into darkness that lasted a thousand years. The only reason it did not lapse back into the stone age can be traced back to one man, Jesus Christ. So I do not think the world would be a better place, instead of chatting it up here on a computer we would be worrying if we were going to eat and wondering if our warlord has any plans that will get us killed. But I don't think I can bring you to Christ so I won't try, I will ask you however to be less disrespectful to people who do believe in God as it amounts to bigotry. In my attack on homosexuality you did not see me ridiculing homosexuals in any way, nor portraying them as somehow inferior, and I ask that you extend me and others the same courtesy. I must say now, I find this topic rather boring, I could rattle off pages on theology, but it is a waste of time. I will now focus on things that provide me with some form of entertainment or pleasure such as playing some serious battlefield 1942. B)

[St Paddy]

Again, this argument is stupid. You might as well actually have an argument about Europe's economy pending a hypothetical invasion by Australia fifty years from now. Two thousand years is a very, very long time for things to go differently if even one minor event changed, let alone a major one like Jesus Christ's life.

[Fionavar]

Actually the fall of Rome is directly connected with the constant migration of nomadic peoples who were being displaced and forced westward. Once the Roman Empire took on a defensive posture, it became inevitable that it could not hold back the constant and changing threats. A simple explanation, but then it is generally considered probable. Dark Lord Revan you might find it interesting to note that one of the first noteworthy treatise on the subject - written by Edward Gibbons - had a love hate relationship with Chrisitianity.

 

Many people have contended that what actually held the Empire together for so long was the growing influence of the church and the adoption of church structure into the day to day governance of the state. In the end, however, it was more due to a system that could not afford its defenses and opted to decentralise authority, until the local municipalities had to bear the load that had once been centralised. Furthermore, the Roman Empire - proper if you will - survived well into the 15th century CE. And the only reason that Constantinople fell - some argue - was not due to gluttony - it was due to the Crusades that the Papcy used to justify the conversion and recapture of the Holy Land through bloodshed. I won't debate the interpretation, only to point out that it was not until the 12th century that the Eastern Empire - for lack of a better term - began to have to defend itself on two fronts.

 

On the western with the Papacy economically and eventually physically, while the east held the growing Muslem states and principates. Finally, if anything or anyone brought Europe out of the Dark Ages - again for lack of a better word - it was Arab and Islamic scholars who advanced Greek and Roman learning for some 1000 years while the Church imposed a feudal system that only kept any learning alive in sequestered and very remote monestaries - particularily Scottish and Irish, that were really more scholarly than they were theological. Well there is some more socio-historic background.

 

Note: I am not sure where the idea has arisen that someone is arguing that it would have been better if Jesus had not existed is arising, but I can assure you I would not make such an argument, fwiiw.

[Hell Kitty]

You might as well actually have an argument about Europe's economy pending a hypothetical invasion by Australia fifty years from now.

Damnit! He's onto us!

[Judge Hades]

Of all the people who calls themselves religious I have met over the years have been weak minded fools who couldn't think for themselves. Sorry, but religion is nothing but a tool of social control and nothing else. THere is no supernatural, there is no God, there is nothing. Religion is simply a system of social control implemented by those who have inflated egos.

[Taoreich]

Of all the people who calls themselves religious I have met over the years have been weak minded fools who couldn't think for themselves.  Sorry, but religion is nothing but a tool of social control and nothing else.  THere is no supernatural, there is no God, there is nothing.  Religion is simply a system of social control implemented by those who have inflated egos.

Spare us from your brand of "enlightenment," Vis. This statement is just another indictment of your seeming inability to provide anything close to rational insight; or at the very least an inability to articulate it in a manner recognizable to others.

 

For context, I myself am a Christian (non-denominational Protestant, specifically) but this isn't about Christianity necessarily so let's set that aside.

 

"Religion" is in no way related "social control." Look at the basic tenets of Christianity, Judaism or Islam and you will find very little regarding social structure or organization in their respective scriptures aside from a roadmap of ethical values which are shared by most civilizations anyway. How does this, or the concept of a divine creator or the concept of grace and reconciliation control anyone socially?

 

The challenges to which you would seem take exception are found in the ancillary hierarchy and doctrine which, for good or ill, accompany the associated organizations. And you know what? A lot of them are flawed and are populated by those who, though they may or may not have had good intentions to start, have been seduced by power/money/dogma. But this is not indicative of religion, this is indicative of the character of individuals.

 

"weak minded fools" indeed. I would venture to say that there is more merit the concept of a dry-erase marker's divinity than to the idea that you are imbued with something resembling intelligent self-determination.

[Judge Hades]

Spare us from your brand of "enlightenment," Vis.  This statement is just another indictment of your seeming inability to provide anything close to rational insight; or at the very least an inability to articulate it in a manner recognizable to others.

First off, who the hell said I am rational. I am not rational. Never have been and never will be. I would think that would be obvious by now.

 

For context, I myself am a Christian (non-denominational Protestant, specifically) but this isn't about Christianity necessarily so let's set that aside.

 

I have no problem with that just as long as you practice your religion in private. I firmly believe that religion is best practiced in private. No knocking on doors of others, no preaching on the street, just keeping it simple and minding your own business. That isn't too unreasonable is it?

 

"Religion" is in no way related "social control."  Look at the basic tenets of Christianity, Judaism or Islam and you will find very little regarding social structure or organization in their respective scriptures aside from a roadmap of ethical values which are shared by most civilizations anyway.  How does this, or the concept of a divine creator or the concept of grace and reconciliation control anyone socially? 

You don't know your history do you. Can we say Crusades, the Inqusition, Sharia Law, and so forth and so on. I don't care what is written, only the actions that people do in the name of their relgion. Words are meaningless, actions are not.

 

The challenges to which you would seem take exception are found in the ancillary hierarchy and doctrine which, for good or ill, accompany the associated organizations.  And you know what?  A lot of them are flawed and are populated by those who, though they may or may not have had good intentions to start, have been seduced by power/money/dogma.  But this is not indicative of religion, this is indicative of the character of individuals.

 

They are representitves of their religion, and I shall judge their religion on their actions. Sure there are some good people, but most of them aren't at least the ones I have dealt with. As I said, words are meaningless. Judge people by what they do, not by what they say.

 

"weak minded fools" indeed.  I would venture to say that there is more merit the concept of a dry-erase marker's divinity than to the idea that you are imbued with something resembling intelligent self-determination.

 

I do as I do and I couldn't give a rat's ass what other people think of me or what their diety thinks of me. I am myself and that is all that I am, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Cheers! :D

[Karzak]

Without religion we would all be like visc.

[Judge Hades]

Without religion we would all be like visc.

Oh, God forbid that ever happening.

[neriana]

Of all the people who calls themselves religious I have met over the years have been weak minded fools who couldn't think for themselves. Sorry, but religion is nothing but a tool of social control and nothing else. THere is no supernatural, there is no God, there is nothing. Religion is simply a system of social control implemented by those who have inflated egos.

My grandparents are VERY religious people, and also incredible free-thinkers who would never force their positions on anyone else. They visited Russia yearly from about 1980 on until their health failed. They introduced me to many Quakers, Mennonites and others in Virginia (Bible Belt! Shudder!) who are/were highly educated environmentalists, peace and civil rights activists, and so on, and had senses of humor to boot. You can't shove everyone into Dubya's tent, no matter how much he'd like it.

 

And you know that there is no God, Hades_One? Wow. Can I join your cult, since you know everything? Seriously, this isn't something we can possibly know. I believe there is SOMETHING because I've felt it. It may be the Goddess, or gods; hell, it might be The Force for all I know. But don't degrade people who find comfort in the idea that their loved ones are in heaven, and don't scoff at things which the mind of humans cannot know. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

I also think that poking fun at people isn't necessarily bigotry. It's a necessary part of a free and open society to be able to satirize the powerful, and the religious right is VERY powerful in this country today.

[Dark Lord Revan]

I think you would make a good fascist Hades

[Dark Lord Revan]

It's a necessary part of a free and open society to be able to satirize the powerful, and the religious right is VERY powerful in this country today.

Yep. But they will only weaken, it looks like Dubya just might lose this election. I only hope that there is no backlash against religion because of a moron like him claiming to be acting in the name of God with his wars.

[Judge Hades]

Okay, prove to me there is a god? Show me concrete scientific evidence of God then.

 

Show me the evidence that Satan exists as well, or even the mythical figure Death. WHile you are at it show me the evidence that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exists as well.

 

There is no evidence. Just some stories that are centuries old with very little archeaological evidence to back them up.

 

Tell me Neriana, how do you know it was God and not some neural chemical reaction dictating your emotional state? As long as religious people get in my face and scream out "BELIEVE OR BURN IN HELL!" I will get into their face and scream out how I feel about them and their beliefs.

[Atreides]

Of all the people who calls themselves religious I have met over the years have been weak minded fools who couldn't think for themselves.  Sorry, but religion is nothing but a tool of social control and nothing else.  THere is no supernatural, there is no God, there is nothing.  Religion is simply a system of social control implemented by those who have inflated egos.

Followed by:

 

I have no problem with that just as long as you practice your religion in private. I firmly believe that religion is best practiced in private. No knocking on doors of others, no preaching on the street, just keeping it simple and minding your own business. That isn't too unreasonable is it?

 

So, dislike other people shoving their opinions on a personal subject to some but you're pretty fine "sharing" your (somewhat overgeneralised, bigoted views like "Of all the people who calls themselves religious I have met over the years have been weak minded fools who couldn't think for themselves") own in a public forum.

 

Pot calling kettle, come in kettle.

[Judge Hades]

Here on the forum I don't mind. That is what the these forums are for. I am talking about people in the real life, people on the street that get in my face spouting that stuff. Forums like these aren't that big of a deal because if I don't want to hear or read it I can just click to a different page. I am talking about those peeps who go door to door. I am talking about those people who stage stupid protests on government property spouting off hate and using religious rhetoric to justify themselves. I am talking about the street preachers who demonizes other people just because they are different or have different world views.

 

Here on the forums its not that big of a deal/ Its on the street of real life that where my problem is at.

[Rhombus]

The context of applying the literal word argument is simply that you must, by the very nature of living in a modern society, pick and choose what is and is not the word.

 

...

 

that you have not been to a recent stoning, that you likely have eaten pork, that you associate with women during their menstrual cycle, that you have not advocated the killing of the children of your enemies, that your house is not staffed by slaves ...  yes all melodramatic examples to illustrate the many unmentioned examples that are listed as prohibitions throughout Leviticus, to mention only one place in which the literal Christian tradition draws many of its what not to do arguments.

I felt like adding my two fundamentalist cents on this...

 

 

While you seem educated in the old testament texts, you seem to forget the whole Jesus Christ and New Testament texts.

My reason for not being to a recent stoning is because I am not without sin, and as Jesus said, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

My reason for eating pork is because Jesus said that it's not what comes in through the mouth but what comes out (what I say) that makes a man unclean.

My reason for associating with women during their menstrual cycle, well... depends what you mean with associating... ehh..

My reason for not advocating the killing of my enemies children is because Jesus said that I am to love my enemies.

My reason for not having slaves is because slaves was a part of their culture and not mine.

 

What Jesus did was (according to the bible that is) greater than most people think, he came to die for our sins, and fulfill the Law. As such, Paul says that as christians we no longer live under the law of sin, but live through the spirirt of God. The Law was there to show people their sins and even to make people sin!.. and it still is, but the NEW covenant is not that of the law, but that of the spirit. Gods (new) Law is to be written in our hearts as his spirit lives in us, and what the spirit says can be summed up in two simple phrases: To Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength, and to Love your neighbour as yourself.

See, there really is no problem in taking the bible literate, and you don't have to choose what is the word and what isn't... It itself explains it to us if we only do read it.

Still, arguing against things by taking a verse out of it's context like some christians do is like cutting the branch your sitting on... don't know if that picture translates well, but I think you get what I mean...

 

I wonder if I made any sense... (love that smilie)

 

 

 

... and no I can't keep my religion private, to Quote someone famous amongst christians, "How can I be quite about what I've seen and heard!"... also, my saviour did tell me to "preach the gospel to the ends of the earth"

 

... and like Hades said, words means s***, actions means everything... that's why I try, like St Francis, preach the gospel whenever and wherever I am, and if I have to I use words...

 

... and yes, I'm a fundamentalist christian who think all of you will "burn in hell" if you don't repeant and start believing. So please be biggot towards me, so I can turn the other cheek.

 

 

(I am serious, though I feel I did get a pretty non-seriousness about it by the time I got to the "... and" stuff...)

[Atreides]

Here on the forums its not that big of a deal/ Its on the street of real life that where my problem is at.

Didn't you say you were disturbed by the Ayatollah guy's constant references to religion?

[Dark Lord Revan]

Very well stated. Hades let me ask you a rhetorical question. Lets say that you believe in God and you believe that the only way to heaven is to embrace Christ as your savior because he died on the cross for your sins. Knowing that, wouldn't you do everything within your power to bring as many people to Christ as you could knowing that the alternative is eternity in hell? What greater thing could you do for someone than that? Nothing. I think you may be condemning what you do not understand.

[Dark Lord Revan]

Here on the forums its not that big of a deal/  Its on the street of real life that where my problem is at.

Didn't you say you were disturbed by the Ayatollah guy's constant references to religion?

I think that guy was just trying to stir up hate aginst muslims.

[neriana]

Okay, prove to me there is a god?  Show me concrete scientific evidence of God then.

 

Show me the evidence that Satan exists as well, or even the mythical figure Death.  WHile you are at it show me the evidence that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exists as well.

 

There is no evidence.  Just some stories that are centuries old with very little archeaological evidence to back them up.

 

Tell me Neriana, how do you know it was God and not some neural chemical reaction dictating your emotional state?  As long as religious people get in my face and scream out "BELIEVE OR BURN IN HELL!" I will get into their face and scream out how I feel about them and their beliefs.

Er... Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are actually quite easy to disprove, just stay up all night. On the other hand, have you ever read "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus"? If you haven't, look it up.

 

I didn't say what I felt was God. If you read my entire post, you would have seen that I said I did not know what it was. Maybe it was a chemical reaction. You don't know that. You can't know that. Which is my point. None of this can be either proved or disproved - it's a question for religion and philosophy, not science.

 

Pray tell, when did I "get in your face" and scream "believe or burn in hell"? Hell is one thing I adamantly don't believe in because it's logically inconsistent (God must exist for there to be a hell, God is good, God sentences people to torment for eternity - nope.) Screaming at people that they're stupid for having beliefs in that which cannot be proven is just as bad as screaming at people to believe that which cannot be proven. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

And Rhombus, I don't care if you believe I'll burn in hell. That's your right - just don't try to force it on the rest of us through government. You don't seem likely to do that, so I will also turn the other cheek. Judge not lest ye be judged.