So how about that apology.

[chemchok]

For one, the only reason Hilary is in NY is because she saw an easy mark in a popular locale.  Defeat a candidate who would otherwise be defeated anyway, and do it in a state that gets a lot of attention just because it's NY, and viola!  Political-career-freedom.  She has no ties to NY, and no business represnting anyone in the state, but people were tired of her opponent's lack-luster performance.  They'd have voted for a sock-puppet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm at a loss as to what you're talking about. Rick Lazio had been a rising star in Long Island politics and was also up for his first bid at the Senate. If it had been anybody else besides Hillary Clinton they probably would have had a much worse showing in the polls. Plus, the worst hit against Lazio wasn't his political stances persay, but his rudeness towards Hillary in their last televised debate prior to the election. It's entirely ridiculous to say that NY voters would have voted for a sock puppet instead of Lazio.

[Product of the Cosmos]

Don't really care about that.  Its the past and I am more converned about the present.  Bush hasn't done jack here on the Domestic front so I am voting for Kerry. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Out of the frying pan and into another frying pan, if you ask me. I personally think Kerry will, if elected, turn out to be one of America's worst nightmares.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol. I think the next 4 years will be some of Americas worse nightmares regardless.

 

 

But do you say that in light of Cheney saying there will be terrorist attacks if Kerry is elected?! That is a bit eery. lol.

[oherror]

Don't really care about that.  Its the past and I am more converned about the present.  Bush hasn't done jack here on the Domestic front so I am voting for Kerry. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Out of the frying pan and into another frying pan, if you ask me. I personally think Kerry will, if elected, turn out to be one of America's worst nightmares.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol. I think the next 4 years will be some of Americas worse nightmares regardless.

 

 

But do you say that in light of Cheney saying there will be terrorist attacks if Kerry is elected?! That is a bit eery. lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yeah i know what you mean the terrorist groups are getting more organized due to the hunt for them. I wouldn't be surprized if they take out one of our cities with a dirty bomb or a chemical weapon. I mean its not that hard to get one in to the country through the northern border.

 

who ever is elected will have to deal with the real threat of a WMD getting set off in the USA. Considering iraq did have WMD but so far the USA has found zero of them...meaning the were taken out of the country before the troops were deployed. My bet is they are in terrorist hands now and all they need is a way to transport it to there targets. I mean the targets don't always have to be american any euro nation will do...like france for example.

 

scary thoughts to be sure.

[Weiser_Cain]

Still voting for kerry, though I'll admit I'm a little worried he won't kill as many people as bush. I guess I'll just have to settle for actually getting bin ladin and not destroying national preserves...

[Dakoth]

Atually would Kerry have even went after Bin Ladin considering it might have been difficult to get UN approval. We did oust the Taliban after all, the ruling government of Afganistan for no other reason than they support terrorists and general bad demeanor.

 

As far as destroying preserves maybe he wont but owning more than one house, a fleet of cars, a boat as big as some homes, and a private jet kind of disqualify him as an evironmentalist. <_<

[Weiser_Cain]

Noone was going to stand in the wayt of that war and anyway if there's one thing I agree with bush on it's that we don't need no stinking permission to go to war.

[Product of the Cosmos]

Don't really care about that.  Its the past and I am more converned about the present.  Bush hasn't done jack here on the Domestic front so I am voting for Kerry. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Out of the frying pan and into another frying pan, if you ask me. I personally think Kerry will, if elected, turn out to be one of America's worst nightmares.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol. I think the next 4 years will be some of Americas worse nightmares regardless.

 

 

But do you say that in light of Cheney saying there will be terrorist attacks if Kerry is elected?! That is a bit eery. lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yeah i know what you mean the terrorist groups are getting more organized due to the hunt for them. I wouldn't be surprized if they take out one of our cities with a dirty bomb or a chemical weapon. I mean its not that hard to get one in to the country through the northern border.

 

who ever is elected will have to deal with the real threat of a WMD getting set off in the USA. Considering iraq did have WMD but so far the USA has found zero of them...meaning the were taken out of the country before the troops were deployed. My bet is they are in terrorist hands now and all they need is a way to transport it to there targets. I mean the targets don't always have to be american any euro nation will do...like france for example.

 

scary thoughts to be sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ya. It amazes me that nothing has been done yet. After 9-11 I created a MASSIVE amount of pissed/fearful off people by saying what I would do if I was a terrorist(which would basically cripple the USA's infrastructure for a variable amount of time). You wouldn't even need WMD to do so. If they are in the USA, have even remotely what Bush was saying they have after 9-11, many things are imminent. And there's no stoppin all of them.

 

Very simple easy things too. Too cause about a month of craziness in our business system, as well as transportation. If they are as internet savvy as many think they also have probably been hacking a modified or creating an original virus for the internet as well.

 

But I tend to think the terrorist situation at home is majorly over-exagerated by the Bush admin.. And the major media. If not, heh, lets hope they have absolutly no IQ's. And if 9-11 was indeed, a terrorist attack with all the 'majorly accepted in America' belief of what happened on 9-11. They most certainly are very intelligent and skilled.

 

"Still voting for kerry, though I'll admit I'm a little worried he won't kill as many people as bush."

 

*speechless*

 

 

"Atually would Kerry have even went after Bin Ladin considering it might have been difficult to get UN approval."

 

The whole world was rallying behind us after 9-11. The whole world DID support us going after Bin Laden. Where were you? North Pole?

 

That all changed when Bush used it to invade Iraq. It's not like the second you start paying attention, it's been thise way forever. Practically every country was ready to help us to get Bin Laden. Minus a small number. And they aren't big chairs in the UN by any means. lol.

[Weiser_Cain]

Ya.  It amazes me that nothing has been done yet.  After 9-11 I created a MASSIVE amount of pissed/fearful off people by saying what I would do if I was a terrorist(which would basically cripple the USA's infrastructure for a variable amount of time).  You wouldn't even need WMD to do so.  If they are in the USA, have even remotely what Bush was saying they have after 9-11, many things are imminent.  And there's no stoppin all of them.

 

  Very simple easy things too.  Too cause about a month of craziness in our business system, as well as transportation.  If they are as internet savvy as many think they also have probably been hacking a modified or creating an original virus for the internet as well. 

 

  But I tend to think the terrorist situation at home is majorly over-exagerated by the Bush admin..  And the major media.  If not, heh, lets hope they have absolutly no IQ's.  And if 9-11 was indeed, a terrorist attack with all the 'majorly accepted in America' belief of what happened on 9-11.  They most certainly are very intelligent and skilled.

You be surprised at just how resilient our infrastructure actually is, they have zero chance of doing anything in the long run but make it harder for muslims in this country(I'm indiffrent to this). I'd actually like to see what they have planned next(though I wonder if I'll die in the next attacks if they happen here) since I don't think they'll have the desired effect. Call it morbid curiosity.

[kumquatq3]

who ever is elected will have to deal with the real threat of a WMD getting set off in the USA. Considering iraq did have WMD but so far the USA has found zero of them...meaning the were taken out of the country before the troops were deployed. My bet is they are in terrorist hands now and all they need is a way to transport it to there targets. I mean the targets don't always have to be american any euro nation will do...like france for example.

 

scary thoughts to be sure.

 

Not sure where you got your evidence for that

[chemchok]

^ Maybe they're all underneath his bed.

[Dakoth]

The whole world was rallying behind us after 9-11. The whole world DID support us going after Bin Laden. Where were you? North Pole?

 

No but I am smart enough to know that the reason nothing was really said about what we did was because he was residing in Afganistan a fairly insignificant world player. Would the UN had been so compliant with us running in and beating up on other countries like Saudi Arabi, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or Chechnya? What you have to remeber is while the UN was built for wonderful reasons politics still play a huge roll in it. Each countries representetive is only worried about one thing and that is his countries best interests, as it should be. I just don't understand why people think we are bad for being worried about our best interests.

[Judge Hades]

In the end, it doesn't matter who will be president. THe USA is on a downward spiral and it will continue that downward spiral. The damage Bush Jr. has done is enough that no matter who is president there will be more attacks on US soil. There will be more hatred and discontent against the US. And yes, we will waste more money and lives on useless endaevors to stop it.

 

Just because of one little thing, their are certain elements of the US government that can't stop interfering with the policies of other nations. As long as we keep interfering in places we do not belong there will be resentment.

[Dakoth]

Just because of one little thing, their are certain elements of the US government that can't stop interfering with the policies of other nations. As long as we keep interfering in places we do not belong there will be resentment.

 

That is something that goes beyond party lines.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter who will be president. THe USA is on a downward spiral and it will continue that downward spiral. The damage Bush Jr. has done is enough that no matter who is president there will be more attacks on US soil.

 

Wasn't the first World Trade Center attack during Clintons administration? Wouldn't that have made his policies just as inefectual and likely to have caused further attacks as much as what Bush is doing now. Hind sight would say yes.

[Judge Hades]

Sure, Clinton is to blame as well, but I think the origins of the problems we are facing now predates both presidents.

[Product of the Cosmos]

Ya.  It amazes me that nothing has been done yet.  After 9-11 I created a MASSIVE amount of pissed/fearful off people by saying what I would do if I was a terrorist(which would basically cripple the USA's infrastructure for a variable amount of time).  You wouldn't even need WMD to do so.  If they are in the USA, have even remotely what Bush was saying they have after 9-11, many things are imminent.  And there's no stoppin all of them.

 

  Very simple easy things too.  Too cause about a month of craziness in our business system, as well as transportation.  If they are as internet savvy as many think they also have probably been hacking a modified or creating an original virus for the internet as well. 

 

  But I tend to think the terrorist situation at home is majorly over-exagerated by the Bush admin..  And the major media.  If not, heh, lets hope they have absolutly no IQ's.  And if 9-11 was indeed, a terrorist attack with all the 'majorly accepted in America' belief of what happened on 9-11.  They most certainly are very intelligent and skilled.

You be surprised at just how resilient our infrastructure actually is, they have zero chance of doing anything in the long run but make it harder for muslims in this country(I'm indiffrent to this). I'd actually like to see what they have planned next(though I wonder if I'll die in the next attacks if they happen here) since I don't think they'll have the desired effect. Call it morbid curiosity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? You think we would rebound quickly to an attack like this:

 

-I-80 Crippled.

 

-1-5 Crippled.

 

-I-70 Crippled.

 

-Hwy 101 Crippled

 

-Major east coast bottlenecks crippled.

 

-Border between WA and OR bridge blown up.

 

-Bay Bridges blown up.

 

-Viruses being given out through fast food chains(as a job there is rather easy to get).

 

-Bombs on planes by luggage bombs.

 

-Bombs in postal office planes through bombs in packages

followed by a video saying they will send their full attacks on hijacking planes making every flight in the country grounded.

 

-Attack on Washington DC on monuments and buildings.

 

-Bombs in numerous of our top buildings. Government and Financial buildings their priority.

 

-Viruses released in subway systems

 

-Rail meccas like Eugene Oregon's railway systems crippled.

 

-Nuclear plant infiltrated and caused to meltdown.

 

These are just things off the top of my head... If I was planning such an attack for years. I'm sure there would be many more obvious important and easy to take out structures in our system.

 

Unfortunatly a lot of these if planned, have an extremely unlikely chance to be stopped.

 

"In the end, it doesn't matter who will be president. THe USA is on a downward spiral and it will continue that downward spiral. The damage Bush Jr. has done is enough that no matter who is president there will be more attacks on US soil. There will be more hatred and discontent against the US. And yes, we will waste more money and lives on useless endaevors to stop it.

 

Just because of one little thing, their are certain elements of the US government that can't stop interfering with the policies of other nations. As long as we keep interfering in places we do not belong there will be resentment."

 

I agree.

 

"The job of the President is not to wield power himself, but to lead attention away from it."

-Douglas Adams

 

But we have less to blame on Presidents, and more to blame on the real power in America. Corporations and interest groups. Those who really run our actions. Bush has done his job well, according to the Douglas Adams quote I provided.

[Dakoth]

Really? You think we would rebound quickly to an attack like this:

 

-I-80 Crippled.

 

-1-5 Crippled.

 

-I-70 Crippled.

 

-Hwy 101 Crippled

-Major east coast bottlenecks crippled

 

Just out of curiosity how would you "cripple" those road ways? More interested in I-80 as that is one am familiar with?

 

-Attack on Washington DC on monuments and buildings.

 

-Bombs in numerous of our top buildings. Government and Financial buildings their priority.

 

-Viruses released in subway systems

 

-Rail meccas like Eugene Oregon's railway systems crippled.

 

-Nuclear plant infiltrated and caused to meltdown

 

Unfortunatly a lot of these if planned, have an extremely unlikely chance to be stopped..

 

I put the question to you again how would the attacks on any of these "cripple" our infrastructure?

[chemchok]

There was an interesting Frontline episode titled "Cyber War" that covered the threat of cyber terrorist attacks. Read through it if you have the time, it's extremely interesting.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cyberwar/

 

This interview is particularly ominous, it's with the man in charge of the Information Operations Red Team and Assessments (IORTA) group, the government group that intentionally probes US sites for security defects, both physically, as in sneaking weapons past airport security guards, inflitrating nuclear power plant security, etc. and through electronic means.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ews/skroch.html

 

Excerpt:

 

Q: Could your team, if you wanted to, take down the entire [electrical] grid in the United States?

 

A: The IDART red team could demonstrate numerous vulnerabilities and system effects against U.S. critical infrastructure that are scenario-dependent and adversary-dependent. We do this so that we can help improve the systems so that they can't be taken down in the future, and a cyber Pearl Harbor won't affect the U.S. infrastructures.

 

Q: But could you if you wanted to?

 

A: I won't answer that question. ...

 

Terrorists could cripple vital infrastructure through the internet, including dams, the electrical grid, ATMs, etc. Even if the event did not result in catastrophic physical damage it could easily cripple the US economy.

[Product of the Cosmos]

And if my information sources are correct. They are extremely intelligent when it comes to the internet. A group of hackers were put together to track and find terrorist activeties. They played a large role in finding many terrorist paper trails. But since most of them were 'criminals', the US government stopped their operations. We can't handcuff our biggest talent because they don't have perfect backrounds when they are giving such pivitol information!

 

I-80 is a HUGE Insterstate for business, probably the biggest and most used. There are plenty of stretches going up over large hills. An explosion taking out a large chunk in certain sections of this Interstate would definetly stop thousands of trucks from getting to where they need to be.

 

I-80 is also the largest military transport interstate in the country I'm pretty sure as well.

 

Taking out the bridge between Oregon(Portland) and Washington(Vancouver) would cause HUGE problems. As would taking the bay bridges down.

 

With the said things done thousands of business' would not be in business. Many people woudl not be able to get home, or to work. Hospitals would be overflowing. DC would be in Chaos and a military state.

 

Too many things to mention..

 

BTW, thx for the links chem. I'll definetly check those out a bit later!

[Dakoth]

Terrorists could cripple vital infrastructure through the internet, including dams, the electrical grid, ATMs, etc. Even if the event did not result in catastrophic physical damage it could easily cripple the US economy.

 

As could any number of Hackers if getting into heeps of trouble didn't bother them. The big problem with living in the computer age is it not. The question is how long would it take our government to get those things up and running again after the attack that is the question that needs to be answered. You need to remember there is no physical damage done to the infrastructure we would just lose control of it. If there was an extended period those grids were down lets say a month or more it would definately hurt the economy if they were back up and running in days what kind of effect would that have?

[Product of the Cosmos]

In the time it would take to get it back up many of our 'paper' records could be dealt with as well.

 

The options they have are somewhat limitless. So if they truly are an organized group. uh oh.

[Dakoth]

I-80 is a HUGE Insterstate for business, probably the biggest and most used. There are plenty of stretches going up over large hills. An explosion taking out a large chunk in certain sections of this Interstate would definetly stop thousands of trucks from getting to where they need to be.

 

I-80 is also the largest military transport interstate in the country I'm pretty sure as well.

 

Is it the only way to get cross country? Are there not exit ramps off the interstates that could be used to bypass the damage? Since it is unlikel they could damage more than a small portion of it don't you think construction crews could get a road laid fairly quickly enough to get it back on its feet.

 

Taking out the bridge between Oregon(Portland) and Washington(Vancouver) would cause HUGE problems. As would taking the bay bridges down.

 

Huge problems does not necessarily mean those areas would be crippled as there is almost always more than one way into a city.

 

With the said things done thousands of business' would not be in business. Many people woudl not be able to get home, or to work. Hospitals would be overflowing. DC would be in Chaos and a military state.

 

Too many things to mention..

 

Thats is if they could do any of those things in a conserted effort to hurt us. Not something terrorism is know for. Which is why 9-11 was such a shock because it was more of a military type attack than a terrorist attack. It would be highly unlikely to see all of those things happen at one time which would be the only way they could through the US in to utter chaos. There is Chemlocs wasy but as I said it would really depend on how fast the grid was brought back online.

[Product of the Cosmos]

Dakoth there are sections of I-80, and just about every interstate, that are extremely pivitol. We have too much traffic as it is. Taking out pivitol traffic areas would be devastating.

 

Traffic in the Portland area is HORRIBLE, same as Seattle. If ANY of the major traffic areas were taken out in either of these cities. We would be in 3 hour traffic jams everyday. There are traffic jams here at 10 at night! Its taken me 3 hours alone to get through Seattle before! And thats WITH a functional interstate system.

 

"Huge problems does not necessarily mean those areas would be crippled as there is almost always more than one way into a city."

 

There are not many ways into Portland from Washington, other then the I-5 bridge. Otherwise be ready to travel quite a long ways. With an easy fews bombs, they could disconnect states from each other! And bridges take a LONG time to build. If not be crippled, majorly hampered it would be.

[Atreides]

In the end, it doesn't matter who will be president.  THe USA is on a downward spiral and it will continue that downward spiral.

 

Your only hope is to move to China (which happens to be on the up against most trends) and hope you grab on of the outsourced jobs. The food's probably better too

[Product of the Cosmos]

LMAO I got a nice laugh out of Ralph Naders proposal. Outsource Chinas CEOs here! LMAO! They'll work for 1/10th the price, probably harder.

[Weiser_Cain]

-I-80 Crippled.

 

-1-5 Crippled.

 

-I-70 Crippled.

 

-Hwy 101 Crippled

 

-Major east coast bottlenecks crippled.

 

-Border between WA and OR bridge blown up.

 

-Bay Bridges blown up.

 

I fail to see how this will cripple our infrastructure as there are always alternate roads and it takes about a day to clear and lay down a significant amount of asphalt

Taking out bridges again just screws local trafic.

 

-Viruses being given out through fast food chains(as a job there is rather easy to get).

It's also easy to infect yourself in this setting. Plus, no one is going to notice the new guy bringing vials of clear or cloudy liquid he likes to pour on the infidels cheeseburgers?

 

-Bombs on planes by luggage bombs.

 

-Bombs in postal office planes through bombs in packages

followed by a video saying they will send their full attacks on hijacking planes making every flight in the country grounded.

those packages are checked for this sort of thing, if anything slips through it'll just insure better checks.

 

-Attack on Washington DC on monuments and buildings.

Infrastructure?

 

-Bombs in numerous of our top buildings.  Government and Financial buildings their priority.

Like to see them try, most of our 'top' government and financial buildings aren't well known and are spread across this beutiful country of ours. They'd need an army.

 

-Viruses released in subway systems

Some guy already tried to do this here. At least here in chicago it's kind of hard to move around the subway if you don't belong there, Again how do you prevent poisoning yourself in this setting. And anyway with the constant excange of air and the seperate lines this guy'd have to have gallons of the stuff and ride the subway for a year just to get to every line.

 

-Rail meccas like Eugene Oregon's railway systems crippled.

How they get to be rail mecca? Well chicago's no slouch. Lot's of trains here, I find it hard to belive that you're going to be able to do what it takes to stop a train and get away, drive across town to do it again without a, getting killed and or recored in the act, and b, noticed by the cops.

 

-Nuclear plant infiltrated and caused to meltdown.

Now this has a chance of actually happening. But happening on a scale that could threaten our infrastructure? No.

 

The country is simply too big for any attacks from these guys to have more than a symbolic effect.