Class Tier List + Discussion with Thelee

[Aestus]

Hey folks! I am a Youtuber who posted a thread a while back asking for peer review for an upcoming class tier list video I was making for Deadfire.  The video is complete and I am linking it below for anyone interested in following up. Thelee from these forums makes a guest appearance at the end to discuss the finer details of the rankings.

Here is the link:

 

[Boeroer]

Nice video. First of all your voice is pleasant and well suited for this - which is really the exception rather than the rule with (not so big) channels. Great!
I also like your explanations regarding your thought procress on every class. I do not agree on several things - but I'm able to relate to the decision making.  

I also enjoyed hearing @thelee's voice for the first time, yay!  

---

Edit: as I said before somewhere during the initial discussion I would very much like to see a list (or maybe simply a presentation) of the most enjoyable (multi)classes. Like "what makes Deadfire builds fun to play (for you)?"
And then maybe assume and speculate what might be fun for other potential players and give arguments why some stuff might be boring (yet powerful) and other stuff might be fun (even if not OP).

Maybe that could be a topic that's helpful to new players (especially the ones who don't want to play several runs but prefer to have the most fun with just one playthrough). I mean if the thought processes and reasons "why" would be equally well explained as in this video above it should be nice content, right?
It's all subjective of course - but maybe entertaining and helpful nonetheless.

Examples:
I agree that Barbarians are pretty niche in general - but it also happens to be that Berserker/Helwalker is one of the most enjoyable combos I always come back to for a fun little playthrough. It can be very powerful and especially carries the character very well in the early and mid game, yet is def. not overpowered, it has very effective synergies while it still poses a challange with its downsides. It just makes me hoot and holler when you go against weaker enemies while it's still viable against the bigger ones.
Or how a certain Arcane Archer/Chanter can be so incredibly enjoyable and great against single targets and mobs alike - despite having a class like the Ranger in it which usually focuses on the niche of "AC vs. single targets".

Yet there's also the very powerful stuff that's still very enjoyable (at least to me) which is the Mortar Monk for example (thought about it when you spoke about Resonant Touch). It's great during he mid game (INT bonus working with the mortars' AoE, Stunning Surge being awesome with mortars etc.) while it's not breaking the game in an unfun way - and when you get the really gamebreaking stuff like Whipers of the Wind + Resonant Touch + mortars' multi AoE... well it's the endgame and I think one can be allowed a little OP for the last few hours.  
Or the Psion/Troubadour which combines two very powerful classes into a very fun and powerful enough experience (when you focus on spamming different CC and damage options without pause) or into a potentially boring one which is gamebreakingly good (focus on summons and mind control). 

You already adressed it in the video above: that using very powerful stuff can be boring... but I think this topic deserves its own video. Because it's a very complex topic and highly subjective - and because a lot of people enjoy different things. I think this could lead to good engagement with viewers and also fruitful discussions. I also think this point rarely gets the attention it deserves. After all it's a game and is usually played for fun. So imo the most enjoyable characters are the most "powerful" when it comes to serving the purpose of a game so to speak.

Anyway, excuse my ramblings: again - nice video. 

Edited July 21 by Boeroer

[Aestus]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Nice video. First of all your voice is pleasant and well suited for this - which is really the exception rather than the rule with (not so big) channels. Great!

Thanks! My voice is something I work on a lot. In many ways I am bad youtuber - I'm not a good editor or sound engineer, for example - but my voice is something I do put some time and energy into, so its nice of you to notice.

Quote

as I said before somewhere during the initial discussion I would very much like to see a list (or maybe simply a presentation) of the most enjoyable (multi)classes. Like "what makes Deadfire builds fun to play (for you)?"

I usually try to answer the "what is fun to play?" question in my build videos. I think the whole point of a build is that its a mechanical/narrative concept that hooks me for an entire run, and so I share it so others can have that experience. I'm already working on some builds of my own, but it could be a good idea to make a video introducing the excellent build content already on this forum. Just brainstorming here, but you would be the perfect person to interview for that video! Your PoE1 builds in particular were invaluable for me learning the game and probably the single most influential content for how I make builds myself. Let me know if you are interested!

[Boeroer]

14 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Your PoE1 builds in particular were invaluable for me learning the game and probably the single most influential content for how I make builds myself.

Thank you!  

14 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Let me know if you are interested!

Sure.  My spoken English with that German accent might not be the most pleasant experience for listeners I guess - but who cares...?
   

[Aestus]

Quote

Sure.

Awesome! Let me think through how I'd want to do that video and I'll DM you when I'm ready.

29 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

 My spoken English with that German accent might not be the most pleasant experience for listeners I guess - but who cares...?

No one who matters cares. There are always folks in my comments nitpicking me on accent/pronunciation, and English is my only language.

[limaxophobiacq]

Solid video, between you and thelee you actually convinced me paladin probably does belong down in niche. I still really like Arcane Knight but admittedly most of the power there comes from the wizard half.

My biggest disagreement/nitpick would probably be that in my experience fighter/caster multiclasses + Tactical Barrage + Conquerors Stance are as good or stronger than Fighter/Martial multiclasses + Disciplined Strikes + Mob Stance.

[Aestus]

47 minutes ago, limaxophobiacq said:

My biggest disagreement/nitpick would probably be that in my experience fighter/caster multiclasses + Tactical Barrage + Conquerors Stance

That's a fair take. In general, casters tend to be better than martials, so it makes sense. My thoughts was just that if you're looking for a caster multi, Monks tend to overshadow everything else.

Edited July 21 by Aestus

[Boeroer]

49 minutes ago, limaxophobiacq said:

Solid video, between you and thelee you actually convinced me paladin probably does belong down in niche. I still really like Arcane Knight but admittedly most of the power there comes from the wizard half.

The power comes from stacking passive defenses with active ones (including AR). And since stacking defenses has increasing returns this class combo turns out to be a very effective one.
Also Eternal Devotion's lash works with direct damage spells which is one of the few things that can boost spell damage (besides MIG, crits and Power Level). It's not dropping any jaws but it's nice.
Steel Garrote/Bloodmage is a very good Arcane Knight combo, especially with the good old Draining Touch trick + shield. Drain health to fuel your Blood Sacrifice while dealing damage.

In the discussion one argument for the fighter was that it's a class that performs well without much attention (and with simple scripting if you use AI settings).
The same is true for the Paladin (maybe even more so because the defenses tend to be better after a while and AR is higher) - but here it sounds like that's more like a disadvantage now - because it's kind of one dimensional. The support and healing (others) parts get pretty much omitted. 

While I'm arguing for the Paladin here: it's one of my least favorite classes btw.

Edited July 21 by Boeroer

[Aestus]

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

In the discussion one argument for the fighter was that it's a class that performs well without much attention (and with simple scripting if you use AI settings).
The same is true for the Paladin

To my mind, the difference is that the Paladin tends to underperform without much attention. It doesn't need much attention in general, but that doesn't mean what it does is high impact in general.

I do want to be clear though, niche does not mean useless. There are games that have useless classes, but Deadfire isn't one of them. Every class can be a part of a top-performing build, even the Paladin.

Quote

While I'm arguing for the Paladin here: it's one of my least favorite classes btw.

I'm arguing against it, and its one of my favorite classes.

Edited July 21 by Aestus

[limaxophobiacq]

4 hours ago, Aestus said:

That's a fair take. In general, casters tend to be better than martials, so it makes sense. My thoughts was just that if you're looking for a caster multi, Monks tend to overshadow everything else.

I think the purpose of a fighter/caster multi and monk/caster multi is just different. The monk/caster is primarily trying to buff up their spells with the monk self-buffs to Int/Dex/Might/Accuracy and generally does not do that many monk things while the fighter/caster multi is actually trying to be a fighter and tank while casting.

Also positionally some caster abilities that hit a cone or a radius around the caster benefit by being on a character that can stay right in front of the enemies and take hits without a problem.

For the Cipher multiclass though Transcendant is amazingly strong and has better synergy than Psyblade. But I would say Cleric (and single-class priest) > Contemplative. For Wizard/Chanter/Druid, fighter and monk have pretty balanced pros and cons as multiclasses in my eyes.

[Goumindong]

5 hours ago, limaxophobiacq said:

I think the purpose of a fighter/caster multi and monk/caster multi is just different. The monk/caster is primarily trying to buff up their spells with the monk self-buffs to Int/Dex/Might/Accuracy and generally does not do that many monk things while the fighter/caster multi is actually trying to be a fighter and tank while casting.

 

I do not know why this is the case?

So. I can see it for like.. Unbroken and devoted. Not because they're actually better as "fighters" but because if you are going to be casting the obvious answer is Tactician. A monk does get bonuses to int/dex/might/accuracy. But a fighter gets intuitive. and (with concentration) and conqueror stance. +15 AC, +50% graze to hit and +25% hit to crit. And since you're spells first you're tactician. Which means that you can get brilliant for +1 power level and infinite spells. And if you have any spells that interrupt you can utilize them to generate more discipline which you can use to ensure you're always intuitive and have high defenses and are unbending (which might trigger on blood mage damage but definitely is just something you can use since why not). Is +30% dmg +30% action speed +100% area of effect and maybe +12 accuracy better than that? Maybe. Intuitive itself is worth about +30% damage multiplicative, +30% action speed matters a lot less if you don't have infinite spells. And OK, +100% area of effect is amazing and absurd. And you don't lose any of that when an enemy uses a dash and stabs you.

[limaxophobiacq]

3 hours ago, Goumindong said:

I do not know why this is the case?

So. I can see it for like.. Unbroken and devoted. Not because they're actually better as "fighters" but because if you are going to be casting the obvious answer is Tactician. A monk does get bonuses to int/dex/might/accuracy. But a fighter gets intuitive. and (with concentration) and conqueror stance. +15 AC, +50% graze to hit and +25% hit to crit. And since you're spells first you're tactician. Which means that you can get brilliant for +1 power level and infinite spells. And if you have any spells that interrupt you can utilize them to generate more discipline which you can use to ensure you're always intuitive and have high defenses and are unbending (which might trigger on blood mage damage but definitely is just something you can use since why not). Is +30% dmg +30% action speed +100% area of effect and maybe +12 accuracy better than that? Maybe. Intuitive itself is worth about +30% damage multiplicative, +30% action speed matters a lot less if you don't have infinite spells. And OK, +100% area of effect is amazing and absurd. And you don't lose any of that when an enemy uses a dash and stabs you.

With 'fighters' I really mean non-tactician fighters yes.

[Chaospread]

16 hours ago, Boeroer said:

especially with the good old Draining Touch trick + shield

Why the shield?
anyway, don't kid me: funnest class ever in any game is Druid, and its multi, especially Druid/Barb
Now I'm going to see the video and comment also that

[Chaospread]

22 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Thank you!  

Sure.  My spoken English with that German accent might not be the most pleasant experience for listeners I guess - but who cares...?
   

Raise the hand who wanna hear Boeroer's voice and his German accent!

[Chaospread]

On 7/21/2024 at 2:48 PM, Aestus said:

Thanks! My voice is something I work on a lot. In many ways I am bad youtuber - I'm not a good editor or sound engineer, for example - but my voice is something I do put some time and energy into, so its nice of you to notice.

And you' re one of the few english mother language who I can understand (as a rude italian poor english speaker) with low difficulty!