What Did You Think Of The 4 Jedi Masters?

[KingofThieves]

I was a little disappointed that what Kreia did to them actually killed them, but I kind of dug what Kreia did to them. They stood and judged him, so Kreia SHOWED them exactly what it was in him they were judging (and perhaps something a little extra, 'cause she seemed to have sucked the life out of them) and theoretically- they couldn't handle what they saw.

 

You REALLY get the impression (through various dialogues throughout the game) that the exile had been kicked around- ALOT- before KotOR 2.

 

You also get the impression that Kreia wants those masters dead, so instead of having some glorious fight-scene- she simply showed them- through the force- what the exile was living with. What he did and saw at Malachor, the wound it created in him and in the force and that was probably enough "force poison" to bring down a herd of bantha.

 

Their deaths were for dramatic effect, I think. They could've been made to have been left unconscious to make a slightly-less stunning point to the same effect. But I really don't mind that she killed them, honestly. "

[metadigital]

I actually think the encounter with the Four Jedi Masters (from a Lightside perspective) was quite fulfilling. And not a surprise.

 

The people working on Obsidian seem to have an adoration for this theme - the hero who returns home only to be rejected by those she has saved. (Previously they have explored it in Fallout) The Jedi Masters are grateful to the Exile for saving them, but they still feel that she poses a great danger to what they love. And this is what Kreia's point is. This is the ultimate story of Knights of the Old Republic II - The Jedi Order is flawed. It has lost touch with true morality, and you see it in the response of the Jedi Masters when faced with something that they fear, that they do not understand. Instead of accepting their proper role, their stated role, they cast it off, and try to make the problem go away.

 

This is consistent with the true nature of the Jedi Order. It is this fear that is its cancer, and leads it to its slow drifting downfall during the rise of the Galactic Empire.

 

I think you see hints of this in the game. In Atton's backstory if you develop it, in what Kreia talks about, and in the musings of Master Kavar. The Jedi seem to suspect that there is something wrong, but it is Kreia who truly sees it. Kreia is just as twisted; she merely goes the other route and tries to destroy /everything./ If you follow G0-T0's conversation paths, though, you see that only two people have the right idea, WHETHER LIGHT OR DARK - the Exile and Revan.

 

So cheers to you, Obsidian, for having the guts to have the Jedi Masters play this role in this story. I think that it was /gutsy/ for them to have this story. I think that they haven't delivered a poor ending simply because they don't bash you over the head with it and show a medal put around the Exile's neck or a Sith fleet heading towards the Core. Yes, I agree that from a production standpoint it's a bit rushed, but there's /no/ weakness in the story. Or, more importantly, in the philosophy they have constructed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I couldn't agree more with all the points you have made. You perfectly summed up everything. It was very gutsy to go with the story they did, and I believe it paid off. People may think it's not as epic as the first game, or it has a weak ending, or plot holes, etc..

 

The fact of the matter is that there are no flaws in the story, just like you said. The characters are so much more developed and interesting in KOTOR II. Not everything is handed to you on a platter, as you have to discover things for yourself, and when the game does reach the point of closure it is all the more satisfying.

 

The Jedi masters themselves simply reveal the flaw in the Jedi order. It needed to be rebuilt. I found Vrook and Atris to be very preachy, arrogant, and foolish. Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell were definitely the brighter of the bunch, and I admired their characters. It would have been nice to have a choice in the matter on Dantooine, but ultimately Kreia does what needed to be done. I felt that the Jedi masters' story played out excellently.

 

I personally feel that The Sith Lords is above and beyond the original in all aspects. Kudos to Obsidian for taking some bold risks. KOTOR II has taken its place as my favourite game ever. Right where it belongs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't understand what you are implying is the Jedi Council's "weakness".

 

Either:

- the Council members are Lawful Good and are baulking at the Exile (et alia) for using expedient tactics to achieve victory (i.e. fighting the Madalorian War), OR

- the Council members are Chaotic Good and are convinced that the Exile is a threat to the existence of The Force, and must be stopped at all costs (wound in The Force),

- BUT NOT BOTH.

 

Either "the end justifies the means" is a slippery slope to the Dark Side and must be apposed (a "Lawful Good" alignment), OR use any means necessary to oppose the threat of the Exile for the greater good (a "Chaotic Good" alignment).

 

It is possible to be a character of Chaotic Good or Lawful Good alignment, but not both at the same time. If the Lawful Good Council members abhor the Exile's actions in the war, they would not condone the action that is taken as punishment (unless, perhaps, the Exile volunteered the solution and wanted to be removed from the force).

 

After all, the theme of the plot is that The Force has a will of its own (aside: this is the first time I am aware of in Star Wars that the allusion to a God has been manifested; up until now The Force was just neutral), so it can be argued that the Exile was merely the pawn of The Force.

 

And if we are to believe that the Council has decided to act expediently and remove the Exile from the Force -- against her will and by force -- then they are guilty of the very crime they accuse the Exile of!

 

This is why I found it slightly hollow. I am not suggesting the initial aim was to use this scene merely as a plot device to herald Act III and the linear end-game, just that I felt this was the result. I applaud the concept, but I would have liked to see several different outcomes to this scene (and even depend on your choices back in the cave on Korriban and the fate of Revan, so that these were not just shallow plot devices and had resonances throughout the game): perhaps one or two of the Masters side with you (the "Chaotic Good" ones: Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell) to build on the tensions and divisions within the Council.

 

Having all dialogue paths lead to the same conclusion takes away the role playing.

 

[metadigital]

... And, considering the actual ending of the game, it might even have been a good idea to have at least one of the dialogue branches end the game at this point.

 

 

(If the Exile chose to be removed from the force, for example.

 

 

It just seems this critical juncture was just a drawn out cutscene with meaningless dialogue choices -- used more to break up the cutscenes and mark the end of Act II / beginning of Act III -- than provide role play.

 

[AlanC9]

Either:

- the Council members are Lawful Good and are baulking at the Exile (et alia) for using expedient tactics to achieve victory (i.e. fighting the Madalorian War), OR

- the Council members are Chaotic Good and are convinced that the Exile is a threat to the existence of The Force, and must be stopped at all costs (wound in The Force),

- BUT NOT BOTH.

 

Could we please not use D&D terms when discussing Star Wars?

 

My big problem with the resolution is that Zez-Kai Ell seems to understand the problem, but then falls right back into the same mistakes. It didn't feel right.

[metadigital]

Either:

- the Council members are Lawful Good and are baulking at the Exile (et alia) for using expedient tactics to achieve victory (i.e. fighting the Madalorian War), OR

- the Council members are Chaotic Good and are convinced that the Exile is a threat to the existence of The Force, and must be stopped at all costs (wound in The Force),

- BUT NOT BOTH.

 

Could we please not use D&D terms when discussing Star Wars?

 

My big problem with the resolution is that Zez Kai-Ell seems to understand the problem, but then falls right back into the same mistakes. It didn't feel right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The best reson to use an AD&D anology is because it represents a pre-existing system designed especially to categorise and explain esoteric PRG concepts, including morality; it has been refined over many years and is quite adequate to do the job.

 

Anyway, yes, I concur: I wanted to have the conversation actually have a point and to cause ramifications, rather than just being a device to unload a lot of plot through the cheapest medium: dialogue.

 

 

For instance, Zez Kai-Ell could have refused to attack, or come to the defence of the Exile.

 

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

How on earth did Atris arrive at the top of the hierarchy anyway? How old was she?

 

She was the Jedi Archivist, could it be that she had been using Sith Holocrons for a long time and no one else onthe council could sense it?

[Invoker]

How on earth did Atris arrive at the top of the hierarchy anyway?    How old was she?

 

She was the Jedi Archivist, could it be that she had been using Sith Holocrons for a long time and no one else onthe council could sense it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Probably. She was the quickest one to reject you and claimed that you walked the Dark Side even though you did not. She didn't really listen to what the others had to say about you. It was more like: "Yes, yes, now, be silent! He walks the Dark Side and blah blah blah".

 

Even when you meet her she still refuses to acknowledge the fact that the Jedi Council's inaction hurt more people than they thought. The council would meditate on the problem while millions upon millions people died as worlds burned.

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

yeah, maybe.

 

Kinda like palpatine - powerful Sith, great wielder of the force. And no one on the jedi Council senses it.

[metadigital]

How on earth did Atris arrive at the top of the hierarchy anyway?    How old was she?

 

She was the Jedi Archivist, could it be that she had been using Sith Holocrons for a long time and no one else onthe council could sense it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It isn't particularly clear how old Atris is in the game. Perhaps she isn't as young as you seem to be assuming; she could quite easily be the equivalent of fifty years old (because age is a meaningless term if you are trying to use Earth references to a Galaxy a long, long way away far, far in the distant past). How old does Julie Andrews look, for crying out loud?

 

What isn't clear is why her appearance isn't in keeping with the thematic Dark Side palour; no foetid, decaying skin for her: perhaps she has a very effective beauty routine. Boy, I bet L'Oreal would pay a lot for that ... :D

[Marka Ragnos]

Well, I hated Vrash, the guy was just too stubborn & close minded. The Jedi Master-with-a-stupid-name was just a **** for hiding & not wanting to be a Jedi anymore, but then deciding to be all tough & stuff when he has 2 other Masters backing him up. The other one was good, but just not strong-willed enough to go against the other two.

 

& I think they were a bit rash in their whole 'we must cut u off from the force' tactic. they came to that conclusion after ahvin a 3 minute conversation with you each? come on! whatever happened to patience, waiting to see the true nature of the threat, being certain in their actions. Hypocritical *@#s!

 

& wot i don't get is, one-on-one, i beat the masters, a few probs with Vrash, but nothin I couldn't handle. i then beat Kreia at the end, no harder than the 3 masters. HOW IN THE HELL THEN, DOES SHE KILL ALL 3 AT ONCE WITH ONE ATTACK!?!?!?! It's not as if she blind-sided them either, they were chattin fer a minute or so before hand! if these were Jedi Masters, no wonder the Jedi were on the verge of extinction at the start of this!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vrook, dang it! Vrook!

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

It isn't particularly clear how old Atris is in the game. Perhaps she isn't as young as you seem to be assuming; she could quite easily be the equivalent of fifty years old (because age is a meaningless term if you are trying to use Earth references to a Galaxy a long, long way away far, far in the distant past). How old does Julie Andrews look, for crying out loud? 

 

What isn't clear is why her appearance isn't in keeping with the thematic Dark Side palour; no foetid, decaying skin for her: perhaps she has a very effective beauty routine. Boy, I bet L'Oreal would pay a lot for that ...  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mein Gott! Atris at 50?!

 

And who the heck is Julie Andrews?

[Baneblade]

And who the heck is Julie Andrews? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Mary Poppins.

[Dragonforce]

i played as a LS character and i tend to think like one

but even i was glad when kreia wiped the last of the council out,

they were the most ungrateful sods, its not enough their order is dieing a death then they have to go and try to disconnect the most powerful of them from the force again out of sheer misguided belief that you were their biggest problem

 

i get the whole way kreia hated both the sith and the jedi councils arrogance, obsidian made it really easy to dislike them

[bluerosy]

What resources exactly would the vatican have to contribute to the war? Van Helsing? Are bishops the "Protectors of the Allies". Inaction seems to be the only similarity, and the Vatican chose to turn a blind eye and might have helped Nazis escape to South America. I fail to see how this paralles anything in Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Vatican is a lousy parallel for the Jedi. The Jedi are samurai-inspired keepers of the peace. The Vatican are religious figureheads and keepers of the peace.

 

The Jedi have a duty to sacrifice their lives, and the combat training, hence they have the capabilities to help in the Mandalorian Wars. The Vatican are just a religious posse.

 

A better parallel would be the United Nations, who have combat capabilities. Maybe think about what it would be like if the United Nations "did nothing" during WWII... I believe that's a better analogy for the Council and hte Mandalorian Wars.

[metadigital]

And who the heck is Julie Andrews? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps you are more familiar with Maria Von Trapp from the Sound of Music?

 

[Baneblade]

Perhaps you are more familiar with Maria Von Trapp from the Sound of Music?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yes, the Sound of Music... great movie I have it on DVD. :D

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

Nope. Not familiar at all.

 

Speaking of the jedi masters, who were the original ones from Dantooine who died on that Mirakula colony?

[Spooky]

Those guys aren't even jedi, but the way they think I guess they could work for Goto and theorise all day. It might've been overkill for Kreia to go medieval on their asses, but I guess alive or dead, they don't make much of a difference.

[Neroyume]

Nope.  Not familiar at all. 

 

Speaking of the jedi masters, who were the original ones from Dantooine who died on that Mirakula colony?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The three that aren't in the game. Masters Zhar, Dorak and Vandar.

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

The three that aren't in the game. Masters Zhar, Dorak and Vandar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Didn't Vandar bite the dust if you played DS for KoTOR? He was with the fleet right?

 

Hmm, it would seem that with the exception of vrook, all the other old foggies from Dantooine croaked. Shame about Zhar though, I thought he was a better Jedi Master than Kavar.

[Baley]

Yup,Vandar died at the end of Kotor along with Adm. Dodoona if you finished as DS

[metadigital]

The three that aren't in the game. Masters Zhar, Dorak and Vandar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Didn't Vandar bite the dust if you played DS for KoTOR? He was with the fleet right?

 

Hmm, it would seem that with the exception of vrook, all the other old foggies from Dantooine croaked. Shame about Zhar though, I thought he was a better Jedi Master than Kavar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shame that Vrook survived. He was as whiney as Carth. "