Malak

[Darth Credulous]

My point is that Malak did while Revan was still Dark Lord, you said Revan would have killed him, which he did not.

 

Saul did the bombing to prove to the Sith he was loyal and it is my understanding he joined while Revan was still Dark Lord. Otherwise, why the confusion in the formentioned argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the other hand, Malak tells Saul, in orbit over Taris, that 'your predecessor once made the mistake of questioning my orders, Admiral'. This suggests that he was not always in the position of command he is when you encounter him, and that his superior officer at the time answered to Malak, not Revan.

 

Perhaps that unnamed superior refused to bomb Telos at Malak's order, and Malak killed him, leaving the suddenly-promoted and fearful Saul to give the order?

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

My point is that Malak did while Revan was still Dark Lord, you said Revan would have killed him, which he did not.

 

Saul did the bombing to prove to the Sith he was loyal and it is my understanding he joined while Revan was still Dark Lord. Otherwise, why the confusion in the formentioned argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the other hand, Malak tells Saul, in orbit over Taris, that 'your predecessor once made the mistake of questioning my orders, Admiral'. This suggests that he was not always in the position of command he is when you encounter him, and that his superior officer at the time answered to Malak, not Revan.

 

Perhaps that unnamed superior refused to bomb Telos at Malak's order, and Malak killed him, leaving the suddenly-promoted and fearful Saul to give the order?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your missing the point. They reported to Malak but Revan was still Dark Lord when Telos was destroyed.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

On topic here. I actually liked Malak. He was a force to be reckoned with. He took over Revan's fleet and none could have stopped him but Revan. I really like him and to be honest, I actually missed him after playing K2.

 

To other post, I read that Darth Vader turn to the DS with the intent to become more powerful to stop those he loved from dying. Even though he turned DS it was sort of for the greater good, at least that's what I heard.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

On topic here. I actually liked Malak. He was a force to be reckoned with. He took over Revan's fleet and none could have stopped him but Revan. I really like him and to be honest, I actually missed him after playing K2.

 

But after TSL is obvious he knew nothing about what Revan was actually trying to do, or the power of Malachor.

 

To other post, I read that Darth Vader turn to the DS with the intent to become more powerful to stop those he loved from dying. Even though he turned DS it was sort of for the greater good, at least that's what I heard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Atleast some else see it that way also.

[DarthReliguim]

I love Malak evn more than I used to love Revan..

[Darth Dan]

The difference between Revan and Malak is this: Malak became Sith for the power that the job entailed. So people would bow down before him. Revan became Sith to save the Republic. His fall was calculated. He became evil to save lives and was succesfull. The Exile cleaned up after him and made the foundation of a new, stronger Jedi order. They have strong leaders such as Carth Onasi in place. The question beckons. If Revan had not done what he had done, would the Council have been able to hold back the True Sith?

[Rex]

Revan certainly had rather major problems with destroying planets, and ultimately left the galaxy all on her lonesome to stop the True Sith, a battle that she would have probably know she wouldn't have come away from.  Vader was Evil to the core, all but a single spot a Good, all that was left on Anikin, that Luke latched onto.  Revan's evil, in my opinion, was only skin deep, and she was more of a Jedi than the Council was.

 

Why do people keep insisting that Revan was only trying to save the Republic? Revan was cold, heartless, and a Sith to his core. He cared nothing about the Republic government, He wanted power because he knew he could take it. He had no problem razing planets and killing innocents, as long as his goals were forwarded. The halogram on Kasyyk in KotOR 1 helps explain Revan's persona, thoughts, ideas, and ideals.

 

I do not understand how many people after KotOR 2 draw to the conclusion that Revan fell to the Darkside and attacked the Republic simply and only in order to save it from the "True Sith". That is not really what KotOR 2 describes. That was simply one reason. Revan believed only HE was strong enough to lead against the "True Sith", this arrogance bred a lust for power, and that lead him to the Darkside. Once fallen he would do anything to achieve his goals, why do you think he would be upset if Malak razed a planet? He razed many when he lead the invasion of the Republic. Revan and Vader were both fascists, believing that what they were doing was good for the whole. No person believes themselves to be evil, it is all point of view.

 

As for Malak, I believe he just didnt care about Revan's plans. Malak wanted power, and he didnt care how he got it, or what he had to do to get it.

[Ace]

Malak was definately a fool, while Revan fell to the darkside for reasons other than pure power. Revan didn't use the Star Forge to its full extent since he wanted to maintain control. He sacrificed pure power to maintain order so that he could conquer the Republic and then fortify it against another threat. Malak though was simply reckless and power-hungry.

 

Revan wanted to 'save the Republic' in the same sense as G0T0. Stabilization of the galaxy was necessary, even if it meant that order had to be attained through the dark side.

 

What surprises me though is that the Sith actually use the light/dark terminology, I would think that they would call it something else in their belief that they aren't so much 'evil' but strong.

[Reveilled]

Your missing the point. They reported to Malak but Revan was still Dark Lord when Telos was destroyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's your evidence for this? I don't remember them ever saying something to that effect. And the fact that Carth does not bring up the fact that Revan was in command and therefore responsible for Malak and Saul's actions when it is pointed out to him that Malak, not Revan gave the order, is to me fairly strong evidence that the Destruction of Telos happened after Revan's capture.

 

Revan certainly had rather major problems with destroying planets, and ultimately left the galaxy all on her lonesome to stop the True Sith, a battle that she would have probably know she wouldn't have come away from.  Vader was Evil to the core, all but a single spot a Good, all that was left on Anikin, that Luke latched onto.  Revan's evil, in my opinion, was only skin deep, and she was more of a Jedi than the Council was.

 

Why do people keep insisting that Revan was only trying to save the Republic? Revan was cold, heartless, and a Sith to his core. He cared nothing about the Republic government, He wanted power because he knew he could take it. He had no problem razing planets and killing innocents, as long as his goals were forwarded. The halogram on Kasyyk in KotOR 1 helps explain Revan's persona, thoughts, ideas, and ideals.

 

I do not understand how many people after KotOR 2 draw to the conclusion that Revan fell to the Darkside and attacked the Republic simply and only in order to save it from the "True Sith". That is not really what KotOR 2 describes. That was simply one reason. Revan believed only HE was strong enough to lead against the "True Sith", this arrogance bred a lust for power, and that lead him to the Darkside. Once fallen he would do anything to achieve his goals, why do you think he would be upset if Malak razed a planet? He razed many when he lead the invasion of the Republic. Revan and Vader were both fascists, believing that what they were doing was good for the whole. No person believes themselves to be evil, it is all point of view.

 

As for Malak, I believe he just didnt care about Revan's plans. Malak wanted power, and he didnt care how he got it, or what he had to do to get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With regards to the hologram on Kashyyk, there is something to that argument, but there are some possibilities. Revan programmed that hologram in the presence of Malak. If Revan was only putting on the appearance of being evil, she could quite easily program the hologram to give the impression that she was evil in order to fool Malak into thinking that she really was. One could also chalk it up to the fact that every bad guy in KotOR 1 was a thug bent on hurting as many people as possible, and such things might have been retconned had KotOR 2's tale of moral ambiguity after ambiguity been planned from the start.

 

As to how one would draw such a conclusion, there are many points in the dialogue (at least if you chose Revan to be a light sider) where it is suggested such when people are discussing Revan in game.

 

And as to Revan believing that only she was strong enough to lead the Republic against the True Sith, the fact is that she was probably right. Given all Canderous' descriptions of the situation in the Mandalorian wars, it seems clear to me that since only Revan could beat the Mandalorians, only Revan would be able to beat the True Sith. And there are two other factors at work: The Outer Rim. I remember something in Canderous' description of the wars about the Republic doing nothing while the Mandalorians attacked worlds on the Outer Rim that were not part of the Republic, and that gave them a strong position from which to launch an attack against the Republic. If such a thing were to happen with the True Sith, nothing would be able to stop them. And it does not seem all too unlikely. The True Sith could easily go after the Lesser Sith Empire first, and is the Republic going to rush to the defence of its hated enemy? Also, the Star Forge. The Star Forge is a factory fueled by the Dark Side of the force. The Star Forge could be instrumental in winning the war against the True Sith. Now, Revan could turn the location of the Star Forge over to the Republic, and the Republic is probably smart enough that they would use it. The problem would be the Jedi Council. A factory whose very walls reverberate with the Dark Side? Even if it was against the wishes of the Republic, it does not seem so implausible that the Jedi would take action to destroy such an evil creation. And if Revan wanted to stop the True Sith, she wouldn't allow that possibility. So, if Revan wants to save the Republic, or at least the people in it, what option is she left with? If she returns to the republic and tells all, the Order might destroy the Star Forge, and the Republic might not respond to the True Sith until it is too late. Even if she's at the head of the military, she might not be able to win. If she stands by and does nothing, well, that's just as bad. The only other option is to apply an external force to the Republic that will put her in a position to defeat the True Sith. And that was what she did.

 

Are there ifs, buts, and maybes in this theory? Most certainly. But at the very least, the question of Revan's evil is open to interpretation, and isn't a situation where one could catagorically state that Revan was good or was evil.

 

I see from review of the topic that my original comment wasn't quite as much a statement of opinion that in hindsight I'd like it to be. In my opinion, and according to my interpretation of the story, Revan was an anti-hero, not a villain.

[Zilod]

The hologram on Kashyyk is not evil, is efficent and necessary

what at your eyes seem evil is actually a necessity, you sacrifice something for a greater goal.

 

Probably there is a bit more complex and long discussion to do about that, expecially considering the choice to keep the power, but i think that even that should not be seen as a "pure evil" behavior, but as a necessary evil.

 

also we must not forget that when revan is in search of the starforge he alredy felt to DS, the motivation why he felt can be "noble" but anyway he is changing... he is still in control of himself and hisgoals are still intact but is no more the noble knight it was.

 

at least in my opinion

[Rex]

Well, I just typed a whole long opinion, but accidently pressed Ctrl V instead of Ctrl C, so now I'm too pissed to retype all of it, so bah.

[jaguars4ever]

I have to disagree. Malak may have been better than Sion and Nilihus but Kreia was much better than all of them put together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Meh. Call me someone who likes stereotypical villains, but I prefer the bad guys who capture you and then figure out some needlessly long death that is easily escapable, and the bad guys who precede every fight with a big long monologue of how great they are and how flawless their plan was. Kreia was a deep character, but in my opinion, the writers fell into a "too much of a good thing" trap with her. Of course, I might be speaking differently if the original ending was used, because that had quite a bit of Kreia Monologuing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exaclty! Malak was the villain classique! I mean he even did the "Muhaha" evil laugh while taunting you! What more could you want? :cool:

[Zeshin]

I was never overly fond of Malak. The villain with the goal to just destroy is rather dull. Give me one that has some other reason to be evil. Kreia is the kind of villain I like.

 

Though, Malak was indeed the Villain Classique. Of course I always found it amusing that he spoke his 'P's' with a remarkable amount of spittle for someone with no mouth.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

I love Malak evn more than I used to love Revan..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you are as clueless as he is.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

I see from review of the topic that my original comment wasn't quite as much a statement of opinion that in hindsight I'd like it to be.  In my opinion, and according to my interpretation of the story, Revan was an anti-hero, not a villain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not disagreeing about this. But more about your later arguments that Revan was not much like Anakin. Both started out good and fell through good intetions going wrong (among other things) and returned to the light (only if you play ls in k1, ofcourse).

[Darth Credulous]

Of course, because Revan's plan is derailed by Malak's treachery, we never really get to see how far he would have fallen had he continued being Darth Revan. Maybe he had a strong, determined will and a clear focussed goal - and maybe he would have proved Kreia's teachings true if he'd managed to hold on to those things until the end.

 

The fact that anyone who's played KOTOR 1 can turn Revan into the most villainous, murderous Sith Lord who ever was, though, suggests that yes it would have been possible for him to lose his will to the Dark Side. But, we'll never know.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Of course, because Revan's plan is derailed by Malak's treachery, we never really get to see how far he would have fallen had he continued being Darth Revan. Maybe he had a strong, determined will and a clear focussed goal - and maybe he would have proved Kreia's teachings true if he'd managed to hold on to those things until the end.

 

The fact that anyone who's played KOTOR 1 can turn Revan into the most villainous, murderous Sith Lord who ever was, though, suggests that yes it would have been possible for him to lose his will to the Dark Side. But, we'll never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His strong will power and charisma were his strongest points, which allowed him to resist the effect of the SF but, you are right, how long could he have maintained his balance?

[Reveilled]

I see from review of the topic that my original comment wasn't quite as much a statement of opinion that in hindsight I'd like it to be.  In my opinion, and according to my interpretation of the story, Revan was an anti-hero, not a villain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not disagreeing about this. But more about your later arguments that Revan was not much like Anakin. Both started out good and fell through good intetions going wrong (among other things) and returned to the light (only if you play ls in k1, ofcourse).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The thing is, though, where we do disagree is that I believe that Revan held true to his good intentions while still a Sith, while Vader became corrupted by the Dark Side. Your mileage may vary.

 

In a way, though, this is sorta beside the point as to whether or not I like the OT, because I saw the OT first, and try my best to forget I ever saw the two prequels. So, my memories of the OT stand alone, and without the prequels to give you that background info, Vader comes across as far more evil. And he monologues. You can't be a villain unless you monologue.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Vader comes across as far more evil.  And he monologues.  You can't be a villain unless you monologue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that is a crap argument because Revan never spoke! So he could have monalogued also, there is no way to know, until he is given a voice by LA.

[Reveilled]

Vader comes across as far more evil.  And he monologues.  You can't be a villain unless you monologue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that is a crap argument because Revan never spoke! So he could have monalogued also, there is no way to know, until he is given a voice by LA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that is a crap sarcasm detector you've got there, but I suppose one could argue that a classical villain would have monologed in the scene where the Jedi Strike team board Revan's vessel. But instead, she just raises her light saber and assumes a combat stance. Where would the fun be if the bad guy was like that? There wasn't even a "Mwhahahaha!", and you also need to have an evil laugh to be a good villain.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

He could have had a monologue and good evil laugh during that scene on Dantooine before they found the star map. But he had no voice to do it with.

[Reveilled]

He could have had a monologue and good evil laugh during that scene on Dantooine before they found the star map. But he had no voice to do it with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course she did. She just didn't use it. How does she communicate with people, otherwise?

[Darth Credulous]

How do you define 'a fall'? Is it the point where the Jedi ceases to be a Jedi in thought, or in action? Or is it the point when the Jedi finally admits it to him or herself? Anakin, at the end of Ep2, is no more fallen than Jolee Bindo ever was, for example, and yet the Council forgave what he did.

 

So when did Revan become 'fallen'? During his later training? When he defied the council? Qui-Gon defied them in the past, and no-one disputes his status as a Jedi. When he fought a war? At what point did he decide he had to declare war on the Republic?

 

Simply: where is the line drawn?

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

How do you define 'a fall'? Is it the point where the Jedi ceases to be a Jedi in thought, or in action? Or is it the point when the Jedi finally admits it to him or herself? Anakin, at the end of Ep2, is no more fallen than Jolee Bindo ever was, for example, and yet the Council forgave what he did.

 

So when did Revan become 'fallen'? During his later training? When he defied the council? Qui-Gon defied them in the past, and no-one disputes his status as a Jedi. When he fought a war? At what point did he decide he had to declare war on the Republic?

 

Simply: where is the line drawn?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's kind of a grey area. :D

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Revan certainly had rather major problems with destroying planets, and ultimately left the galaxy all on her lonesome to stop the True Sith, a battle that she would have probably know she wouldn't have come away from.  Vader was Evil to the core, all but a single spot a Good, all that was left on Anikin, that Luke latched onto.  Revan's evil, in my opinion, was only skin deep, and she was more of a Jedi than the Council was.

 

Why do people keep insisting that Revan was only trying to save the Republic? Revan was cold, heartless, and a Sith to his core. He cared nothing about the Republic government, He wanted power because he knew he could take it. He had no problem razing planets and killing innocents, as long as his goals were forwarded. The halogram on Kasyyk in KotOR 1 helps explain Revan's persona, thoughts, ideas, and ideals.

 

I do not understand how many people after KotOR 2 draw to the conclusion that Revan fell to the Darkside and attacked the Republic simply and only in order to save it from the "True Sith". That is not really what KotOR 2 describes. That was simply one reason. Revan believed only HE was strong enough to lead against the "True Sith", this arrogance bred a lust for power, and that lead him to the Darkside. Once fallen he would do anything to achieve his goals, why do you think he would be upset if Malak razed a planet? He razed many when he lead the invasion of the Republic. Revan and Vader were both fascists, believing that what they were doing was good for the whole. No person believes themselves to be evil, it is all point of view.

 

As for Malak, I believe he just didnt care about Revan's plans. Malak wanted power, and he didnt care how he got it, or what he had to do to get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Us people keep insisting that Revan was trying to save the Republic because of the dialogues in K2 silly . Did you not have the cutscene dialogue when the Disciple says that Revan was trying to unify, not conquer, the Republic against something. Plus you ask Kreia why did Revan fall and she says "Fall? Ah you presume much" she says that it is hard to differentiate a fall and a sacrifice. Revan sacrificed himself to the Darkside to protect the Republic, like someone said Revan was a patriot just like Goto in a way. And Kreia states that Revan's actions were always his own and not like someone possessed. True that Revan believes that that he is only the strong one that can stop the Ture Sith but look at what the Council did when the Mandalorians started attacking, they wanted to see the real threat, which there was one, but Revan saw things differently than the Council.

 

Your missing the point. They reported to Malak but Revan was still Dark Lord when Telos was destroyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's your evidence for this? I don't remember them ever saying something to that effect. And the fact that Carth does not bring up the fact that Revan was in command and therefore responsible for Malak and Saul's actions when it is pointed out to him that Malak, not Revan gave the order, is to me fairly strong evidence that the Destruction of Telos happened after Revan's capture.

 

Revan certainly had rather major problems with destroying planets, and ultimately left the galaxy all on her lonesome to stop the True Sith, a battle that she would have probably know she wouldn't have come away from.  Vader was Evil to the core, all but a single spot a Good, all that was left on Anikin, that Luke latched onto.  Revan's evil, in my opinion, was only skin deep, and she was more of a Jedi than the Council was.

 

Why do people keep insisting that Revan was only trying to save the Republic? Revan was cold, heartless, and a Sith to his core. He cared nothing about the Republic government, He wanted power because he knew he could take it. He had no problem razing planets and killing innocents, as long as his goals were forwarded. The halogram on Kasyyk in KotOR 1 helps explain Revan's persona, thoughts, ideas, and ideals.

 

I do not understand how many people after KotOR 2 draw to the conclusion that Revan fell to the Darkside and attacked the Republic simply and only in order to save it from the "True Sith". That is not really what KotOR 2 describes. That was simply one reason. Revan believed only HE was strong enough to lead against the "True Sith", this arrogance bred a lust for power, and that lead him to the Darkside. Once fallen he would do anything to achieve his goals, why do you think he would be upset if Malak razed a planet? He razed many when he lead the invasion of the Republic. Revan and Vader were both fascists, believing that what they were doing was good for the whole. No person believes themselves to be evil, it is all point of view.

 

As for Malak, I believe he just didnt care about Revan's plans. Malak wanted power, and he didnt care how he got it, or what he had to do to get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With regards to the hologram on Kashyyk, there is something to that argument, but there are some possibilities. Revan programmed that hologram in the presence of Malak. If Revan was only putting on the appearance of being evil, she could quite easily program the hologram to give the impression that she was evil in order to fool Malak into thinking that she really was. One could also chalk it up to the fact that every bad guy in KotOR 1 was a thug bent on hurting as many people as possible, and such things might have been retconned had KotOR 2's tale of moral ambiguity after ambiguity been planned from the start.

 

As to how one would draw such a conclusion, there are many points in the dialogue (at least if you chose Revan to be a light sider) where it is suggested such when people are discussing Revan in game.

 

And as to Revan believing that only she was strong enough to lead the Republic against the True Sith, the fact is that she was probably right. Given all Canderous' descriptions of the situation in the Mandalorian wars, it seems clear to me that since only Revan could beat the Mandalorians, only Revan would be able to beat the True Sith. And there are two other factors at work: The Outer Rim. I remember something in Canderous' description of the wars about the Republic doing nothing while the Mandalorians attacked worlds on the Outer Rim that were not part of the Republic, and that gave them a strong position from which to launch an attack against the Republic. If such a thing were to happen with the True Sith, nothing would be able to stop them. And it does not seem all too unlikely. The True Sith could easily go after the Lesser Sith Empire first, and is the Republic going to rush to the defence of its hated enemy? Also, the Star Forge. The Star Forge is a factory fueled by the Dark Side of the force. The Star Forge could be instrumental in winning the war against the True Sith. Now, Revan could turn the location of the Star Forge over to the Republic, and the Republic is probably smart enough that they would use it. The problem would be the Jedi Council. A factory whose very walls reverberate with the Dark Side? Even if it was against the wishes of the Republic, it does not seem so implausible that the Jedi would take action to destroy such an evil creation. And if Revan wanted to stop the True Sith, she wouldn't allow that possibility. So, if Revan wants to save the Republic, or at least the people in it, what option is she left with? If she returns to the republic and tells all, the Order might destroy the Star Forge, and the Republic might not respond to the True Sith until it is too late. Even if she's at the head of the military, she might not be able to win. If she stands by and does nothing, well, that's just as bad. The only other option is to apply an external force to the Republic that will put her in a position to defeat the True Sith. And that was what she did.

 

Are there ifs, buts, and maybes in this theory? Most certainly. But at the very least, the question of Revan's evil is open to interpretation, and isn't a situation where one could catagorically state that Revan was good or was evil.

 

I see from review of the topic that my original comment wasn't quite as much a statement of opinion that in hindsight I'd like it to be. In my opinion, and according to my interpretation of the story, Revan was an anti-hero, not a villain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree with basically everything you said.

 

Of course, because Revan's plan is derailed by Malak's treachery, we never really get to see how far he would have fallen had he continued being Darth Revan. Maybe he had a strong, determined will and a clear focussed goal - and maybe he would have proved Kreia's teachings true if he'd managed to hold on to those things until the end.

 

The fact that anyone who's played KOTOR 1 can turn Revan into the most villainous, murderous Sith Lord who ever was, though, suggests that yes it would have been possible for him to lose his will to the Dark Side. But, we'll never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is true. Revan turned to save the Republic but would he have been strong enough to turn from the DS I doubt it. He probably would have set himself up like the Emperor did. I think Revan didn't care much for those in the Republic but the Republic itself and wanted that protected and that's why he killed so many people.

 

How do you define 'a fall'? Is it the point where the Jedi ceases to be a Jedi in thought, or in action? Or is it the point when the Jedi finally admits it to him or herself? Anakin, at the end of Ep2, is no more fallen than Jolee Bindo ever was, for example, and yet the Council forgave what he did.

 

So when did Revan become 'fallen'? During his later training? When he defied the council? Qui-Gon defied them in the past, and no-one disputes his status as a Jedi. When he fought a war? At what point did he decide he had to declare war on the Republic?

 

Simply: where is the line drawn?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good question. I believe a "fall" is defined by the Jedi Council, any of those that do not abide by the Code has fallen but their definition is strict and arrogant because those outside the Order probably know more of what a fall is. For example the Council thinks that love can cause you to fall though they never experienced it to know but Jolee did. That is why Jolee's beliefs are more understandable than the Council because it is less strict.

 

I believe that when Revan discovered the first Star Map on Dantooine is when he started to fall. Although it could have been the teachings of the Order like the Disciple refers to all the time. It is true that Qui Gon often defied the Council but that was then and in this time the Council seems more strict.