Suggestion: Don't recycle BioEvil!

[CastleBravo]

A striking thing about KOTOR is the extreme degree to which it recycles the kinds of evil you see in NWN. This isn't a great insight or anything, but I haven't seen anybody bring it all together in one topic. So here goes:

 

High-school punk evil. See: everyone on Korriban except for the tattoo-headed instructor and his apprentice, maybe half of your own dark-side-point-gaining dialogue options, and 99% of your "evil" dialogue options in NWN. Lots of people complain about this in Bioware games, especially NWN and KOTOR. Being evil boils down to being randomly, stupidly mean; selecting smart-ass dialogue options; and helping little kids beat up a 400 pound Ithorian.

 

Box Cover Woman evil. You need at least one woman who starts off good, goes evil, then (depending on your dialogue choice at the end) is either redeemed, or killed. She must be featured heavily in the game

[Darth Sirius]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion? That is just what you disliked about it isnt it? Come up with an idea better than the ones you have mentioned and maybe we can talk

[CastleBravo]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

[GhostofAnakin]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What you posted was basically a complaint, not a suggestion. Suggestion implies you "suggest" an alternative route they should have taken, or alternative solutions they didn't think of. You just pointed out what you felt they did wrong, but didn't provide examples/theories about what you think they should have done. Simply saying "don't recycle" doesn't exactly add any suggestions.

[CastleBravo]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What you posted was basically a complaint, not a suggestion. Suggestion implies you "suggest" an alternative route they should have taken, or alternative solutions they didn't think of. You just pointed out what you felt they did wrong, but didn't provide examples/theories about what you think they should have done. Simply saying "don't recycle" doesn't exactly add any suggestions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure it does. "Don't do something" is a perfectly valid suggestion. There is nothing wrong with giving negative examples to avoid. If I got food poisoning at an Italian restaurant, I am perfectly justified in telling you to NOT eat there, even if I don't have a suggestion for a better Italian restaurant to eat at instead. Saying otherwise is just being silly. Your argument is basically that I should shut up and let you go get food poisoning because I don't have a catalog of Italian restaurants handy.

[Darth Sirius]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What you posted was basically a complaint, not a suggestion. Suggestion implies you "suggest" an alternative route they should have taken, or alternative solutions they didn't think of. You just pointed out what you felt they did wrong, but didn't provide examples/theories about what you think they should have done. Simply saying "don't recycle" doesn't exactly add any suggestions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you GoA, at least you realized what I meant

[KOTORFanactic]

This should be moved to general discussion. i see no suggestions here.

[Darth Sirius]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What you posted was basically a complaint, not a suggestion. Suggestion implies you "suggest" an alternative route they should have taken, or alternative solutions they didn't think of. You just pointed out what you felt they did wrong, but didn't provide examples/theories about what you think they should have done. Simply saying "don't recycle" doesn't exactly add any suggestions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure it does. "Don't do something" is a perfectly valid suggestion. There is nothing wrong with giving negative examples to avoid. If I got food poisoning at an Italian restaurant, I am perfectly justified in telling you to NOT eat there, even if I don't have a suggestion for a better Italian restaurant to eat at instead. Saying otherwise is just being silly. Your argument is basically that I should shut up and let you go get food poisoning because I don't have a catalog of Italian restaurants handy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well as this isnt marios pizzeria and it isnt the 'things to leave out of TSL's' its the suggest forum, I suggest *snigger* you suggest something to reinforce your argument or simply post it in the general discussion board, then everyones happy sheesh

[GhostofAnakin]

Erm you seem to have lost me, what is your suggestion?

 

Gee, I would have thought it was obvious... don't hurt your head trying to figure it out or anything.

 

HINT: Read the title of the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What you posted was basically a complaint, not a suggestion. Suggestion implies you "suggest" an alternative route they should have taken, or alternative solutions they didn't think of. You just pointed out what you felt they did wrong, but didn't provide examples/theories about what you think they should have done. Simply saying "don't recycle" doesn't exactly add any suggestions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure it does. "Don't do something" is a perfectly valid suggestion. There is nothing wrong with giving negative examples to avoid. If I got food poisoning at an Italian restaurant, I am perfectly justified in telling you to NOT eat there, even if I don't have a suggestion for a better Italian restaurant to eat at instead. Saying otherwise is just being silly. Your argument is basically that I should shut up and let you go get food poisoning because I don't have a catalog of Italian restaurants handy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, using your example, you telling me not to eat at an Italian restaurant would stop there without an explanation or reason WHY I shouldn't eat there. Your first post just said "don't do that" without giving a reason why or a viable alternative. So that would be like you telling me not to eat at an Italian restaurant and me asking why not, so your response is "just don't eat there".

 

That doesn't tell me why I shouldn't eat there, and also doesn't give me an alternative place to eat since I will need to find food elsewhere.

[ShinIchiro]

Come on people, I can see a suggestion hidden in there (or a potential one at least). Let's not get nitpicky. Besides, if you're going to really be picky, you might as well say the suggestions forum is a discussion forum since our input won't affect KOTOR 2... Anyway, I and many have agreed that the evil is too thug-like. Being evil is about hurting peoples feelings, making them cry, and stealing their money here...

[CastleBravo]

My, aren't we pedantic around here, ladies.

 

"No, using your example, you telling me not to eat at an Italian restaurant would stop there without an explanation or reason WHY I shouldn't eat there."

 

Do I have to explain why copying large aspects (that weren't particularly well liked, by the way) from one game and sticking them into another game (where they weren't particularly well liked there, either) is a bad idea to carry on into a third game (where, I'm betting, they would STILL annoy people)? Do I need to draw you a picture or something?

 

To beat an analogy to death, so maybe I'm barfing up spaghetti, pointing at the restaurant, and shaking my head. Are you going to just stand there and act peevish until I whip out a copy of the latest Zagat survey or something? Would it kill y'all to discuss the issues raised instead of start some fussy argument about what a suggestion is?

 

In any case, I edited my starting post to spell it out for everyone.

[ShinIchiro]

come on poeple...the man has a point about the game!

[Darth Sirius]

My, aren't we pedantic around here, ladies. 

 

"No, using your example, you telling me not to eat at an Italian restaurant would stop there without an explanation or reason WHY I shouldn't eat there."

 

Do I have to explain why copying large aspects (that weren't particularly well liked, by the way) from one game and sticking them into another game (where they weren't particularly well liked there, either)  is a bad idea to carry on into a third game (where, I'm betting, they would STILL annoy people)?  Do I need to draw you a picture or something? 

 

To beat an analogy to death, so maybe I'm barfing up spaghetti, pointing at the restaurant, and shaking my head.  Are you going to just stand there and act peevish until I whip out a copy of the latest Zagat survey or something?  Would it kill y'all to discuss the issues raised instead of start some fussy argument about what a suggestion is? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, we ARENT making a fussy argument over what a suggestion is, but this has been milled over many many times before! And your post wasnt a suggestion because the only thing you suggested was what you didnt like, first off we know the DS is thuggish, we know its childish and very unevil, as well as taken from every other sort of comic evil in the game/movie industry, we know that its boring and the only way to get DS points is to take dinner money from school children! So in response we have discussed the issue when it was raise a couple of hundred times before, thats why Im struggling to grasp you point! exactly what sort of evil are you looking for?

[GhostofAnakin]

My, aren't we pedantic around here, ladies. 

 

"No, using your example, you telling me not to eat at an Italian restaurant would stop there without an explanation or reason WHY I shouldn't eat there."

 

Do I have to explain why copying large aspects (that weren't particularly well liked, by the way) from one game and sticking them into another game (where they weren't particularly well liked there, either)  is a bad idea to carry on into a third game (where, I'm betting, they would STILL annoy people)?  Do I need to draw you a picture or something? 

 

To beat an analogy to death, so maybe I'm barfing up spaghetti, pointing at the restaurant, and shaking my head.  Are you going to just stand there and act peevish until I whip out a copy of the latest Zagat survey or something?  Would it kill y'all to discuss the issues raised instead of start some fussy argument about what a suggestion is? 

 

In any case, I edited my starting post to spell it out for everyone. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You seem to miss the point that we're not suggesting your cristisisms aren't warranted. They are, indeed, very valid. The point is you didn't SUGGEST any alternatives.

 

If these elements are taken out of the game, the game then needs other items to fill in the gaps. You never bothered to implement new ideas. So basically, the game isn't improved, it's just shortened if they use your "suggestion".

 

Basically, this is what's missing from your original post:

 

What do you suggest they do instead then, to make the game better, assuming they removed the things you listed?

[Eddo36]

What the heck is BioEvil? I hope you guys aren't talking about BioWare.

[Adria Teksuni]

No, he's referring to the types of villains (evil) Bioware uses in its previous games.

[CastleBravo]

The point is you didn't SUGGEST any alternatives.

 

So what? This isn't the "suggest alternatives" forum, it is the "Suggestions" forum, and my suggestion was to not do what was done in NWN and KOTOR concerning evil. Duh?

 

I suggested things to AVOID doing. I'm not compelled to suggest alternatives on every single topic of discussion simply because it would be more pleasing to you.

[Sugrob]

CastleBravo,

 

You're making a valid point, the one I can agree with.

 

I would only wish you not to indulge yourself in such infantile arguing with someone who clearly have nothing better to do. Ignoring is the best argument you can make against such people.

[ShinIchiro]

I'd definately agree that there is a problem here. The villans are all "HAHAHA I AM EVIL. NOW GIVE ME YOUR MONEY BEFORE I KILL EVERY PERSON I CAN FIND". I haven't played that many bio-games, but I notice that pattern even with my limited experience (and it was definately there in KOTOR).

[Mace Windu]

Box Cover Woman evil.  You need at least one woman who starts off good, goes evil, then (depending on your dialogue choice at the end) is either redeemed, or killed.  She must be featured heavily in the game

[CastleBravo]

Box Cover Woman evil.  You need at least one woman who starts off good, goes evil, then (depending on your dialogue choice at the end) is either redeemed, or killed.  She must be featured heavily in the game

[Darth Sirius]

Well I'm not an expert on obsidian, and I've never played another game that they have made, but from what I have heard they are a world away from Bioware in the evil depiction stakes.....So I have VERY high hopes for this game.....And I have a feeling they will deliver.....Don't you let me down obsidian! I like to play evil :ph34r: and I actually want to feel evil this time.