Ciphers, or what is this and how do you use it 😜

[NobodyHere]

Ok, so… ciphers. I’ve never ever used one because I just couldn’t mesh with it. So I’m trying, as a main, to see if I can make them click for me. Figure once I ‘get it’ I’ll be able to use a cipher companion. My main issues: 

- spells like shock seem good, average casting time, etc. I tried putting an 18 dex just to see if that was my problem, but no. The spell casts quickly with 18 dex naked … and then nothing happens. Still nothing. Calista swings twice. Finally spell triggers and hits one wolf cause the other one is dead. I mean wtf is that 1-2 seconds after-cast delay before the spell hits? I mean it says ‘average casting time ‘ but compared to wizards spells, this seems ridiculously slow? Are all cipher spells like these? (Only tried a few lvl 1s) don’t you have serious interrupt issues when he decides to stare into the ether and ponder whether he should in fact cast the spell he already technically sort of cast?

another example, I tried charm on the big bear, bear nearly murdered me because it took so long to decide to actually cast. (Then antipathic ray’s the cub and killed mama with the ray, that was kinda cool..) but .. that ray is a murder ray. I have never ever gotten a companion killed … until today. Calista rip, death by suicide AI into death ray. Not that she was touching it mind you. But being close was apparently enough.

- it seems many spells are medium to short range (except murder ray, sigh…) so while ranged cipher sounded good (I was even thinking weapon switching to generate massive focus quickly) … is it as uncomfortable to play due to the short range spells as it seemed in my lvl 1 play? Or do I need to heavily invest in mobility? (Talent, boots etc) to keep moving back and forth. (I find when at short range melee are more tempted to abandon a tank for the squishy, and without distance (and with ridiculous casting times) I just don’t see myself surviving , specially when compared to a wizard (arcane veil and shield swap, blind, or prone or or or) is this about right? Or do we get actually fast casting ( ie without the delay of death) spells at higher levels that would work?

- is there a list of which spells are openers/cast able before combat starts? Is that little confuse lvl 1 thing thing as useful as it seems just because it works as an opener even if the rest of it is subpar?

Which are actually useful spells? So far my short list seems to be ,

- shock cause melees are usually swarmed, but casting time is an issue

- charm, cause charming an enemy next to a caster is bound to ruin a casters day. range is (barely) ok. Higher level charm has a shorter range so that makes it less useful?
- death ray, for when you want to suicide or I guess when you’re a front liner and target an archer. Pity it doesn’t work like ray of fire (pity ray of fire doesn’t have this things range though..) 

- tenuous grasp as an opener. Can’t help but think bear thing might have been safer if I started with this vs a cub, then charm bear, and then murder ray it. 
 

- is mind wave useful? I mean.. prone vs fortitude seems fine vs casters but often they’ll be out of range, and it seems horrible vs heavy melee types? Same reason I’m thinking eye strike isn’t as good as it first looks, might want to just pop a wizards blind..? I mean at least it’s 10m ..?
 

any other insights specially from ppl who love this class are appreciated. 

[Boeroer]

I think the biggest mistake of players who try Ciphers is that they use the damaging powers first and foremost. 

But imo that's the worst way to spend your focus.

CC, especially the disabling kind, has much more impact than dealing damage. The most impactful CC effect is mind control (in PoE: confused, charmed, dominated) because it not only "disables" an enemy but even turns it into an ally. It's like disabling an enemy and calling forth a summon at the same time.

If you can have both (cc + damage with one spell) that's great, too. But simply turning focus into plain damage is not (there are exceptions such as Disintegrate).

Instead of dealing damage with a weapon in order to deal further damage with a spell you might as well continue to deal damage with the weapon (and get more focus). Why switch from weapon to spell if the outcome is basically the same?

I am not a big fan of the Cipher's mechanic (weapon damage fuels spells) because the action economy is pretty bad and the focus generation suffers if you fight very strong enemies (when you need the focus most). They are the opposite of per-rest casters: cannot do much in easier fights (if you don't want to rest all the time) but really shine if the tough fights (when they can spam all those impactful spells without waiting for resources to build up). 

When retaliation still worked for generating focus it was the perfect solution for the action economy problem. Unfortunately the devs nerfed that: retaliation doesn't generate focus anymore.

 

[NobodyHere]

Omg thank you! You summed up my main problem perfectly! The only way it justifies no longer doing damage with your weapon is if you can then do massive damage with a spell, which you can’t when the cipher takes a while to cast it (opportunity cost, not doing anything = 0 dps and also tanks burst damage, until he finally casts) , or doing amazing CC, which you need to do RIGHT NOW usually, not in 10 seconds when I gathered enough focus and finish smelling the roses for the spell to finally cast. 

passive retaliation focus would have solved this amazingly well. Pity. 

as always, thanks for the insight. Also, I guess no ciphers in my future lol, I’ll learn to live with my disappointment by having a Druid murder everything with storms

[Chaospread]

You can play a mid ranged Cipher. Blunderbuss are a good weapon at low level, then other ranged weapon can be useful to build focus (arquebuses, crossbows etc... not magical implement). Two pistols as in Deadfire should be wonderful, but you can't 
Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding, Recall Agony are the bread and butter for Ciphers, mid to long range, low cost and fast cast.
At higher levels, Tactical Meld, Time Parasite, and Defensive Mindweb are game breaking. You can play it like disabler, and when the battle last enough, you can put in your arsenal also Puppet Master, Eyestrike, Psychovampiric Shield, Pain Link , Ringleader etc... and go melee too.

Never played a Cipher for damage from spell, apart from Disintegration, the others are occasional spells or an amusement to try and forget. 
And I never trust rays or similar, too much cumbersome for myself.

But with right eq, also a melee Cipher in SOLO can make wonders  

[Boeroer]

One of the best Cipher spells in fights with lots of enemies is def. Amplified Wave. It's a fast cast, causes 8 sec prone (base) and deals good damage (38.5 base) at the same time in a pretty big AoE (4m base radius from the ally you cast it on, usually the tank). 

[Okkes]

Time parasite, durganized Tidefall, enjoy!

[Boeroer]

I usually don't give wounding weapons to ciphers: the Wounding doesn't generate focus and for some reason that feels like a waste to me then (which is a bit silly because it still deals a lot of damage anyway).

For the sake of efficiency I guess (and peace of mind) I prefer to give speed weapons to Ciphers - since that is nearly equally as good as Wounding (dps-wise) but it also generates more focus. This is especially important to me before casting Time Parasite (doesn't take as long to collect the needed focus I mean). 

For example I really like to use Blade of the Endless Paths with a Cipher on Time Parasite (I also like Marking as an enchantment in general, I think it's awesome).

Or just the good old Llawran's Stick which you can get so early. With Durance's staff as backup (with the alternative burn dmg for when you encounter crush-immune foes) I think this is a pretty nice weapon setup for a melee Cipher. Reach allows for a bit more safety, too. A bit of Durgan Steel, a cast of Time Parasite: 0 recovery with dat smacky staff.  The only gripe I have with that setup is the somewhat silly attack animation of quarterstaffs (sometimes looks like the char is swinging a sledgehammer onto an imaginary post in the ground or something).

---

Btw. speaking of Marking: a Darcozzi Paladin with Shame or Glory + Cladhaliath + Coordinated Attacks + Inspiring Exhortation can be a really good wingman for a melee Cipher - one who can remove the struggles in boss fights:

Inspiring Liberation (+10 acc), dual weapon Marking (+20 acc), Coordinated Attacks (+10 acc) and Zealous Focus (+6 acc) combined with Tactical Meld on the Cipher's side (+20 acc) lead to a whooping +66 accuracy boost for the Cipher. This lets him get decent focus against even the most defensive enemies...

This can also work at range with a Darcozzi with St. Garam's Spark or Pliambo per Casitas and a ranged Cipher. You just put them close to each other to ensure the Paladin buffs the Cipher (and not some other party member standing near to the Paladin, attacking the same target). Then ofc. only one marking weapon applies (+56 acc). 

Dual wielding Shame or Glory + Cladhaliath is the only way to get two Marking stacks. Marking from two separate party members on a third one won't stack (although Marking stacks with anything else).