When KOTOR was created, was the TSL story in mind?

[Saint]

I think it is pretty cool that we actually have the opportunity to post our thoughts about these games on here. Honestly everyone is totally entitled to their own opinions - everyone has different aspects of any experience that they especially savour. For some obviously that savour is in Revan, or more accurately it is in BEING Revan - playing this fabled, legendary Sith Lord / Jedi Master - for these it obviously would have been best for K2 to actually be playing Revan as well - this would probably have made it the most enjoyable experience for them possible.

 

For others we really enjoyed the aspect of making our own character - starting from scratch and making the character as much of US as possible. For me - I am a writer - as a writer I spend more time on my characters than anything else, so the allure with KOTOR is to write my characters and make it my own.

 

Having said that, it may be interesting to discuss this topic not so much from the perspective of our own opinions but more from the perspective of what the KOTOR franchise is really about - not just the story or who the story is about, but the gameplay mechanics, the themes and the overall experience of KOTOR. I think that more than anything else will determine what the actual devs do with K3. Remember its called "Knights" (plural) of the Old Republic, which suggests that the series is not meant to be focused only one individual but a group of individuals.

 

And I know there is the possibility that "Knights" refers to all of the Jedi you meet or have in your party throughout the game, but I really think this refers to your main characters. After all, Episode 6 was called "Return of the Jedi", and not "Return of the Jedi and also a story about that smuggler and the princess and also the two droids and the Sith Lords.. oh and also something about a Wookie"

[Muad'Dib]

I agree completely with you Saint. It's great to be able to post opposing point of views like this and discuss it out without retorting to namecalling and petty insults (Unlike with some people in the general thread).

 

I suppose one of the main reasons why I want the story to be continued from these perspectives is because of the empty feeling of non-accomplishment I get at the end of K2. This isn't something strict to K2, I get that in all open ended games. I feel there's something left to do, like the game was left unfinished for me, in the same fashion as if I'd seen two of the SW OT but never saw the third. Since I'm not bothered at all by the gameplay aspect of retorting my character back to level 1 or 5, 6 whatever, I just don't look into gameplay as a concern for me that is. I can understand very well how people would like to see new things and new characters, but for me I found the characters of the previous two games (Or most of them) so well written and so interesting I really want to see how these characters evolve as exactly that as characters in the same fashion I would in a sequel to a book or movie. Unlike other game types such as shooters or strategy or whatever, what has always interested me most about RPGs is the story and the characters. Since I feel the story of the previous two games and their respective protagonists is not finished, I want to see it finished, a sort of conclusion to the journey and experiences I've had during the course of the past two games.

 

I'm not unaware of the problems due to the d20 system, the level progression of Revan to 20 and Exile to...whatever the heck Exile can reach. I just am willing to sacrifice the view I have of ither as a Master or uber-being in order for the opportunity to continue to explore them as people and thier companions and wherever their journey takes them.

 

I guess it's all about what you prefer in your game. Some people value more the gameplay and style of RPG while others value more the storyline and characters within, I guess that's why some people tend not to want to let go their former characters, they were more interested in that character and the story surrounding it than the gameplay mechanics involved inan RPG system.

 

Naturally I wish there was a middle ground to be reached. Like having 3 campaigns one with Revan, one with Exile and one with a new guy. That way everyone would be happy. Or if you play a portion of the game with a new guy until reaching Revan/Exile and then have the choice to switch protagonists to one of the older ones if you so want. But that's just a dream and far too much to ask of any developer.

 

Whatever choices are made for K3, I'm confident in the end I'll appreciate it. If Obsidian is to do K3 then I have absolute faith in them, as I do with Bioware should they decide to retake the reigns...a joint venture wouldn't be bad I think, as each game has it's own unique strengths.

 

As far of the title Return of the Jedi, I've always felt the title signifies the return of the Jedi as a group or generalization to the galaxy, not that it refers to Luke specifically. Sure there were other focuses in the movies such as Han and Leia, although you have to admit those characters were still basically in the same group as Luke, they didn't get movies specifically for them by themselves. I apply that here as well.

 

Oh well we'll see what they come up with for K3. I'm a little worried though about what these True Sith will turn out to be to be honest. I like the Sith the way they're presented in the movies, further detaching them from that leaves me skeptical.

[Darth Dan]

Maybe the main PC could be Vandar...then everyone would be happy.

[Saint]

I've been thinking over the weekend about what I think either Muad'Dib or KingofThieves said about how it doesn't work to change perspectives throughout the story and gave the movies as an example - how it doesn't switch from Luke's movie to Han's movie, etc. The realization that I came to is that in fact the movies do switch their perspectives quite dramatically, especially looking at it from the context of a video game.

 

First, you need to look at the movies starting from the beginng (Episode 1) to Episode 6 - now if , as has been said by many people, KOTOR is Revan's story, then whose story is the movies? Clearly the Star Wars movies are the story of the chosen one - i.e. Anakin - they begin and end with him and follow his life to its conclusion. The first movie starts from the time he first got involved with the Jedi and the last movie ends with his death.

 

Stars Wars Episodes 1 - 6 are clearly the story of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. The weird thing is that he isn't the main character or the protagonist in MOST of those movies (in fact only so far in one of them). So let's take a look at how EPs 1-6 would translate into an RPG style video game.

 

Episode 1:

Main Character PC - Qui-Gon Jinn and/or Obi-Wan Kenobi

Supporting Crew - Amidala, C3PO, R2D2, Young Anakin and Jar-Jar Binks

Villain: Dath Maul

Supporting / Indirect Villain: Darth Sidious / Palpatine

 

Episode 2:

Main Character PC - Obi-Wan Kenobi and/or Anakin Skywalker

Supporting Crew - Amidala, The Droids

Villains: Darth Tyrannus, Jango Fett

Supporting / Indirect Villain: Darth Sidious / Palpatine

 

Episode 3:

Main Character PC - Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) and/or Obi-Wan Kenobi

Supporting Crew - Amidala, Droids, some other Jedi Possibly

Entry Level Villain: Darth Tyrannus

Main Villains / Allies (depending on POV): Darth Sidious / Palpatine, Yoda, Mace Windu.

 

Episode 4:

Main Character PC - Luke Skywalker

Supporting Crew - Obi-Wan Kenobi, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Princess Leia, The Droids

Villain: Darth Vader (Anakin), Grand Moff Tarkin, The Death Star

Indirect Villain: The Emperor (Darth Sidious / Palpatine)

 

Episode 5:

Main Character PC - Luke Skywalker

Supporting Crew - Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia, Droids, Yoda

Villain: Darth Vader, Boba Fett

Indirect Villain: The Emperor (Darth Sidious / Palpatine)

 

Episode 6:

Main Character PC - Luke Skywalker

Supporting Crew - Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia, Droids

Villains: Darth Vader, The Emperor, Jabba the Hutt

 

******

 

Overall there are only 2 characters who actually appear in every single episode (not counting force ghosts): Anakin Skywalker, the Overall Story Protagonist, and Palpatine, the overall Story Villain.

 

You would only really play as Anakin 2 out of 6 times and even in those 2 occasions he would be sharing play time about 50/50 with Obi-Wan. And Palpatine really wouldn't be the main villain in the individual episodes until the very end of Ep 6. The perspectives are shifting around like crazy but the story still encompasses the life of Anakin Skywalker.

[DSLuke]

Palpatine doesn't even appear in ANH.

 

As far as I can remember there was some simple reference to the emperor.

[Muad'Dib]

Saint I fully get what you're saying but I think you might have misinterpreted what I meant. If we are looking at the KotOR games as a potential trilogy, then we have to examine each movie trilogy in of itself, not the entire anthology of the six films.

 

The comments I've made about the movies not changing perspective I understand remian pretty accurate. While Anakin is the central figure of the entire SW storyline, you didn't even know this up until Episode 1 rolled out. As far as everyone knew from the OT, SW was Luke's story.

 

I agree with you completely that the movies share perspectives between the main characters whether Luke, Han and Leia in the OT or Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme in the PT. That's not what I meant, what I mean is while each can have their own perspective or moments of fucos in the films, the films never select one focus over another.

 

In other words, the movies never have 1 movie entirely from Anakin's perspective then another entirely from Obi-Wan's, etc. They always jump from one to the other within the same movie and the group is oftentimes more together than apart.

 

This is different from the games, because K1 was entirely about Revan while K2 was entirely from the perspective of the Exile, they have an entire videogame to themselves.

 

If you put a new PC come in then you'd have a completely unrelated third perspective not shared in the first two games. As it stands the pov of the two main characters isn't shared, it's focused on that specific character, in fact the two protagonists haven't even shared the same screen even once.

 

I finished K2 last night and every conversation and development in the game just reinforced to me even more that Revan is the most important character in the series. Since this is Revan's quest and fight, and since K2 made the Exile a significant piece of this quest, I'd rather see the story be finalized from their points of view. Not because I'm thinking of level caps or gameplay issues or how easy the game will be (Let's face it, the games are already extremely easy even in difficult setting), I mean strictly from the storyline perspective. Don't show me part of the story with one character, say he's the most important one and then shuffle him to the back to a cameo or one simple moment of conversation that lets me know how his story ends.

 

Applying to the games the comparison to the movies you've just made, the way I see K3 working is by having both the Exile and Revan as protagonists at the same time, except that the game switches from their points of view from time to time. I'd rather have one LS/DS campaign from Revan's pov, one from the Exile, and if you really still want a new PC then intoduce a third character with his own campaign.

 

Another way to do it is to begin K3 with a new PC, then some point in the game you meet up with Revan or Exile. You then have the ability to change PCs if you want; if you choose to continue the game as Revan or Exile then the new PC sacrifices himself/herself to save Revan/Exile and then your selected abilities, classes etc is pased onto the Revan/Exile character and you continue from there, if you choose to continue playing as the new PC then you see the rest of the story through into the end.

 

In any case, I'm certain the devs will simply introduce a new character anyway as much as any of us may or may not like it, it's a lot more simple to just start over with a new guy than having to continue an original character's story and elaborate a reason why this old PC is no longer as strong as he was before or whatever.

 

What's funny is since Exile "lost" his/her connection to the Force while wandering the Unknown Regions, they could have just used Revan as the protagonist of K2 from the beginning as that's what Revan was doing anyway and he might have lost his/her connection to the Force in exactly the same way. And seeing the confrontation between Revan and Kreia, that would have been interesting. We just have to wait for K3 to see where they take the series, hopefully it will not be another open-ended disappointment that will then have to rely on K4 in order to end.