Bastila Shan vs Anakin Skywalker

[DSLuke]

im jsut waiting for what nur ab will say so i cant tell him why im right! MAUHAHAHHAHA.

 

Mace Windu Vs. Malak? who wins?

 

YOu better say windu cause hes oen badd muther f*$@

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Start it as a new topic-poll??

[Influence]

what is you take on teh matter GoA?

[Nur Ab Sal]

Ok Nur Sab, Sorry for any comments I made that might have offended you.

 

Wrning: Possible Spoilers Ahead

 

Firstly your link doesn't work, but I'll take it as you say it.

 

And my problem with the 7 forms, is as a whole, I think Vapaad and form II are neat even though they dont follow the movies very well, so I can't argue those cause they have been in books and such although the history of form II is still uncertain.  All I really know is it is old, and made in response to all the lightsaber wielding baddies in the old times.

 

Next, though what Obi said in Ep was an exageration I think the basis for me using this comment was to show that Anakin's main talent as a Jedi was the lightsaber, which cant be said about bastila even though she uses a double bladed saber which is also odd cause Star Wars database labled those as "sith" lightsabers.

 

As far as EU goes, for me, the movies are the most cannon source followed by Books and such (EU) which are then cannon as long as they dont contradict the movies, because if you have contradicting elements....how can it be cannon even if Lucas Arts made a document that says it is....almost a contradiction in and of itself dont you think?  Anyway alot of EU may be cannon but some of the stuff really is just nonsense, and when I say that I mean it just isn't Star Wars or it just doesn't seem logical, cannon or not.

 

Now as far as cultures go, yes their arts(culture) can die down due to influences of other cultures such as westernization I cant disagree with that, and granted to keep certain skills a group of artists have to use it or lose it, either they use it and never forget , or over time it ceases to exist. Again, that is something found in the basis of psychology itself, I cant dispute it.

 

What I can say is although after time some powers may be lost the basis for which those powers where made still exist, I mean why would the Jedi not pass on there most important stuff even if their numbers dwindled?  And perhaps they didn't have the experience of a Jedi guardian during the Sith Wars, but they do practice the art of dueling (I believe that was said in the article about the 7 forms).  So when Jedi such as Anakin fought during the Clone Wars where jedi fought Jedi (according to Clone Wars comics) and Jedi fought those Grievous Guards who had weapons that blocked lightsabers, then there skill in dueling is gonna improve undoubtedly but perhaps not as high as during the Sith Wars cause granted there where alot more Sith to deal with than rouge jedi and grievous guards, So they are gonna be dueling alot more often and there skills would be alittle bit better.

 

However, Anakin, plenty of combat exp from Clone Wars, very talented with a lightsaber to the point where he actually beats Mace, second only to Yoda(Granted Obi beats him but Obi was his master and knew how Anakin fought which gave him a advantage Mace didn't have) fights Bastila who has perhaps more dueling experience but less talent/skill then maybe she could put up somewhat of a fight but in the end Anakin is gonna win, his skill is too awesome, in some EpIII footage when you see him fight he acts like he isn't even trying....and if he isn't even trying against other well trained Jedi then damn he must be good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK mostly agreed but I throw a few comments anyway:

 

Clone Wars may influence reborn of lightsaber art, true.Howewer 4000 years ago level was higher becouse sith wars were constant element. Thus I believe ancient folks were somehow better in lightsabers. Just like medieval samurai is better than fencing champion from our times.

 

The problem of fall of jedi abilities and force proficiency may be linked to the balance of the force stuff...and don't forget that after Ruusan only 300 jedi survived sith thought bomb - mostly young knights, all experienced masters died and their knowledge with them. Palpatine is using traditional sith powers all the time so it seems that only jedi are weakened.

 

And still I think that Anakin was exceptional becouse he has just normal jedi abilities while his contemporaries were unnaturally weakedend by force imbalance.

Note that new jedi trained by Luke are more powerful than MAce or even Yoda.The force is in balance again...

 

Check out the link it should be OK now.

[Influence]

wow... so all three of us pretty much agree? hmmm

 

I didnt know that How is that possible considering luke barely ahd any training?

 

Edit: ANd luke was BARELY able to beat the pitifully weak Darth Vader. Well Pitifully weak compared to Jedi and Sith Durign the CLoen Wars.

[GhostofAnakin]

One small thing to consider in regards to Bastila's "prowess" with the lightsaber:

 

Don't forget that many felt KOTOR was too easy. Which means that a lot of the in game fighting where Bastila beat all those dark jedi and sith apprentices were exaggerated due to the ease by which the player controlling the party had.

 

What's my point about this? Simple. You can't point to a fight (for instance, when you first confront the 3 Dark Jedi on the first Star Map planet) and say that "see, Bastila destroyed all three of those Dark Jedi all by herself" simply because it wasn't BASTILA'S skill that enabled that to happen, but the ease of the game. If you argue against that point, then you're admitting that Juhani is one of the greatest Jedi ever also since she used to defeat everyone in her path, too, when she was in my party. By that token, so did Mission and Carth, and neither of them are even Jedi.

 

The truth is, we can only go by cutscenes and what has been told to us in the story about how good Bastila is with a lightsaber. And from that, we gather she's not much of a warrior. She lost her lightsaber and couldn't beat the Vulkars (who aren't Force users), and she lost in her duel with Malak. All in all, not exactly "proof" that she could come anywhere close to defeating Anakin.

[Influence]

yeah Anakin wins, You still disagree Nur Ab Sal?

[DSLuke]

I think somehow the Jedi order during the prequel era has declined seriously. Now if that was due to the fact that they had no real enemies (Dark Jedi of Sith) for a long time or it was due to Palpatine's use of some powerful artifact I don't know. Although I guess Sidious had someting to do with it.

Remember the dialogue between Yoda and Windu, they were thinking about informing the senate that their powers have diminished.

I think that the reason why Anakin was so strong in the Force so that he could restore the LS to its previous state, but obviously the plan backfired.

 

What do you think on this?

[Nur Ab Sal]

One small thing to consider in regards to Bastila's "prowess" with the lightsaber:

 

Don't forget that many felt KOTOR was too easy. Which means that a lot of the in game fighting where Bastila beat all those dark jedi and sith apprentices were exaggerated due to the ease by which the player controlling the party had.

 

What's my point about this? Simple. You can't point to a fight (for instance, when you first confront the 3 Dark Jedi on the first Star Map planet) and say that "see, Bastila destroyed all three of those Dark Jedi all by herself" simply because it wasn't BASTILA'S skill that enabled that to happen, but the ease of the game. If you argue against that point, then you're admitting that Juhani is one of the greatest Jedi ever also since she used to defeat everyone in her path, too, when she was in my party. By that token, so did Mission and Carth, and neither of them are even Jedi.

 

The truth is, we can only go by cutscenes and what has been told to us in the story about how good Bastila is with a lightsaber. And from that, we gather she's not much of a warrior. She lost her lightsaber and couldn't beat the Vulkars (who aren't Force users), and she lost in her duel with Malak. All in all, not exactly "proof" that she could come anywhere close to defeating Anakin.

 

On the other hand Anakin lost with geonosians in factory proving his lack of jedi reflex and later was fighting with 80 years old Dooku and lost his right hand

 

Argument that "this is video game" takes back this discussion any credibility. Thinking such way we shouldn't discuss about KOTOR/prequel related problems at all - like duels between malak-windu or bastila-anakin.

 

Surely that wasn't as easy as in the game but Revan and Bastila were for sure very tired when Malak entered the scene.

[Influence]

I think somehow the Jedi order during the prequel era has declined seriously. Now if that was due to the fact that they had no real enemies (Dark Jedi of Sith) for a long time or it was due to Palpatine's use of some powerful artifact I don't know. Although I guess Sidious had someting to do with it.

Remember the dialogue between Yoda and Windu, they were thinking about informing the senate that their powers have diminished.

I think that the reason why Anakin was so strong in the Force so that he could restore the LS to its previous state, but obviously the plan backfired.

 

What do you think on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you are wrong, I think ANakin brigning Balance back to the force was destined to Diminish the Light Side who had reigned over the DS for many generations. THe Jedi merely misinterprteted the prophecy and thought balance in the force would be beneficial to the LS rather than the equally of teh D and L sides.

 

EDIT: Form this perspective teh prophecy was fulfilled and techniqully Anakin was not a failure and did his job.

[Nur Ab Sal]

This I can agree...

[DSLuke]

I didn't mean to say that bringing balance to the Force will be more benefitial to the LS, I would say it would level the field as the LS of the Force has been clouded (as Yoda says) so by unclouding it you leave good and evil to cancel each other out,.

[Influence]

thats not what you jsut said

 

"I think that the reason why Anakin was so strong in the Force so that he could restore the LS to its previous state, but obviously the plan backfired."

 

EDIT: I must admit this is a very good thread, even if i thought the question was ridiculous at first, and kinda still do

[GhostofAnakin]

On the other hand Anakin lost eith geonosians in factory proving his lack of jedi reflex and later was fighting with Dooku and lost hand

 

Anakin took on all the geonosians on his own, on their own "turf". He also had to contend with a mass of machinery that put him at a disadvantage, since the geonosians could fly and didn't have to rely on standing on those conveyer belts. He lost to Dooku, who was already an established Jedi Master, after letting his own overconfidence get the better of him.

 

Argument that "this is video game" takes back this discussion any credibility. Thinking such way we shouldn't discuss about KOTOR/prequel related problems - like duels between malak-windu or bastila-anakin.

 

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that IN-GAME aspects (ie. where YOU, the PC controlled the fighting) can't be taken in to account because our ability as gamers, not the skill of the character, determined if we won or lost the battles. Cutscenes and storyline, on the other hand, show what happens regardless of the ability of the gamer.

 

Surely that wasn't as easy as in game but Revan and Bastila were for sure very tired when Malak entered the scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As was Anakin when he lost to Dooku. Don't forget Anakin had just fought all those droids in the arena, as well as fight off those 3 beasts that were sent to execute him, Padme and Obi-wan. Dooku was completely rested, just standing and watching from the balcony. Anakin was just as tired, if not moreso, than Bastila was when she faced Malak.

[Nur Ab Sal]

He was maybe as tired as Bastila but he wasn't tortured earlier. And Dooku's abilities were reduced by his age. So he and Malak present the same level + fact that 4000 years ago probably Dooku would be ordinary lightsaber grunt. And yet Anakin lost his hand and Bastila didn't. Her defence was better = her technique was better.

[DSLuke]

Don't compare the game to the movie.

In the game you characters could all die (but for one who would keep on fighting) and then be restores to their full health without a scratch!

[GhostofAnakin]

He was maybe as tired as Bastila but he wasn't tortured earlier. And Dooku's abilities were reduced by his age. So he and Malak present the same level + fact that 4000 years ago probably Dooku would be ordinary lightsaber grunt. And yet Anakin lost his hand and Bastila didn't. Her defence was better = her technique was better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Where do you get the idea that Malak was better than Dooku? Dooku was a Jedi MASTER. Malak, by all accounts, wasn't even a Jedi KNIGHT. He was a Padawan when he took off with Revan to the unknowns. As for the "Anakin lost his hand", you can't compare that and say that's proof because NO one lost their hand in KOTOR. It wasn't designed to allow dismemberment. Both got defeated, and trying to deduct points for lost limbs or whatnot is just semantics. Anakin lost to a Jedi Master, Bastila lost to a Padawan who decided to call himself a Sith Lord.

[Influence]

He was maybe as tired as Bastila but he wasn't tortured earlier. And Dooku's abilities were reduced by his age. So he and Malak present the same level + fact that 4000 years ago probably Dooku would be ordinary lightsaber grunt. And yet Anakin lost his hand and Bastila didn't. Her defence was better = her technique was better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah but its all relative, becasue of teh differences between the flow of the force so if Dooku had been around 4000 years ago maybe the force woudl have flown through him stronger as well.

 

EDIT: PLus its nto a FACT dooku woudl be a grunt.

[Nur Ab Sal]

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that IN-GAME aspects (ie. where YOU, the PC controlled the fighting) can't be taken in to account because our ability as gamers, not the skill of the character, determined if we won or lost the battles

 

Then crucial duels like final fight with Malak or Bastila-Revan duel in the temple shouldn't be discussed at all, and yet they are discussed and people use them in their arguments.

 

Where do you get the idea that Malak was better than Dooku? Dooku was a Jedi MASTER. Malak, by all accounts, wasn't even a Jedi KNIGHT. He was a Padawan when he took off with Revan to the unknowns. As for the "Anakin lost his hand", you can't compare that and say that's proof because NO one lost their hand in KOTOR. It wasn't designed to allow dismemberment. Both got defeated, and trying to deduct points for lost limbs or whatnot is just semantics. Anakin lost to a Jedi Master, Bastila lost to a Padawan who decided to call himself a Sith Lord.

 

I said that Malak and Dooku were on the same level of lightsaber fight (probably)

becouse of Dooku's old age! Younger Dooku would probably finish Bastila, Revan, Malak, Yoda, Anakin, Mace and generally everyone.

 

No matter why in game Bastila didn't loose her hand she didn't, this is fact and

whatever the reasons are, they aren't important. As I've said before, with your approach we shouldn't discuss this at all.

[DSLuke]

He was maybe as tired as Bastila but he wasn't tortured earlier. And Dooku's abilities were reduced by his age. So he and Malak present the same level + fact that 4000 years ago probably Dooku would be ordinary lightsaber grunt. And yet Anakin lost his hand and Bastila didn't. Her defence was better = her technique was better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah but its all relative, becasue of teh differences between the flow of the force so if Dooku had been around 4000 years ago maybe the force woudl have flown through him stronger as well

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only the LS of the Force was clouded at that period of time (ep 1-3)

[Influence]

Well you first brought it up Nur Ab

[GhostofAnakin]

Then crucial duels like final fight with Malak or Bastila-Revan duel in the temple shouldn't be discussed at all, and yet they are discussed and people use them in their arguments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I haven't. I've only used arguments based on what we've been told about both characters through cutscenes/movie scenes and/or storylines as told to us by a narrator/different characters.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Well you first brought it up Nur Ab

 

Dooku was on the darkside when fighting with Anakin and limits that force imbalance put on jedi ceased to him

[DSLuke]

So something that counts for Anakin, his use of the force was weak when fighting dooku.

[GhostofAnakin]

I said that Malak and Dooku were on the same level of lightsaber fight (probably)

becouse of Dooku's old age! Younger Dooku would probably finish Bastila, Revan, Malak, Yoda, Anakin, Mace and generally everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And I'm saying that you're not even close with that one. Malak was a padawan and there is no indication that, other than riding Revan's coattails, was he even a good lightsaber fighter. Dooku, on the other hand, proved he was by defeating TWO Jedi and fighting a third (and a Jedi Master at that) to a draw.

[Influence]

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that IN-GAME aspects (ie. where YOU, the PC controlled the fighting) can't be taken in to account because our ability as gamers, not the skill of the character, determined if we won or lost the battles

 

Then crucial duels like final fight with Malak or Bastila-Revan duel in the temple shouldn't be discussed at all, and yet they are discussed and people use them in their arguments.

 

Where do you get the idea that Malak was better than Dooku? Dooku was a Jedi MASTER. Malak, by all accounts, wasn't even a Jedi KNIGHT. He was a Padawan when he took off with Revan to the unknowns. As for the "Anakin lost his hand", you can't compare that and say that's proof because NO one lost their hand in KOTOR. It wasn't designed to allow dismemberment. Both got defeated, and trying to deduct points for lost limbs or whatnot is just semantics. Anakin lost to a Jedi Master, Bastila lost to a Padawan who decided to call himself a Sith Lord.

 

I said that Malak and Dooku were on the same level of lightsaber fight (probably)

becouse of Dooku's old age! Younger Dooku would probably finish Bastila, Revan, Malak, Yoda, Anakin, Mace and generally everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NO coem on man, Your saying Dooki coudl beat Yoda if he was younger? They tied and Yoda is OLder than Dooku. Yoda only lived for a few more decades while Dooku could have lived for many more years.

 

EDIT: Not to mention since Yoda was 900 years old.. a few more decades was practically nothing!