Speculation

[nightcleaver]

It's surprising no speculation has popped up, so I'll just try and start some with this thread.

 

We're trying to piece together what happened on the ebon hawk, and what happened with Revan, exactly.

 

Since the spoiler's forum is for game help, it would seem, I'm posting here.

 

 

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The end of the game was abrupt. Questions that were raised in the first of the game were left un-answered. There's hardly anything left to be spoiled about the game in terms of our own speculation, and the next sequel isn't going to come out for a bit, a think.

 

Here's what I have so far: Kreia and Carth both say that Revan went somewhere no one (he cared about) could follow him, because doing so would only jeapordize them.

 

Where did he go? Or, at least, what's the nature of where he went? Carth said that Revan told him he would return. That the things he had done in the past were wearing down on him, until something clicked/snapped and he decided he needed to leave, beyond the outer rim of the republic. Our exile goes there with him, at least, if he's lightside.

 

The threat is something enemy to both Jedi and Sith, from what Kreia said, as well.

 

I'm thinking it has something to do with the academy on Malachor, and it's secrets. It has something to do with the nature of the new sith that feed on force sensitives.

 

Does it have something to do with the Star Forge? The Rakata? The Mandalorian wars, it's suggested (by kreia, I believe), were caused by something other than the Mandalorians own will. The mandalorians, I might add, were superstitious of Malachor V.

 

The Jedi Master's had said they detected something dangerous in the Outer Rim, in the first game. That if they went there, they might fall.

 

And they fell. Kreia mentions that Revan probably had some means to corrupt so many people, and it had something to do with Malachor.

 

The real result of the Mandalorian war isn't because of the Mandalorians alone. It's because of something else, something beyond the outer rim. What is it? What was it? Does Revan really know or think he can return from whatever battle fights, or whatever he finds?

 

Maybe something at Malachor showed him the path to the star maps, to the Star Forge... maybe it has something to do with the Rakata. The Rakata killed themselves, they devoured themselves with dark power, and not a single force-sensitive was left. Was it the star forge that did this?

 

Revan thinks he's responsible for something. All of this seems to show that it has something to do with Rakata, or something the Rakatans encountered.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[Tainted Mustard]

 

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First: it was never about the Star Forge. The Star Forge was a tool Revan and Malak used to create a fleet, in an attempt at conquering the Republic, which would *not* have been a victory for the Sith. Revan knew this - Malak did not. The latter was more interested in crushing the Republic than defeating what really mattered - the Jedi and their beliefs. Revan knew that victory would come in converting Jedi to his cause. The Trayus Academy held the means to accomplish this. Exactly what Revan found in the Trayus Academy is not explained, however - none but Revan knew for certain, but now that his memories have been purged, all that is left in him may be a lingering guilt (Light Side) or the understanding that victory will only come with the eradication of the Jedi beliefs (Dark Side).

 

The threat Kreia hinted at seems to be the empire of the 'true' Sith - when the time is right, they will attack from the Outer Rim. What *their* intention is, however, is not revealed. It may be they have the same goal as Revan did.

 

[nightcleaver]

 

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Ahh, but I remember something about how Revan was careful about how he used the Star Forge. Of course the star forge was just a tool, but it was a massively powerful and dangerous one. It had it's effect on the Rakata, or was at least aligned with their end.

 

No, I suspect the star forge is only part of something much larger. And what does Kreia mean by, "True Sith"? I thought Sith were a race of humanoids who were enslaved by outcast jedi many thousands of years ago, forgotten in time, and they became a race of dark Force users - Korriban, not beyond the known Rim. And it's generally stated sort of vaguely, like trayus has something to do with them. Who are these True Sith? They could even be Rakata for all we know, although that DOES seem like a bit too simple of an answer.

 

[Tainted Mustard]

 

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Any speculation at this point seems to me a bit premature. The ending left several questions unanswered, the biggest and most obvious one being "what or who are the "True Sith" and what is their goal?"

 

Also... I think it's a possibility that Revan used the Mandalorian Wars and the Star Forge in an attempt to draw out the Jedi in order to convert those he could and destroy those he could not. It was never about conquering the Republic. Malak never fully understood the intentions of his master. He was always short-sighted. All he ever wanted was to become the Lord of the Sith and Master of the Galaxy.

 

[Tainted Mustard]

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And, as you said, I think there was more to the Mandalorian Wars than simply a desire for the Mandalorians to conquer the Republic. Revan's agenda seemed too well thought-out to be mere coincidence.

[nightcleaver]

 

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Ahh, I think I remember something about that, something that suggested Revan had intended to pull people to a certain cause.

 

As to the ending leaving too many things open:

It wouldn't be speculation now, would it, if we had all the answers?

 

Certain things may seem unlikely; that's why we keep formulating new ideas. It's the point of most fan-fic, I guess, without the bothersome medium.

 

[Tainted Mustard]

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True, but we have so little to go on. There are many possibilities, some plausible, some not. We could speculate for days and never find a satisfying answer. But still, I enjoy it, so I'll continue - just getting those thoughts out of the way. :D

[Tainted Mustard]

Ha! I can't help but laugh at this thread. Lines upon lines of black!

[nightcleaver]

Yeah, it's really annoying when people get so far into it they forget it's all speculation. Easy to do.

 

 

 

 

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Hehe, for the less brave out there, for all they know we're not saying anything. Or saying mean things about them in foreign languages, who knows.

 

Do you remember the quote from Kreia talking about Revan at all? His plans? I'm going to look into it - although right now I intend to sleep. Finals tomorrow, blah.

Also, if the True Sith had the same plans as Revan, what are those plans, exactly?

 

Hmm... Kreia says that Revan's choices were always his own. She has a way of saying prophetic things, often without realizing what she's prophetic about. But he lead them to the Sith teachings. Hmm.

 

 

[The Yeti of 66]

Malak may have become more powerful than Revan when he attacked his ship but he really should have waited. He knew nothing in comparison to Revan. Revan used the SF as a tool as you said. Malak was drowned in it's power, he used it as a tool to better himself instead of as a weapon like it was intended.

 

This also pokes at a couple of other things. Carth said that the Jedi should have been more like Revan and Malak and help them defeat the Madalorians. I know he didn't say that directly, but that's what he meant. However, the Jedi said they were waiting for the true threat to reveal itself. When you first play Kotor, that sounds like BS and you really think Revan did the right thing besides his fall. Now that you know of the 'True Sith' it makes sense. However, if Revan didn't go, the Jedi still may not have known the exact nature of the real threat. They would have still been caught off guard when the Sith attack came. The exile and Revan are waiting and expecting the attack, which still gives them an advantage.

 

 

Now when you hear all of this, Kotor seems so small.........

[nightcleaver]

 

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The Sith are an ideal. The Sith, the True Sith, are beyond the outer rim. That's what Kreia told us.

 

Does this mean even the True Sith are an ideal? It seems like there are Sith of ideal beyond the outer rim - or is it in blood?

 

I'm not sure what the story was behind the sith, anyway. Oh well.

 

[Mahf]

Some thoughts and a question:

 

 

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Revan had nothing to do with the cause of the Mandalorian Wars, he only made his discoveries during the way, not before. But SOMETHING did cause them and it was something bigger than the Mandaloridans. Perhaps there is an empire of True Sith beyond the Outer Rim, waiting for the right moment to strike at the Republic? Also, perhaps related, I never caught the origin of Darth Nihilis. Did anyone else?

 

[nightcleaver]

 

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Beyond him being of the torment on Malachor V? No, that's never explained. How would you suggest it COULD be explained? He's not human, he can't speak, and he doesn't think like a human does. Not anymore, anyway - and his story before that, how important is that to who he is now? Again, he's become something beyond understanding, something that has nothing to do with his former self. Save that it came from his former self, and that's the best explanation anyone can get.

 

Kreia said that the "True Sith" are waiting to strike, at the end of the game. There's a Sith empire beyond known space, beyond the Outer Rim of the Republic. What's the nature of them, though? Of course, Revan couldn't take anyone he cared about with him, because it was too dangerous. Kreia said, "Perhaps if he had made her (bastila) understand...", which suggests it's not something so great that she could go with him, if she understood. So it's something to do with the torment, the corruption of the mandalorian wars.. and, hence, the corruption of the Mandalorians. Is the corruption of the republic fleet and of the mandalorians connected? Perhaps so. It almost seems like the "True Sith" aren't even substantial beings, but doesn't look like star wars to me.

 

 

 

[Mahf]

  nightcleaver said:

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Beyond him being of the torment on Malachor V?  No, that's never explained.  How would you suggest it COULD be explained?  He's not human, he can't speak, and he doesn't think like a human does.  Not anymore, anyway - and his story before that, how important is that to who he is now?  Again, he's become something beyond understanding, something that has nothing to do with his former self.  Save that it came from his former self, and that's the best explanation anyone can get.

 

 

 

 

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Hmmm... I'm not sure if I'm satisfied with your explanation for Nihilis. Yeah I know he was related to Malachor v. How did you figure out that he wasn't human? Are you saying he isn't human anymore or he was never human? And his story before that is of course important. His past is what made him who he became. This is certainly at least a minor theme in KOTOR2 and a MAJOR theme in Star Wars as a whole. So we know that he became what he is as a result of the destruction at Malachor V. Why did Malachor V affect HIM so greatly? Is he a fallen Jedi? A student of Revan? A True Sith? Or did he not even exist before, and is just some physical manifestation of the torment there? I thought it would have been cool if his backstory had been similar to the exiles. I was LS by the way. It seemed like Nihilis was everything that the Jedi council feared you would be: feeding off of force sensitives and consuming everything. It seemed for a moment to me like we were opposites, i.e. I used my strong connections with others to strengthen them and show them the force (I had taken 3 apprentices) whereas Nihilis used it to destroy. In any case, I really do wish we knew more about where he came from. Same with Sion actually, as well as Kreia. The reason Revan defied the council is well-understood: he wanted to help the Republic. But why originally did Kreia? Who was Sion before? How do Sion and Nihilis relate to eachother if they do at all? Lots of questions...

 

[nightcleaver]

 

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Ok... there's something "Force-magical" about what happened at Malachor V, the torment there... from what the council says - and what do they know? - it sounds like your connection, the way you connect to other people, could be partially responsible. Still, I think it's pretty clear the trayus academy is somehow responsible for the way the three sith lords fell. And how Revan fell... Trayus paved the way to Revan's Sith teachings, to his taking of the Star Forge.

 

And no, he isn't human. Everyone states that he isn't human, not anymore, anyway - he is simply a manifestation of hunger on a massive scale. The fact that you can beat him, though... shows that his immense power is only on the large scale, and not the small scale. Or perhaps you, being a "wound" in the force as nihilus was, were resistant to his attack. Perhaps he is blinded by such hunger to the tininess of yourself, and because of how you are a rip in the force like himself. In this case you maintained enough humanity to turn back from going too far, but he didn't. He is pure energy; did you understand what he was saying to you on the bridge of the Ravager, or to Visas when she was sent to get you? I certainly didn't. His motivations aren't human, they have nothing to do with the human spirit he once was. It's not important why or how he got where he was.... because there is no way to know or comprehend. I think putting it cut & dry in stone would do more harm than good to the story, because there's no way to understand what happened to him. You must simply stop him.

 

Now, going forward in speculation...

 

I think the Star Forge isn't as small as we think it is; I think it, too, comes as result of the Mandalorian wars (the finding of it, that is). Trayus paved the way to him finding it... I think I remember Ajunta Pall mentioning a great secret, a weapon, that the Sith Lords of his time were zealous of as a secret. It seemed pretty clear that this was the Star Forge at the time.

 

Although, maybe it wasn't. Maybe it had to do more with this other sith threat, the one beyond the rim, the empire of the True Sith. Whatever that actually means...

 

 

[Mahf]

  nightcleaver said:

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  Ok... there's something "Force-magical" about what happened at Malachor V, the torment there... from what the council says - and what do they know?  - it sounds like your connection, the way you connect to other people, could be partially responsible.  Still, I think it's pretty clear the trayus academy is somehow responsible for the way the three sith lords fell.  And how Revan fell... Trayus paved the way to Revan's Sith teachings, to his taking of the Star Forge.

 

And no, he isn't human.  Everyone states that he isn't human, not anymore, anyway - he is simply a manifestation of hunger on a massive scale.  The fact that you can beat him, though... shows that his immense power is only on the large scale, and not the small scale.  Or perhaps you, being a "wound" in the force as nihilus was, were resistant to his attack.  Perhaps he is blinded by such hunger to the tininess of yourself, and because of how you are a rip in the force like himself.  In this case you maintained enough humanity to turn back from going too far, but he didn't.  He is pure energy;  did you understand what he was saying to you on the bridge of the Ravager, or to Visas when she was sent to get you?  I certainly didn't. His motivations aren't human, they have nothing to do with the human spirit he once was.  It's not important why or how he got where he was.... because there is no way to know or comprehend.  I think putting it cut & dry in stone would do more harm than good to the story, because there's no way to understand what happened to him.  You must simply stop him.

 

Now, going forward in speculation...

 

I think the Star Forge isn't as small as we think it is; I think it, too, comes as result of the Mandalorian wars (the finding of it, that is).  Trayus paved the way to him finding it... I think I remember Ajunta Pall mentioning a great secret, a weapon, that the Sith Lords of his time were zealous of as a secret.  It seemed pretty clear that this was the Star Forge at the time.

 

Although, maybe it wasn't.  Maybe it had to do more with this other sith threat, the one beyond the rim, the empire of the True Sith.  Whatever that actually means...

 

 

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I'm starting to think you're right, that Nihilus' background really isn't particularly important for the telling of this story, similar to Darth Maul's background not being particularly important for Episode 1. Its just my admiration for really cool bad guys wants more... but yeah, more to the point, I think you're right. What matters is what he was and how he relates to the main character.

 

On the star forge, I think you're right that Ajunta Pall was not talking about the star forge, instead either about malachor V or about the real sith threat. I've gotten some other ideas I'm going to put in another post.

 

[Tainted Mustard]

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"Just a man. Nothing more."

[nightcleaver]

 

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What's that from, mustard? Was that a quote about revan? (presumably by Kreia)

 

Look at the site, KotOR2.com A new chronicle is up that clarifies some things... Malachor was really the cause for the fall of Revan, of so many Jedi, and the way Revan won the war. Malachor (from what I can tell) is the thing, "Lurking beyond the outer rim" that made the council afraid of starting the war. Ironic that the thing they were afraid of couldn't be solved by THEM not going to war with the Mandalorians, but by REVAN not going to war with the Mandalorians, or even thinking of how to defeat them.

 

Revan's will was massive - and much as palpatine, he maintained a great deal of his intelligence even after he had fallen to the dark side.

 

For a long time I thought the true threat was just the ghosts of the Mandalorian wars, but it looks like not even that is true. The true threat is what caused the wars... what caused the ghosts on Malachor V.

 

 

[DarthNipples]

  Tainted Mustard said:

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First: it was never about the Star Forge. The Star Forge was a tool Revan and Malak used to create a fleet, in an attempt at conquering the Republic, which would *not* have been a victory for the Sith. Revan knew this - Malak did not. The latter was more interested in crushing the Republic than defeating what really mattered - the Jedi and their beliefs. Revan knew that victory would come in converting Jedi to his cause. The Trayus Academy held the means to accomplish this. Exactly what Revan found in the Trayus Academy is not explained, however - none but Revan knew for certain, but now that his memories have been purged, all that is left in him may be a lingering guilt (Light Side) or the understanding that victory will only come with the eradication of the Jedi beliefs (Dark Side).

 

The threat Kreia hinted at seems to be the empire of the 'true' Sith - when the time is right, they will attack from the Outer Rim. What *their* intention is, however, is not revealed. It may be they have the same goal as Revan did.

 

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I like this interpretation. The Jedi are weak... they aren't able to fight wars. They cannot defend the Republic against what lies in the Outer Rim so they have to be cleansed and converted. He believes the Republic can only stand against whatever lies in the Outer Rim if they follow the teachings of the Sith. They have to fight the real Sith people with their own teachings and philosophies.

 

Was this perhaps the point of the storyline?

 

The question now would be. Was the preservation of the Republic under the Sith teachings Revan's intention all along or did the events in the first game change it? It seems to me he seemed pretty dead set on destroying the Republic before he was captured and only after seeing Malak's wanton destruction did he realize his course was wrong.

 

And what does this whole wound deal have to do with anything? It seems to me that Revan had it too, as he also influenced people and was able to convert Jedi quickly. The whole concept of the wound seems far-fetched to me, as it was caused by the destruction of an entire planet, Malachor V. But if destroying a planet creates wounds then why did Malak not have this wound when he destroyed Taris or Vader when he destroyed Alderan(?)?

 

And what does Kreia have to do with anything? She wants to destroy the force.... I still don't understand how she intended to accomplish that and I still don't understand what it has to do with the Outer Rim True Sith threat.

 

[nightcleaver]

 

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I think it's a little more complex than that... look at the new chronicle on KotOR2.com. Remember how palpatine was able to control himself, even as a darksider? It's more that sort of thing. Revan's will was corrupted, but it was strong enough to still be intelligent and human, instead of the gibbering mess Nihilus was, or the mass of pain Sion was.

 

The sith don't care about the preservation of the Republic; they care about the preservation of strength as a "higher" ideal than everything else. Kreia says that the Force uses Jedi and Sith to it's own ends... and she doesn't like it.

 

really, she's bitter because of how much she's bounced back and forth, how much she's controlled and been controlled, and can't see a way out - except through you.

 

 

[DarthNipples]

  nightcleaver said:

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I think it's a little more complex than that... look at the new chronicle on KotOR2.com.  Remember how palpatine was able to control himself, even as a darksider?  It's more that sort of thing.  Revan's will was corrupted, but it was strong enough to still be intelligent and human, instead of the gibbering mess Nihilus was, or the mass of pain Sion was.

 

The sith don't care about the preservation of the Republic; they care about the preservation of strength as a "higher" ideal than everything else.  Kreia says that the Force uses Jedi and Sith to it's own ends... and she doesn't like it.

 

really, she's bitter because of how much she's bounced back and forth, how much she's controlled and been controlled, and can't see a way out - except through you.

 

 

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Ok.

 

1. If Revan didn't believe int he Republic and instead in a higher strength then why did Revan not take Malak's place as Sith Lord and destroy the Republic? The two choices is he either turns to the LS and fights the Sith in the Outer Rim or turns to the DS, but still lets the Sith degrade, leaderless as Sion and Nihilus essentially destroy it with their ineptitude. Even as DS he still goes out to the Outer Rim.

 

Theres a REASON why he chooses to preserve the Republic.

 

2. The question remains unanswered as to HOW Traya/Kreia intended to use you to destroy the force. How was my character supposed to destroy it? How was I a threat? They told me I'm a threat but I don't understand why. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ostkant]

I just want to know... do I risk reading big KOTOR 2 spoilers if I highlight your spoiler tags? Or is this about an early part of the game, because I reached Telos so far.

[blackriderx]

  Ostkant said:

I just want to know... do I risk reading big KOTOR 2 spoilers if I highlight your spoiler tags? Or is this about an early part of the game, because I reached Telos so far.

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I would play through the game first.

[nightcleaver]

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Revan was fighting the Republic. He wanted to destroy the republic... and rule in it's place, best case scenario. He *was* corrupted by the dark side... although I'm sure he could've had the wherewithal to know that something else was the real problem. I'm sure he recognizes the threat of who or whatever's beyond known space, but it's simply a threat to his power. In fact, knowing all things star-wars, that seems vastly more likely. If he can win... it's survival of the strongest, just like I said. Perhaps he inadvertantly helps the Republic... perhaps he won't be able to conquer it in the end... but at least he recognizes that his power means nothing when there's a greater threat beyond known space.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

  nightcleaver said:

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Revan was fighting the Republic.  He wanted to destroy the republic... and rule in it's place, best case scenario.  He *was* corrupted by the dark side... although I'm sure he could've had the wherewithal to know that something else was the real problem.  I'm sure he recognizes the threat of who or whatever's beyond known space, but it's simply a threat to his power.  In fact, knowing all things star-wars, that seems vastly more likely.  If he can win... it's survival of the strongest, just like I said.  Perhaps he inadvertantly helps the Republic... perhaps he won't be able to conquer it in the end... but at least he recognizes that his power means nothing when there's a greater threat beyond known space.

 

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I truly have to congradulate you nightcleaver on an amzing topic but:

 

 

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Did you not talk to Kreia as to whether she knew Revan or not? Because if you did she says, I think, that Revan falls so that he can unite the Republic against the "True Sith". The Jedi Order that Revan was under preached not to go to war and preached patience when Revan knew that this was wasting time as he saw the true threat. I remember hearing in K2 that Revan used the Mandalorian Wars to convert many people to his cause and was going to take over the Republic so that he could unite them against the "real" threat. Little did he know that he was going to be captured and have his mind wiped . There goes that plan. But from what I understand of K2's story it seems that Revan gained back his memories and since there was little left of what he was trying to build, because of Malak's ignorance, he had to go the Outer Rim to face this threat by himself, but he has help on the way thanks to Kreia and the Exile and the soon to be Lost Jedi of the new Council.

 

If you remember correctly in K2's story it says that Revan was careful, during his reign as the Dark Lord, to not destroy certain areas because he knew they would be instrumental in help fighting the "true Sith"

 

As to answer how Kreia would destroy the force was by killing herself and the Exile because of their wounds and then the force would be destroyed... at least that's how I read into it.