Developing and Crunch Time

[EnderAndrew]

I've been reading some horror stories in regards to EA as of late. And I know it's the forum policy on these forums not to bash other companies.

 

So I will not decry EA as being inhuman money-grubbers. Instead, I merely point to the accusations surrounding EA and ask a question.

 

I'm pursuing a degree and dreaming of designing games for a living. Is this the industry norm to an extent?

 

I've always heard that crunch time meant mandatory long hours. I can live with that. Yet, these EA stories make it sound like designers are underpaid monkeys being worked like slaves.

 

The developers here seem to enjoy their jobs, which is always a nice perk. But do you feel that the industry as a whole (without naming names) has economic problems where we've come to expect certain products without putting forth the money to pay for the requisite man hours?

 

Games certainly have more complexity today than when Pong game out, yet game prices haven't really skyrocketed over the past 30 years, especially given inflation. We pay the same, and get much nicer games today.

 

Where exactly does the rubber meet the road? Are we running into circumstances where as consumers in a market overtly saturated with new games, developers are forced to get the extra mile for the same wage as before?

 

Lastly, do you feel that programs like Steam are subversive to the industry, or a means to get more money directly to the designer to put out quality games?

 

Edit: info on some of the recent EA claims for purely referential purposes.

 

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/

[Craigboy2]

I really hope Bioware and Obsidian never become like that.

[EnderAndrew]

I hope Obsidian never gets bought out. There was a rumor last year that Microsith was talking about buying out Bioware.

 

EA bought out some of my favorite companies and then laid off most of the staff.

[TentamusDarkblade]

what i've heard, take it or leave it, is that Bioware signed a sxclusivity deal with MS. MS throws lots of money at Bioware, Bioware only releases on PC and xbox.

 

As far as crunch times go, there not as bad at some places, worse at others. Crunch time at MS is pretty bad, with long hours, insane requests, and no clear end in sight. the upside is MS pays pretty well. I work at Monolith and we're currently in Crunchmode now. It's no where near as bad as i had at MS or what i've read of EA. Sure, the hours are long, but the pay is good and everyone is there because they want to make a good game.

 

So it really boils down to where you end up working at. There are good dev houses and bad dev houses. I'm sure through your online contacts that you'd be able to get the inside scoop about a place if you were going to try for a job there.

[EnderAndrew]

Do you mind if I ask what you're currently working on?

[Grandpa]

There was a rumor last year that Microsith was talking about buying out Bioware.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Easy, now. Careful of the corporate references. Remember In*ptplay? and all the nasty wrist-slapping?

 

I read the forum created by that EA spouse's open letter. Pretty interesting, from a sweatshop view point. I would have to think that if all of those code monkeys decided to strike for a couple three day the suits would have to relent a bit. After all, you can't replace an entire team midway through a project and expect to remain remotely on schedule.

[EnderAndrew]

Jobs aren't easy to come by in California. Labor conditions aren't always the same out there. A buddy of mine works for a company that creates stages to measure minute measurements, to make processors and the like.

 

He makes about 60k a year, but works like a slave for it. And if he complains, he will be replaced.

 

The EA Spouse is basically claiming they were working over 60 hours and don't really make that much. Personally, if they're making less than 35k-40k, it's really hard to justify those hours for skilled labor in any state.

[Aaron Contreras]

You can expect to work longer hours for less pay. How many hours longer and how much less pay depends upon the company.

 

I worked an average of around 50-60 hours a week for about five months on my last project. There was also about three weeks in there where most of us took 8 hours off a day to sleep, shower and change clothes. Most developers on the project put *way* more time in than I did.

 

If you want to make good money and just work 40 hours a week the game industry probably won't have a lot to offer you. I couldn't imagine working these hours if I had a kid.

[Georg Zoeller]

what i've heard, take it or leave it, is that Bioware signed a sxclusivity deal with MS.  MS throws lots of money at Bioware, Bioware only releases on PC and xbox.

 

A lot of people hear a lot of things. In fact, if you take a room full of monkeys, I'm sure you will eventually get a Lord of the Rings audiobook out of that.

 

There was a rumor last year that Microsith was talking about buying out Bioware.

This rumour comes up *every* year, right before E3. That certainly helps its credibility. google

 

As for the topic - crunch is a reality in the industry, I doubt you will find a place without it. The question is how much, how much of it is part of the system and schedule from the start and how neccessary it is. At a startup studio, doing the first few projects, expect lot's of crunch (but that's the same in every industry when you start a new venture, after all you also build infrastructure along the way and you want to leave an excellent first impression on the market) - as an established developer, perpetual crunch for the length of the project, as it seems to be be the case in some places, is unacceptable

 

The IDGA's quality of life page has several good resources that should allow you to get a picture

 

http://www.igda.org/qol/open_letter.php

http://www.igda.org/qol/

[TentamusDarkblade]

Do you mind if I ask what you're currently working on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Matrix Online. And Previously i was working on Fable over at MS.

[EnderAndrew]

I'm not a fan of the MMO scene in general, but the Matrix Online does look promising. I'm one of four people that actually enjoyed the full Matrix trilogy (though Revolutions needs some serious editting work).

 

I rather dig the concept of swapping out skill chips, and trading them with other players.

 

I still probably won't devote the time to invest in a MMO title, but I will be watching the Matrix Online and trying to follow the world's metaplots.

[Craigboy2]

Devs need a worker union, i would like to see what the big man at EA would do if all the devs quit.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Devs need a worker union

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Thats what Ive been saying ever since the scandal at EA became known. In todays cutthroat labor market, a worker without the support of a union is only waiting to be ground to dust in the corporate machinery.

 

As it is now, the publishers holds all the cards and dictates all the terms. The kind of work hours common in the computing industry bears a high resemblance 19th centry industrialism.

 

 

Even if you work for a good company with a humane work enviroment, its important to join in the struggle to support your less fortunate fellows.

[Hunter]

Devs need a worker union, i would like to see what the big man at EA would do if all the devs quit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'd probably just hire new devs. Theres a surplus of people who want to break in to the gamming industry. Many of them would be willing to take a job for a couple years, even if they knew it was going to be horrible hours, just to get the experience on their resume.

 

A union sound like a good idea, but I think in practice it would be very bad. I'm trying to imagine how many of the smaller companies would fold if a union prevented them from shipping products before key times like Christmas.

 

Crunch time will probably always exists. I've never seen a project that didn't have a crunch time. Well managed projects will ussually have a reasonable crunch at the end. A poorly managed project will tend to have a worse crunch time. But the reality is that things go wrong sometimes (always) and the result is crunching to get the project done on time.

[Diamond]

Devs need a worker union, i would like to see what the big man at EA would do if all the devs quit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'd probably just hire new devs. Theres a surplus of people who want to break in to the gamming industry. Many of them would be willing to take a job for a couple years, even if they knew it was going to be horrible hours, just to get the experience on their resume.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the middle of the project? No, they wouldn't afford that.

But he problem here is that ALL of them will say 'NO' at the same time.

[t3h-v]

union is not really a solution to the problem, with a union you get a ****load of other problems. All you need is for people to realize that they can run good business, obey the laws, and keep the workers happy... and still produce hit games and make money.

 

Then again there's always the option of freelancing, if you're into content creation theres plenty of contract houses that do art, sound and level design exclusively, coding and gamedesign could be pretty rough to get around without working for a company though.

 

Seriously this industry is not that great, and there's always options.

[EnderAndrew]

What about self-publishing?

 

What about Steam? It basically cuts publishers out of the picture.

[Gorth]

What about self-publishing?

 

What about Steam?  It basically cuts publishers out of the picture.

 

Self publishing is a bit like carrying all your eggs in one basket...

 

If you create a hit, your walls will be covered with greenbacks. It you flop, you might be completely out of business. It's pretty much what a publisher do, they gamble and put the money up front. If you want to be your own publisher, you also need to consider, where does the money come from to finance your projects, take mortgages or wait a title or five until you might be able to publish smaller titles yourself ? Interplay and Bethesda are two examples of how it can turn out for a company that is both publisher and developer

 

Just curious.

[t3h-v]

steam has to get much better before its useble, hell even for HL2 it seems to be more of an obstacle than a usefull tool. its a good idea on paper, but it'll be awhile till all the problems with it are fixed and it works as intented.

 

self publishing is difficult nowadays, you still need money for development, the "we'll pay you if this sells" type of policy will not attract alot of developers, especially good ones. And the distributing takes alot of work, publishers take care of all that, but if you try to do it all yourself you'll find that you have to go through alot of **** just to put the game out there, even if the box is empty.

 

Internet is cool, you could distribute things on the internet, hell thats how id got where they are at, thats where steam comes in again as pretty much the ultimate distribution medium, its not perfect, but it kinda sorta works.

 

BUT you still have to make the game, which is pretty much your main battle, just to get it done, takes alot of effort to make a game. Development is the main problem not distribution, although thats difficult too, all in all there are alot of difficulties associated with making and distributing games, and it takes alot of people to get things done, and you need good capable people to guide the game every step of the way to make things work.

[Hunter]

Devs need a worker union, i would like to see what the big man at EA would do if all the devs quit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'd probably just hire new devs. Theres a surplus of people who want to break in to the gamming industry. Many of them would be willing to take a job for a couple years, even if they knew it was going to be horrible hours, just to get the experience on their resume.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the middle of the project? No, they wouldn't afford that.

But he problem here is that ALL of them will say 'NO' at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this situation causes smaller companies to fold. There are penalties for missing milestones and shipdates.

A union might make more sense for larger companies. I don't know if I'd want to pay union dues and have to worry about being forced to strike though. I'd rather be able to make my own decisions on such matters.

[Diamond]

In the middle of the project? No, they wouldn't afford that.

But he problem here is that ALL of them will say 'NO' at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this situation causes smaller companies to fold. There are penalties for missing milestones and shipdates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Initial topic was about big companies with draconic work conditions (EA). I guess, smaller companies _tend_ to care more about their employees. If devs on some EA project say 'I quit!' all at the same time, management will be forced to negotiate, but it is the main problem to say 'I quit!' at the same time - one or two persons can get replaced, replacing people from the whole project will bring more expenses, rather than paying more/cutting down work hours to 40-50.

[EnderAndrew]

EA has many divisions. And they've never had any qualms just stopping development after 2-3 years on a project and just taking a loss. They're big enough that it doesn't phase them. If one dev, or one team walked, they'd either hire to replace them, or close the project.

 

With Ultima Online 2, two different times they vested three years of man-hours and dollars into the project and completly junked it twice without batting an eye.

[Hunter]

In the middle of the project? No, they wouldn't afford that.

But he problem here is that ALL of them will say 'NO' at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this situation causes smaller companies to fold. There are penalties for missing milestones and shipdates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Initial topic was about big companies with draconic work conditions (EA). I guess, smaller companies _tend_ to care more about their employees. If devs on some EA project say 'I quit!' all at the same time, management will be forced to negotiate, but it is the main problem to say 'I quit!' at the same time - one or two persons can get replaced, replacing people from the whole project will bring more expenses, rather than paying more/cutting down work hours to 40-50.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, focusing on big companies.

 

I think I agree with EnderWiggin. A large company has the finances to the decision that a group of employees striking could be made example of. Whether or not they would want to go this route is another thing. I just think that seeing as it is hard enough to get into the gaming industry in the first place, would you want to risk your job? I have to admit though that I'm somewhat biased against unions.

 

One thing that I find interesting is that while interviewing at EA I got the sense that projects were much more strictly structured than other places, which should cause less crunch time. The industry in general is still a bit fast and loose when creating products. As the process for creating games matures, projects should start running more smoothly. (I'm working on a Master's in software engineering, so my heads full of all kinds of foolishness right now )

[EnderAndrew]

College will do that to people.

 

I hope you find a good job.