I think I have now understood Mob Stance and its "per threatened target"

[lewis_cb]

Hi, I thought of sharing my findings in case it is helpful to anyone in the future. Thanks to this old post which was golden. Based on my tests:

• All you need is starting a melee attack against an enemy to permanently add it to the list of threatened targets, without needing to complete it.
   
• So you can quickly start & stop an attack against each enemy, or just complete attacks vs various enemies over time, and you'll permanently get the -5% for each.
   
• If you have engagement slot(s), an enemy is added when the green arrow moves to it, which sometimes lags behind the attack when switching targets.
   
• Engaging an enemy will automatically add it to the list, without needing to start an attack against it. So more engagement slots help but are not mandatory, not even 1.
   
• If you are always attacking the same enemy, having several engagement slots will automatically give you -5% * N when such slots engage (assuming the enemies are not immune to engagement).
   
• If you are quickly switching targets, the more engagement slots the faster you will get all nearby enemies threatened because upon every target switch the engaged targets will automatically change.
   
• You can memorise which enemies you have already engaged or started an attack against, and spin around yourself switching your starting attack & engagements against whoever is missing.
   
• Being CC'ed (stunned, paralyzed, knocked down), switching weapons or moving will empty the list but using consumables won't. CC'ing a threatened enemy won't remove it but getting too far away will.
   
• If you become invisible, if the enemy doesn't go too far away it will remain threatened.
   

For a solo run this could be very powerful, as you could end up being surrounded by let's say 8 enemies (-40% recovery) or induce it by using pull effects like Into The Fray, Pull Of Eora, Implosion Charge...
 

Edit1: if without Mob Stance you have threatened so far N enemies (which you can speed up with Guardian Stance + switching attacks) and you then activate it, the -5% * N recovery is obtained instantly. It makes sense as the threatened list is unchanged.

Edit2: I just realised Entonia Signet Ring's Inviolate (+2 All Def / Engaged) scales with how many enemies engage you, not how many you engage. I find Guardian Stance less mandatory now (except if I need Persistent Distraction), both have their places.

Edited August 13 by lewis_cb

[Goumindong]

This is interesting but do you remain threatening those enemies when they die? Because it seems like, in order to get the bonus, you have to be surrounded by a huge number of enemies.

Which doesn't make it bad, but it does limit the number of enemies you can reasonably threaten by physical space. And its less useful for dangerous enemies as weaker ones die.

[Chaospread]

Simply, when there is only one enemy alive, you can switch to another stance, as warrior stance.

[lewis_cb]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:12 AM, Goumindong said:

This is interesting but do you remain threatening those enemies when they die? Because it seems like, in order to get the bonus, you have to be surrounded by a huge number of enemies.

Which doesn't make it bad, but it does limit the number of enemies you can reasonably threaten by physical space. And its less useful for dangerous enemies as weaker ones die.

No, when an enemy is killed it is removed from the threatened list, but if there are more melee enemies waiting to reach you one will occupy that space (or you could use Into The Fray to pull ranged enemies).

Yeah, physical space limits it, to a maximum of 8 I reckon.

One thing you could do is leave the weak enemies for the end and focus first on the dangerous ones.

[Chaospread]

23 hours ago, lewis_cb said:

Yeah, physical space limits it, to a maximum of 8 I reckon.

Is this true also for quarterstaffs and pikes which have a greater range than others melee weapons?

[Boeroer]

I don't know about "threatening", but engagement doesn't work with reach. It is limited to the normal 0.8m melee distance. 

[Boeroer]

Somewhere out there is a video from the closed beta of PoE in which pikes and quarterstaffs had engagement for their whole reach - and somebody put his character with a pike behind a choke point and the enemies with normal melee weapons tried to get to him and where instantly murdered by countless disengagement attacks.

[Chaospread]

Thanks Boeroer, I've found here https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_(Deadfire)?so=search#Threat
this extract:

Threat

A character is threatened when they have been targeted by another character in melee, at a range of 3.5m (plus the character's radius). This occurs immediately, and before any attacks are made. Threat is similar to engagement, but threat is more immediate and is dropped as soon as either character moves, or otherwise becomes untargetable.

    A character may only impose threat if they can engage an enemy.
    If the threatening character moves, all targets are no longer threatened, even if they are still engaged.
    Only melee attacks within 3.5m can cause a target to be threatened.
    Moving, pushed back, non-hostile, invisible, stealthed, untargetable, unconscious, or dead characters cannot be threatened.

So it appears as far as 3.5 meters but you need engagment slot, and not move... if you attack from 3.5 m melee, it's almost sure you're moving just after the attack...

Maybe some things changed since beta or when this wiki was written, if I can i test it, but I think it's hard because there are no so many logs about threateing

[Boeroer]

Interesting.

The only situation that I can think of where you could command a melee attack on somebody from 3.5 meters away and not have to move to execute it is with Instruments of Pain (Monk's *6 melee range ability).

Maybe abilities like Leap, Evasive Roll, Charge, Flagellant's Path and Escape also don't count as movement in this case. They don't for other purposes (such as the Wall or Blade Turning) so I guess this could work as well.

However: for what use?

Edited July 25 by Boeroer

[Chaospread]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

The only situation that I can think of where you could command a melee attack on somebody from 3.5 meters away and not have to move to execute it is with Instruments of Pain

Yes, indeed

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

However: for what use?

Oh, I am only discussing theoretically about mob stance post of the OP, no actual real use cases I think...  only professional deformation, I'm an engineer
But maybe fora multiclass Fighter / "another class with those abilities" it may work

[lewis_cb]

On 7/24/2024 at 7:53 AM, Chaospread said:

Is this true also for quarterstaffs and pikes which have a greater range than others melee weapons?

Good thinking, unfortunately I just tested it and it didn't work. Being surrounded I tested attacking the 2nd line of enemies with a pike and it didn't increase the Mob Stance recovery, but moving next to them and attacking did.

I have also realised that moving ever so slightly also empties the list of threatened enemies (back to -0% Mob Stance recovery).

[lewis_cb]

I strongly suspect flanked is not based on engagements but on being threatened by 2 enemies forming some 120° angle or worse.

I tested being between 2 opposite enemies who have no engagement slots and indeed I became flanked. I also tested using Grog (giving me immunity to engagement) and again I became flanked. 

Something intriguing I found out is, if you are flanked due to being between 2 opposite enemies, and for example the 1st one has no engagement but the 2nd one does, and you stagger the 2nd one (making him unable to engage and thus also to threaten I suspect), you stop being Flanked. I should probably also test it with the 1st one.

However, if you are in the same situation but this time are immune to engagement, e.g. Grog, and you stagger that 2nd enemy, you remain flanked . I can't explain why.

I'd like to test having a few enemies between 2 allies (with Grog as pet) and making my allies threaten all of them to see if they can simultaneously flank all of them. Then check if they remain flanked even after switching to some other enemy.

If so, it would align with my previous observations about the threaten mechanic. Also, flanked being based on threatened could explain how inconsistent flanked is.

Any ideas to decipher it further would be welcomed!

 

Edit: another test could be dazing myself and checking if I stop being able to threaten enemies (by checking Mob Stance recovery). I suspect so.

Edited July 27 by lewis_cb

[Chaospread]

Flanked status have had so many issues since from PoE1, I think nobody has already sorted them totally so far...

[lewis_cb]

Thank you Chaospread, I think you are right, because I tried again being flanked between 2 opposite enemies and staggering the one engaging me and sometimes I stop being flanked but sometimes I don't . I also tested staggering the one unable to engage but this never cancelled my flanked status.

 

Ok, I have now tested my previous ideas:
 

• With Grog so only threaten is in play i.e. no engagement, I tested having 2 enemies (X) between my 2 melee summons (O) like O-XX-O, then quickly command each summon to attack enemy1 > enemy2 > stop, and interestingly both enemies remained flanked, including enemy1 who my summons had stopped facing when they switched to enemy2.
   
• Without Grog so engagement is also in play, only enemy1 or enemy2 gets flanked, when the engagement arrows of both summons switch to it. This makes me believe a defender gets flanked if the attackers are currently engaging it but if any attackers have 0 engagements their application of flanked resorts to whether they have already threatened the defender or not. Maybe .
   
• If so, that is probably an oversight or bug imo because if an attacker has 0 engagements the game should resort to whether it is currently threatening the defender, not whether it has already threatened it.
   
• With Grog again (no engagements), dazing my summons didn't cancel the flanked on the enemies, in line with my previous post.
   
• While engaging some enemies (no Grog), I also tested the other idea about dazing myself and, despite becoming unable to engage, Mob Stance kept its -X% recovery and I was even able to threaten new enemies.
   
• I also now think that, not only if the defender but also if the attacker breaks the threatened / engagement / flanked, some 2s are waited before they can be reapplied again.

Edited July 29 by lewis_cb

[Chaospread]

Great research lewis_cb, from what you've discovered I guess there can be some bugs in how flanked, affliction and other status are counted and above all how the engine treat their status changes.