Speculation

[junior]

 

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My sense throughout all of KotOR 1 was that the Sith you were fighting were merely "pretenders" to the title. They went out, fought the Mandalorians, and then announced they were Sith and were going to attack the Republic. Sure, they had similarities in their ideologies, but that doesn't necessarily make them the heirs to the Sith ideology. They're pretenders that found and adopted Sith teachings to further their own ends, but that's it. Neo-Sith, perhaps, but not the genuine article.

 

My take on the comments at the end of KotOR2 is that the genuine article is still out there. The guys that have been passing down their traditions, teachings, and techniques for generations are still hiding out there. And they still hold a grudge from the last time they fought the Jedi.

 

I suppose the best analogy would involve this hypothetical. Fast forward the time line to 20 years before the prequels. Darth Sidious, true heir to the Sith traditions, has finally managed to succeed his master, and has started a promising career in politics (no, I don't know what Palpatine's time table was, and I'm making this up as I go along). Meanwhile, assume a splinter faction of Jedi has become upset with the teachings of the Jedi order, and has adopted some ancient Sith teachings and started calling themselves "Sith" while carrying on a war against the Jedi order.

 

Are the new guys Sith? Arguably, since they're governed by ancient Sith principles. But they're not the "Real Sith". The "Real Sith" is Sidious, who is the true heir to the ancient teachings passed down for millenia, and carries a grudge that's been around for a long, long, long time.

 

Carrying that analogy to the Sith we've seen to date, Revan and his followers (including the villians in KotOR2) are like the splinter faction in my analogy. They're upset with the Jedi order, and they've uncovered some ancient Sith traditions. So they call themselves Sith. But the guys who have been Sith for the last millenia are still hiding out there, and they're the "Real" Sith.

 

 

As for Revan's goals - we don't have enough information at this point. There's enough to suggest that of the Revan/Malak pair, Revan was the brains of the operation and Malak was merely someone who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Its possible that Revan's trip to the ruins of Dantooine (where you first get hints of the Star Forge in KotOR 1) tipped him off to the presence of something beyond the rim. Or its possible that it merely tipped him off to the Star Forge.

 

If he did know something was lurking out there, I suspect that he didn't share that information with Malak. Revan's intent probably would have been to sit on it until he had some definite ideas of what he was up against (to avoid alerting the lurkers). And once the civil war started, he wouldn't have been able to announce that his whole plan was to unite the Republic behind him to go engage in a war in a distant place. His Sith "followers" were there for power, not to save the known galaxy. But that's speculation, as we don't know how much he knew, or whether he only managed to piece some of it together afterwards.

 

Incidentally, I think the appearence of Bastila in the Sith Cave sequence puts an interesting spin on things. Her presence there is explained as that of someone who wanted to join, even if she didn't actually do so. Its possible that she had some similiarities with Atris. We know that Atris seemed to particularly admire the Exile before he left, but decided to follow the Council's edict. We also know that part of her hatred of the Exile is jealousy because the Exile was able to turn his back on the council and follow Revan while Atris couldn't bring herself to do so. Its possible that Bastila had a similar attitude toward Revan, although presumeably she didn't feel the same sense of betrayel (or at least not to the same degree). This would add additional impetus for her to 1.) join the team that went after Revan, 2.) give an additional reason for the bond to develop, and 3.) provide further reasons for Bastila to continue to associate with Revan after his amnesia developed.

 

Just a thought.

 

Disclaimer - "he" is used for convenience to refer to both Revan and the Exile. I think the situations I described still work with either gender, however.

 

 

[nightcleaver]

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Kreia says that Malachor paved the way to the Star Forge, and Revan's path. Also, take a visit to KotOR2.com. The chronicles, the last one, IX, says some interesting things that might help your speculation.

[junior]

 

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The last chronicle is interesting. Don't get me started on the others, as I dislike the Dark Horse Star Wars stuff that I've seen...

 

I think its still too early to start speculation on what exactly the last chronicle means for it all, though. We know something was found on Dantooine that was important, and I got the impression when I went back later that things weren't exactly the way that they'd been when Revan and Malak first arrived - presumeably Revan wanted others to keep from following in his footsteps and hid information. But its been long enough since I played KotOR1 that I don't recall for certain. Maybe I'll take a look at it again soon.

 

So that leaves the question of how it all fits together. How much did Revan know before he attacked the Mandalorians, how much did he know when he attacked the Republic, and how much did he only learn after he dealt with Malak?

 

 

[Ulicus]

  nightcleaver said:

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  Ok... there's something "Force-magical" about what happened at Malachor V, the torment there... from what the council says - and what do they know?  - it sounds like your connection, the way you connect to other people, could be partially responsible.  Still, I think it's pretty clear the trayus academy is somehow responsible for the way the three sith lords fell.  And how Revan fell... Trayus paved the way to Revan's Sith teachings, to his taking of the Star Forge.

 

And no, he isn't human.  Everyone states that he isn't human, not anymore, anyway - he is simply a manifestation of hunger on a massive scale.  The fact that you can beat him, though... shows that his immense power is only on the large scale, and not the small scale.  Or perhaps you, being a "wound" in the force as nihilus was, were resistant to his attack.  Perhaps he is blinded by such hunger to the tininess of yourself, and because of how you are a rip in the force like himself.  In this case you maintained enough humanity to turn back from going too far, but he didn't.  He is pure energy;  did you understand what he was saying to you on the bridge of the Ravager, or to Visas when she was sent to get you?  I certainly didn't. His motivations aren't human, they have nothing to do with the human spirit he once was.  It's not important why or how he got where he was.... because there is no way to know or comprehend.  I think putting it cut & dry in stone would do more harm than good to the story, because there's no way to understand what happened to him.  You must simply stop him.

 

Now, going forward in speculation...

 

I think the Star Forge isn't as small as we think it is; I think it, too, comes as result of the Mandalorian wars (the finding of it, that is).  Trayus paved the way to him finding it... I think I remember Ajunta Pall mentioning a great secret, a weapon, that the Sith Lords of his time were zealous of as a secret.  It seemed pretty clear that this was the Star Forge at the time.

 

Although, maybe it wasn't.  Maybe it had to do more with this other sith threat, the one beyond the rim, the empire of the True Sith.  Whatever that actually means...

 

 

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Hmm, Darth Nilihus, pure energy... hmmm, connected to the torment of Malachor V hmmm.... the Exile, a rip in the Force hmmm... caused on Malachor V by him cutting himself off due to too much suffering and torment within those he'd formed close bonds with meaning he had to protect himself from it.

 

Seems pretty obvious to me. Darth Nilihus=The "Fabric of the Force" that was ripped away from the Exile.

 

It's not too far fetched, these guys brought us the Nameless One and the Transcendent one after all and it pretty much amounts to the same thing *except with mortality instead of the Force*

 

I haven't played the game (I'm English), so there might be certain details in the story that mean that's impossible- but based on everything I've read about Nilihus and the Exile, that's what screams out to me.

 

 

 

[junior]

  Ulicus said:

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Seems pretty obvious to me.  Darth Nilihus=The "Fabric of the Force" that was ripped away from the Exile.

 

It's not too far fetched, these guys brought us the Nameless One and the Transcendent one after all and it pretty much amounts to the same thing *except with mortality instead of the Force*

 

 

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Interesting idea, but there's not really anything in the game to support it. Admittedly, there's nothing in the game that refutes it, but neither is there anything in the game that refutes the idea that Atton is Darth Traya's love child (stranger things have happened... *grin*).

 

One character eventually sees what's under the mask, and we're not lead to believe that there is anything that would link the Exile and Nihilus.

 

Its possible, but its probably not very likely, and the game doesn't even hint at it.

 

 

[NNTakot]

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A simple answer is that (I just figured this out) everything will be solved in the third game. It makes sense no? From both games, these trivial and important figures are moving to this 'place' and something BIG is going down, something that made Revan leave behind everything and something that convinced the Exile to go

[Ulicus]

  junior said:

 

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Its possible, but its probably not very likely, and the game doesn't even hint at it.

 

 

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Well, based on everything you (and others) have said, it hints at it very greatly.

 

It seems to make a lot of sense, after all, Nilihus is "pure energy" and the Force is "an energy field created by all living things" yada yada. He's linked to Malachor V, so is the Exile. He is hyped up to be an ultimate big bad yet in the end cannot even touch you (since he's pure Force and the Force cannot touch the exile... even though he can touch the Force) It just seemed like the logical explanation to me, even if it's a bit "Peter Pan and his shadow"... *has an image of the Exile trying to sew Nilihus to his feet* Weird.

 

 

 

[nightcleaver]

 

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Well... no one notices a change in you. And they see the death, the wound of the force in *you*. And it's not just you and Nihilus, either... there's a lot more to it, and it's a bit more complicated than that. Revan created the void that caused so many to fall... and created you, and the sith lords. Perhaps what you say is true... but it's not an obvious truth, as you seem to think, however strong the connection. The facts aren't there to support it. What is there, though...

 

Revan used the Mandalorian wars to create these converted jedi. He was corrupted, and the corruption told him to do this. The exile... he has an incredible connection to the people around him, through the force, and it's always been that way. The pain in the force Revan created at Malachor was reflected directly into the exile. One of the notes on the loading screens says that the three sith lords learned from Trayus academy of Hunger, Pain, and Betrayal. Everything seems to suggest that you aren't so much the cause of these Sith lords, as you are a reflection... because all of that pain, hunger, etc. was caused by MAlachor... and whatever happened there. AS far as REvan's motivations for this... remember Saruman (LOTR)? I'm thinking it's something like that, where he's corrupted... but thinks he's doing good, even in his terrible corruption.

 

I've changed my mind about the STar forge being relevant to everything else. The Star Forge was simply a distraction... and, quite probably, Revan's finding of it was incited by Malachor, because there's evidence the Sith have always known of that place.

 

[junior]

  Ulicus said:

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He is hyped

 

 

 

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Unfortunately, that's all that he is. *sigh*

 

And Nihilis isn't the only one that's been negatively affected by Malakor, either. Darth Sion's body is a fractured mess because of Malakor, but you'd be pretty hard pressed to draw a similar comparison with him.

 

As I said, I don't deny that there are some comparisons between The Exile and Nihilis. However, the simple fact is that this isn't even hinted at in the tiniest way in the game. While its possible to speculate on it here on the forums, you'd expect to get at bare minimum the gentlest push in that direction from the game itself. There is not even the most subtle suggestion of such a thing in the game.

 

Nihilis just is.

 

He exists to explain why the Jedi have gone into hiding, to provide development for Visas, and to draw Carth to Telos to have a word with you. That is pretty much the extent of him.

 

 

[nightcleaver]

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Is he hyped? Or do his capabilities simply make him falsely seem like the true threat? Was there anything, absolutely anything, beyond your impression that HE was the massive super-weapon of this game? Ask yourself, really, what WAS the reason you thought he was the main threat? Nothing in the game - nothing - said that he was your main enemy. We had that impression, because he was technically the reason Jedi went into hiding... but he's not the only reason. The other reason is that Sith assassins are about, and with so few numbers there's no way to really fight them. The Jedi master's had no idea it was this one... entity that killed Katarr. Kreia told about three threats; why assume it was just Nihilus? Why, obviously, because he's just so powerful. Could we have over-estimated him, though? As I recall, he paid no attention to you as you boarded his ship, because he could only see stars... planets... he didn't see you. Perhaps that's a twist? Perhaps we're supposed to see that not all was as it initially seemed?

[Darth Barth]

  nightcleaver said:

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Who are these True Sith?  They could even be Rakata for all we know, although that DOES seem like a bit too simple of an answer.

 

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Kreia says that the "Sith" is a belief. Perhaps there is something that predates the original Sith race. Hmm

 

[Darth Barth]

  nightcleaver said:

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What's that from, mustard?  Was that a quote about revan? (presumably by Kreia)

 

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That quote is from Visaas when you ask her who was under the mask.

 

EDIT: After the battle with

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Nihilus

 

[nightcleaver]

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Interesting placement, too. I think it strengthens my theory.

[Drakron]

I go over this AGAIN with the hopes it sinks in ...

 

Millenia the Jedi Order found the dark side and there was battle of Jedi that wanted to study it and the Jedi that wanted such knowledge to remain closed.

 

In the end the Jedi that wanted the Dark side lost and they escaped and they found the Sith race, now the Sith were a primitive culture and when seeing the Jedi they worship then as gods, as time passed those Jedi inbreed with the Sith and created a unique culture anc technology.

 

Now the Sith empire lasted 1000 years, when Marka Ragnos was burried a Republic scout ship reached Korriban and the Sith became aware the Republic and the Jedi were no legends, so after some internal conflict they decided to attack and even if they managed to reach deep into the Republic space they were defected and the Republic counter attack simply wiped then out.

 

The Sith Empire was no more, it was never rebuild (Kun tried and failed at that).

 

The Sith survived due to powerful Sith Lords that remained in ghost form and guided others to Sith knowledge, allowing the Sith to resurface from time to time with the cultural background being somewhat intact, that lasted until Darth Bane that created the rule-of-two and the whole "Darth" title.

 

The Sith are not much of a problem except their ability to corrupt, they lack the military might and the numbers to really be a problem to the Republic or the Jedi unless they are allowed to operate and the Jedi active seek then out and destroy then, Kun was too much of a example of what they can do if left unchecked.

 

So there is no "true Sith", the race is dead, their knowledge is on what left of the Sith Empire worlds (and Korriban was pretty much the only that was not bomb to hell) and the Sith culture is a mix of the Jedi that studied the Dark Side and the original Sith culture.

[nightcleaver]

Maybe True Sith means something other than race. Maybe it means the True Threat, the True Empire of the Sith ideology. Actually, that's what it seemed like she meant to me, but oh well.

[Drakron]

It means someone is sleeping on the job.

[nightcleaver]

I didn't know it was yours...

[Drakron]

My "job" is to remind people that someone else IP have to be respected, I really dont care when its their IP were they can do as they please, its their world and if I dont like it I leave ... done with Forgotten Realms and that is why you dont see me posting on NwN2 area.

 

I still somewhat care for Star Wars, its hard with Lucas and EU doing things I dont like it but I still care ... the day I stop its the day you dont find me posting over Star Wars.

[Darth Barth]

  nightcleaver said:

Maybe True Sith means something other than race. 

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That's what I got out of it. Especially, the conversation at the end. Kreia says the Sith are a "belief." This makes me question things that occured before Ajunta Pall discovered the Sith race. In a conversation with Kreia (I think when you ask her if she is Jedi or Sith), she questions what the Jedi fought against before there were Dark Jedi and before "Sith." She also brings up the fact that there must have been some great struggle before there were Jedi, even, if the Force is supposed to be as old as time itself.

 

Given knowledge of the Expanded Universe, there are galaxies where the Force has no meaning or power. Maybe this will be expanded upon in further games.

[nightcleaver]

Yuzhan Vong? I thought that there was a special reason for the Force not meaning anything to them. Hmm. Maybe I need to give up work on that lightsaber I was building. :/

[Darth Barth]

  nightcleaver said:

Yuzhan Vong?  I thought that there was a special reason for the Force not meaning anything to them.  Hmm.  Maybe I need to give up my work on that lightsaber I was building.  :/

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I wasn't really speaking of them in particular, but yes, instances like them.

[nightcleaver]

There are other instances? interesting...

 

I would rather they not step into that, though. The Force should stay mystical.

[Darth Barth]

  nightcleaver said:

There are other instances?  interesting...

 

I would rather they not step into that, though.  The Force should stay mystical.

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I agree. And I think this game has preserved that spirit. Such as

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Kreias reasoning for what she has done. In the final converstaion, she says that she hates the Force because it seems to have a will of its own, that everything is just its pawn. Couple that with the references to the Jedi and Sith as religions (something that Lucasarts has tried to stay away from) and I think the picture is becoming clearer

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Reminds me of Han Solos "hokey religions" quote.

[Ulicus]

  nightcleaver said:

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Interesting placement, too.  I think it strengthens my theory.

 

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*Plays devil's advocate* I think it strengthens mine... Visas sees "through the Force", when she removes the mask she sees a "Force image" of the Exile's face, when the Exile asks who he was she replies, "just a man".

 

Heh heh, I severely doubt I'm right - I'm just enjoying speculating, which by its very nature can be wrong. Oh wait, just realised- if you play a female character and Visas still says that then my theory is screwed. Dammit. *hits head on keyboard*

 

Anyway, maybe Obsidian hadn't decided on Nilihus origins and I've inspired them to write up something similiar on Nilihus true nature for part III. Incredibly doubtful, but I can have my little dreams.

 

 

 

 

[Jedi Master D Murda]

  junior said:

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As for Revan's goals - we don't have enough information at this point.  There's enough to suggest that of the Revan/Malak pair, Revan was the brains of the operation and Malak was merely someone who happened to be in the right place at the right time.  Its possible that Revan's trip to the ruins of Dantooine (where you first get hints of the Star Forge in KotOR 1) tipped him off to the presence of something beyond the rim.  Or its possible that it merely tipped him off to the Star Forge.

 

If he did know something was lurking out there, I suspect that he didn't share that information with Malak.  Revan's intent probably would have been to sit on it until he had some definite ideas of what he was up against (to avoid alerting the lurkers).  And once the civil war started, he wouldn't have been able to announce that his whole plan was to unite the Republic behind him to go engage in a war in a distant place.  His Sith "followers" were there for power, not to save the known galaxy.  But that's speculation, as we don't know how much he knew, or whether he only managed to piece some of it together afterwards.

 

Incidentally, I think the appearence of Bastila in the Sith Cave sequence puts an interesting spin on things.  Her presence there is explained as that of someone who wanted to join, even if she didn't actually do so.  Its possible that she had some similiarities with Atris.  We know that Atris seemed to particularly admire the Exile before he left, but decided to follow the Council's edict.  We also know that part of her hatred of the Exile is jealousy because the Exile was able to turn his back on the council and follow Revan while Atris couldn't bring herself to do so.  Its possible that Bastila had a similar attitude toward Revan, although presumeably she didn't feel the same sense of betrayel (or at least not to the same degree).  This would add additional impetus for her to 1.) join the team that went after Revan, 2.) give an additional reason for the bond to develop, and 3.) provide further reasons for Bastila to continue to associate with Revan after his amnesia developed.

 

Just a thought.

 

Disclaimer - "he" is used for convenience to refer to both Revan and the Exile.  I think the situations I described still work with either gender, however.

 

 

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That's some good specuation however I believe that Revan corrupted so many so that he could use them to fight the real threat. I think that he would tell them that his empire is being threatened by the real threat and that they would be coming so they needed to prepare and that's what he was trying to do during his reign as Dark Lord. But since that plan didn't go how he wanted and there was no time to rebuild he had to go face the threat head on... what a brave man, I salute you Revan.

 

  NNTakot said:

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A simple answer is that (I just figured this out) everything will be solved in the third game. It makes sense no? From both games, these trivial and important figures are moving to this 'place' and something BIG is going down, something that made Revan leave behind everything and something that convinced the Exile to go

 

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True but it's fun to speculate.