Non linear character development

[grayjo]

I have had in idea for a while, probably one that everyone has had at some point as dismissed as stupid or useless... anyways, it involes non linear charcter development.

 

I propose, that it would be good in a game to take direct control of character development from the player, and (kinda) put it in the hands of the PC.

 

It would mean no leveling up, but having all the stats represnted by experience. And you gain stat exp for doing something related to that stat.

 

Fo example, Fighting. Say for fighting you use strength and dexterity mostly, with a little intellegence. Just by fighting you would go up some strength, dexerity and little bit of int. And these stats could be incorporated back into the combat itself, etc.

 

This form of character progression is more realistic than die based system becasue you dont get to decide how you impove by selecting them at a screen, you get better at what you do. This system is kind of like a "practice makes perfect" setup.

 

i've had this idea for a while, and i think fable might now be using a version of it... but i never played it so i don;t now fo sure. I just think that levelups are wrong. instead of getting progressivle better over time, you jump, from level to level, sometimes getting better at thing you have never even attempted before.

 

Just an idea

[mkreku]

Morrowind and Wasteland uses different systems like this. In Morrowind it was very easily abused, making people get superstrong characters in no-time and horribly unbalancing the game.

 

The Wasteland system though.. If someone could take a look at that and make a modern version of it, I'd love it. That system rocked.

[grayjo]

I didn't know that... don't you just hate it when you come up with an idea, only to have it been already done?

 

How about a non-linear magic magic system? has it been done before too?

[EnderAndrew]

Actually, the first time I personally saw this system was with Final Fantasy II.

[grayjo]

Which FF2? jap or America, becasue i have always remembered levels in FF... all the ones i have played that is...

[EnderAndrew]

There are two Final Fantasy II's depending on how you look at it. The proper FFII was released in Japan only, but a few people translated it, and released it in the states on the NES. The American FFII was actually FFIV, on the SNES.

 

FFII was also redone on the Playstation in Final Fatasy Origins, and now just last week rereleased with FFI on the Game Boy Advance with new dungeons, features, etc.

 

It's called Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls.

[grayjo]

Ok, so this final fantasy had no levels? Interesting.

 

Ok, so how about non linear magic?

 

A system where you are shown your spell book, and you have to draw a line on it, and the shape of the line determines the effects of the spell, it's range, damage modifiers etc. I think this would be good for a MMORPG, becasue then ppl could trade spells.

 

It wuld have to work something like a screen with lots of boxes, and which boxes in which order the line passes though the boxes determines the spell to be cast

[EnderAndrew]

Yep.

 

The more you get hurt (not on purpose), the more HP you gain.

The more MP required to kill a foe, the more MP you get.

The more and more you use a certain magic, the higher in level it becomes.

The more and more you use a certain weapon class, the better you use that weapon.

[grayjo]

Yep sounds like my idea...

 

This always happens to me, if i come up with a good idea, be it for a game or like an invention, it heas either already been done, or it is done soon after

[EnderAndrew]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I think when used properly it can be a good system.

 

Personally, I really like applying character points rather than leveling up or raising things with practice.

[Craigboy2]

I have had in idea for a while, probably one that everyone has had at some point as dismissed as stupid or useless... anyways, it involes non linear charcter development.

 

I propose, that it would be good in a game to take direct control of character development from the player, and  (kinda) put it in the hands of the PC.

 

It would mean no leveling up, but having all the stats represnted by experience. And you gain stat exp for doing something related to that stat.

 

Fo example, Fighting. Say for fighting you use strength and dexterity mostly, with a little intellegence. Just by fighting you would go up some strength, dexerity and little bit of int. And these stats could be incorporated back into the combat itself, etc.

 

This form of character progression is more realistic than die based system becasue you dont get to decide how you impove by selecting them at a screen, you get better at what you do. This system is kind of like a "practice makes perfect" setup.

 

i've had this idea for a while, and i think fable might now be using a version of it... but i never played it so i don;t now fo sure. I just think that levelups are wrong. instead of getting progressivle better over time, you jump, from level to level, sometimes getting better at thing you have never even attempted before.

 

Just an idea

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Runescape

[EnderAndrew]

Most MMORPGs seem to have this implemented on some level.

[Nartwak]

The more you get hurt (not on purpose), the more HP you gain.

Oh yes on purpose. I usually had my characters flog themselves quite thoroughly for substantive HP gains.

[EnderAndrew]

I self-flog for entirely different purposes.

[Nartwak]

Of course. It's good nonlinear character development.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yep.

 

The more you get hurt (not on purpose), the more HP you gain.

The more MP required to kill a foe, the more MP you get.

The more and more you use a certain magic, the higher in level it becomes.

The more and more you use a certain weapon class, the better you use that weapon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never liked it.

 

It leads to having to do artificial things like casting spells over and over when you really dont need to, or having to trigger extra encounters just for weapon training.

 

By the time I got to the end only a fraction of my spells were higher than level 1.

 

Oddly enough I was going to ask if Sqaure invented learn by doing because I noticed the date on Dawn of Souls. Anyone know any learn by doing games that pre date it ?

[mkreku]

Both Wasteland and Final Fantasy came out in 1987, but I have no idea which game was first. I don't know any "learn by doing"-games before that.

[EnderAndrew]

Final Fantasy II was the first to use the system, so Wasteland wins that distinction. They may have been the first game to use such a system.

 

Final Fantasy II - 12/17/88

[grayjo]

Yep.

 

The more you get hurt (not on purpose), the more HP you gain.

The more MP required to kill a foe, the more MP you get.

The more and more you use a certain magic, the higher in level it becomes.

The more and more you use a certain weapon class, the better you use that weapon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never liked it.

 

It leads to having to do artificial things like casting spells over and over when you really dont need to, or having to trigger extra encounters just for weapon training.

 

By the time I got to the end only a fraction of my spells were higher than level 1.

 

Oddly enough I was going to ask if Sqaure invented learn by doing because I noticed the date on Dawn of Souls. Anyone know any learn by doing games that pre date it ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More realistic though....

 

To get good at something in real life you have to PRACTCE PRACTICE PRACTICE...

 

I tohught the idea of RPGs was to try to immerse yourself in a world, and how can that be realistically done with silly things like a point system?

 

"Wow, i just killed 5000 baddies.... I think i'll get better at lockpicking..."

 

or in FF's case,

 

"I just hacked to death loads of monsters.... why is my magic skill so low?"

"did you use magic?"

"no, why?"

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

More realistic though....

 

To get good at something in real life you have to PRACTCE PRACTICE PRACTICE...

 

I tohught the idea of RPGs was to try to immerse yourself in a world, and how can that be realistically done with silly things like a point system?

 

"Wow, i just killed 5000 baddies.... I think i'll get better at lockpicking..."

 

or in FF's case,

 

"I just hacked to death loads of monsters.... why is my magic skill so low?"

"did you use magic?"

"no, why?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not if it required doing unreastic things to improve.

[EnderAndrew]

Morrowind uses a system where repeating tasks increases your skills. There are no character points, and no experience points. However, I find the grinding to raise skills to be the worst part of Morrowind. I've been replaying the game, and it's decent when it's not boring me to tears.

[Iyanden]

didn't ultima 7 have a system like that? and speaking of ultima 7, i really like how they did the magic system in that game. like, you had to go collect mushrooms and stuff (components to a spell) to make a spell which you can later use... if only they would update that game and make it more of an rpg instead of an adventure game...

[EnderAndrew]

Ultima 8 had a system where attributes were raised through repetition. It didn't have skills though.

[Jad'en]

Morrowind uses a system where repeating tasks increases your skills.  There are no character points, and no experience points.  However, I find the grinding to raise skills to be the worst part of Morrowind.  I've been replaying the game, and it's decent when it's not boring me to tears.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grinding in any game is a fun killer

[grayjo]

I feel the same about getting exp in othe FF games, runing around to spawn a monster, fight monster, kill monster, rinse and repeat.

 

This is not an issue of whether your skill improve by levels or practice, this is an issue wiht the amount of fighting needed to go up in levels/stats

 

i think it is unrealisitc to fight a gazillion creatures and have magic attack, magic defence, offence, defence and whatever go up if you just hit them with a sword.

 

I would personally prever to go up 10 in offence than 5 in offence and 5 in magic, if i don't use magic.

 

This system would only work if it just develops what you do. Sure is want a char that is great at everything, you eill have to grind, but the goals of most RPGs is not to become the best at everything, its to play though the story.

 

If you play though, doing what you do best, you should be right.