Advice Needed - Class Tier List

[Elric Galad]

Not 100% sure, but what I would think more acceptable (close enough for yours):

Game Breaking: Cipher, Priest
Overloaded: Wizard, Chanter, Monk
Bread-n-Butter: Druid, Rogue, Fighter (+1 tier for Tactician if you realy want it higher, or just quote Tactician as a reason to put it higher  ), Paladin (when did you rank them so low ?)
Niche: Ranger, Barbarian

Edited Monday at 02:27 PM by Elric Galad

[Aestus]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Not 100% sure, but what I would think more acceptable (close enough for yours):

Game Breaking: Cipher, Priest
Overloaded: Wizard, Chanter, Monk
Bread-n-Butter: Druid, Rogue, Fighter (+1 tier for Tactician if you realy want it higher, or just quote Tactician as a reason to put it higher  ), Paladin (when did you rank them so low ?)
Niche: Ranger, Barbarian

Ha! That's not going to happen. In my view that is out-to-lunch, and at the end of the day the video has to represent my view. Like I said though, if you or anyone else wants to discuss the alternative view on fighter in the video, I'd be happy to include your perspective.

Edited Monday at 05:31 PM by Aestus

[Elric Galad]

17 hours ago, Aestus said:

Ha! That's not going to happen. In my view that is out-to-lunch, and at the end of the day the video has to represent my view. Like I said though, if you or anyone else wants to discuss the alternative view on fighter in the video, I'd be happy to include your perspective.

Oh, I don't think Druid vs Fighter has to be discussed again (even if once more, I have concern with Unbending reliance on ressource pool which is a concern in some fights... unless playng tactician of course. Tactician is not only a great multiclass but also fix the main weakness of the main fighter asset  STOP  )

 

Paladin in the bottom tier, I have issues about this one cause I haven't much discussed.

Paladin has great tanking. Inferior to fighter, but totally independant from ressource pool and starting at lvl1 (Stoic Steel is almost broken good). Paladin is a good healer, arguably above Priest cause LoH and instant resurrection are really convenient. Auras are less varied but in the same league as Chanter. Paladin main issue is that the active ability above tier 1 are meh, so I won't see it above Bread n Butter.

But it's definitely a great multiclass. Herald is above the greatest "classic" multiclass. And it does most of its tanking and support without even requiring any action and limited ressources. Half a slot for tanking + healing + support isn't niche IMHO.

I have never read Paladin seriously qualified as bottom tier class.

 

Note that I don't have that much time right now to get involved in some video cause I'm about to house move  .

Edited Tuesday at 07:44 AM by Elric Galad

[Chaospread]

On 6/23/2024 at 11:41 PM, Elric Galad said:

Wizard is cheater tier with Cipher and Priest due to Wall of Draining though.

This one. Wiz with WoD is game breaking at least as Cipher, also more than Cipher in my opinion.

[Elric Galad]

6 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

This one. Wiz with WoD is game breaking at least as Cipher, also more than Cipher in my opinion.

Maybe the little difference is that Wiz can only cheat about itself while priest can cheat the whole party.

And Ancestor's Memory does not need a particular combo to be broken. It can save your life in any prolonged fight. Just the amount of utility it has in this context in crazy. There is even a dedicated component of my mod (Potion of Enlightenment) that is dedicated to provide alternative to this particular ability.

 

That's why out of the 3, Wiz is probably the least abusable. It stands somewhere between Overloaded and Game Breaking tier.

[Aestus]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Maybe the little difference is that Wiz can only cheat about itself while priest can cheat the whole party.

And Ancestor's Memory does not need a particular combo to be broken. It can save your life in any prolonged fight. Just the amount of utility it has in this context in crazy. There is even a dedicated component of my mod (Potion of Enlightenment) that is dedicated to provide alternative to this particular ability.

 

That's why out of the 3, Wiz is probably the least abusable. It stands somewhere between Overloaded and Game Breaking tier.

My thoughts exactly!

[Aestus]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Paladin in the bottom tier, I have issues about this one cause I haven't much discussed.

Paladin has great tanking. Inferior to fighter, but totally independant from ressource pool and starting at lvl1 (Stoic Steel is almost broken good). Paladin is a good healer, arguably above Priest cause LoH and instant resurrection are really convenient. Auras are less varied but in the same league as Chanter. Paladin main issue is that the active ability above tier 1 are meh, so I won't see it above Bread n Butter.

But it's definitely a great multiclass. Herald is above the greatest "classic" multiclass. And it does most of its tanking and support without even requiring any action and limited ressources. Half a slot for tanking + healing + support isn't niche IMHO.

I have never read Paladin seriously qualified as bottom tier class.

I love Paladins, they were actually the class that got me hooked on Deadfire, and my first 150 hours or so of the game was spent experimenting with Paladin builds.

You may have gathered that a general method I use for ranking is to list what general reasons you want to pick a class for. Broadly speaking those roles are tank, striker, support, and control. I then try to compare apples-to-apples when it comes to role. So, the best tank kit (Fighter imo) ranks highly for me, because if you want a tank you are best off taking some variation of Fighter. Similarly, the best control kit is Wizard, and Wizard ranks very highly. Its a low resolution way of thinking about things and you don't want to depend on it for everything, but its useful as a guide.

Paladin offers two things: tanking and supporting. My assessment is that its compares pretty poorly in both roles compared to its competitors. If I want a front line tanky unit I'm going to be looking at Monk and Fighter, hell, even Wizard, before I pick Paladin. For support, cipher, priest, chanter, etc. Paladin's competitors are the best classes in the game, and so Paladin suffers in the ranking for it. 

That said, it offers a very powerful niche in a multiclass build, and that is stacking defenses to become unhittable. Its a strategy that loses a bit of its lustre when there are buttons you can press that literally make you impossible to kill, but its still good. Defenses are a mathematical bottle neck the same as health, so if you stack them high enough you just can't be killed. Stacking defenses also synergizes with some niche but powerful strategies, like Riposte or Defensive Mindweb.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

I love Paladins, they were actually the class that got me hooked on Deadfire, and my first 150 hours or so of the game was spent experimenting with Paladin builds.

You may have gathered that a general method I use for ranking is to list what general reasons you want to pick a class for. Broadly speaking those roles are tank, striker, support, and control. I then try to compare apples-to-apples when it comes to role. So, the best tank kit (Fighter imo) ranks highly for me, because if you want a tank you are best off taking some variation of Fighter. Similarly, the best control kit is Wizard, and Wizard ranks very highly. Its a low resolution way of thinking about things and you don't want to depend on it for everything, but its useful as a guide.

Paladin offers two things: tanking and supporting. My assessment is that its compares pretty poorly in both roles compared to its competitors. If I want a front line tanky unit I'm going to be looking at Monk and Fighter, hell, even Wizard, before I pick Paladin. For support, cipher, priest, chanter, etc. Paladin's competitors are the best classes in the game, and so Paladin suffers in the ranking for it. 

That said, it offers a very powerful niche in a multiclass build, and that is stacking defenses to become unhittable. Its a strategy that loses a bit of its lustre when there are buttons you can press that literally make you impossible to kill, but its still good. Defenses are a mathematical bottle neck the same as health, so if you stack them high enough you just can't be killed. Stacking defenses also synergizes with some niche but powerful strategies, like Riposte or Defensive Mindweb.

Okay, so basically you tend to rank lower the classes that provides a combination of roles. Hence the druid ranking (and you probably ended up rising it by one tier because it is the best healer, even if you don't personally rank healing as important).

 

Paladin being inferior to wiz and fighter for tanking is debattable. Paladin is the one that doesn't rely on self-buff, which I still believe to be important, especially vs dispells.

Stoic Steel is rarely mentionned, but I believe it to be the most broken paladin feature. I'm pretty sure Paladins top AR tanking by virtue of Stoic Steel (something like +3 stackable AR is EXTREMELY rare, I'm not even sure that any class gets more than +1 stackable AR), with possibly some help from Goldpact subclass. Note that this one doesn't even rely on multiclassing.

NOTES : Stoic Steel can be charged by standing still 18s before battle and isn't cancelled by "jump" abilities such as Escape and Leap.

For support, I won't argue Paladin beat Priest or Chanter, the point is that LoH is really convenient for Single Target healing. And freaking instant Rez can save the day more than once. 

 

Also Combination of roles being relevant or not also depends a lot on action economy and build cost, ressource economy. Being a damage dealer and healer is "nice to have" if you have to choose one for each action / ressource spent. But it is much more valuable if the secondary role cost few ability points, no ressource and no cast time.

That's why I think Paladins are nice. Their tanking and aura cost nothing and adds up in the background to anything the build can offer. Low action economy also means that they can wear the biggest armors and still be efficient, which synergizes well with the previously mentionned AR tanking.

That's why, for example, the Herald build is so powerful. It just stacks everything in the background and can do most of its tricks forever. (Note that I still count Chanter on a higher tier due to the sheer brokenness of Ancient Weapons and Mercy and Kindness aura).

 

I tend to be a bit dubious when people absolutely want specialists and don't consider 2 sides can actually stack up.

And once again, I've rarely read people describing Paladins as weak.

Edited Tuesday at 03:19 PM by Elric Galad

[Chaospread]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Maybe the little difference is that Wiz can only cheat about itself while priest can cheat the whole party.

You intends cipher and not priest. Anyway you (as wiz or cipher) cheat one char at time, but ok, cipher can cheat any other party member taking turns, while wiz "can't decide". A point for you.

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

And Ancestor's Memory does not need a particular combo to be broken.

Ok, wiz has so many self buffs you don't need nothing particular, or equip/consumables you can get easily, or other party members buffs... buff the wiz, send it with a WoD, you win.

In the other case, Cipher buffs someone, but ok, this way you can buff more members. I'd say if you have a (semi)God as an immortal Wiz it could be enough and balance a Cipher, but ok, better the Cipher.

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

There is even a dedicated component of my mod (Potion of Enlightenment) that is dedicated to provide alternative to this particular ability.

That had to be there as a consumable at game release in my opinion. It replace more a brilliant from Tactician than from a Cipher but if you give Brilliant as a status, any class had to be able to achieve that.

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

That's why out of the 3, Wiz is probably the least abusable

Which 3? Wiz, Cipher and Priest? Ok... I think if you have WoD and one other char you win the game as you have a Cipher and other char. Maybe is it easier with a Cipher? Ok. But Wiz is game breaking too. If you have WoD OR AM you win. But ok, you win first and easier with a Cipher.

What I wanna say is: maybe Cipher is better, but Wiz win the game the same, more than a Chanter, doesn't it?

And...

If you whole party is dead/unconsciuos/totaly disabled a part of a Wiz with WoD or a Cipher with AM: who is better?
Not to say about a Blood Mage who can beat The Ultimate...

Edited Tuesday at 03:17 PM by Chaospread

[Elric Galad]

10 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

You intends cipher and not priest. Anyway you (as wiz or cipher) cheat one char at time, but ok, cipher can cheat any other party member taking turns, while wiz "can't decide". A point for you.

Ok, wiz has so many self buffs you don't need nothing particular, or equip/consumables you can get easily, or other party members buffs... buff the wiz, send it with a WoD, you win.

In the other case, Cipher buffs someone, but ok, this way you can buff more members. I'd say if you have a (semi)God as an immortal Wiz it could be enough and balance a Cipher, but ok, better the Cipher.

That had to be there as a consumable at game release in my opinion. It replace more a brilliant from Tactician than from a Cipher but if you give Brilliant as a status, any class had to be able to achieve that.

Which 3? Wiz, Cipher and Priest? Ok... I think if you have WoD and one other char you win the game as you have a Cipher and other char. Maybe is it easier with a Cipher? Ok. But Wiz is game breaking too. If you have WoD OR AM you win. But ok, you win first and easier with a Cipher.

What I wanna say is: maybe Cipher is better, but Wiz win the game the same, more than a Chanter, doesn't it?

And...

If you whole party is dead/unconsciuos/totaly disabled a part of one Wiz with WoD o a Cipher with AM: who is better?

Well, I don't care that much whether Wizard belongs to "Game Breaking" or "Game Breaking but a bit less" category. Both are acceptable for a tier list that has to simplify a bit the considerations.

At the moment, I'm more concerned about avoiding Paladins to be put on the bottom tier 

Edited Tuesday at 03:21 PM by Elric Galad

[Aestus]

39 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Okay, so basically you tend to rank lower the classes that provides a combination of roles. Hence the druid ranking (and you probably ended up rising it by one tier because it is the best healer, even if you don't personally rank healing as important).

I wouldn't say it that way, no.  I love classes that provide a combination of roles. Take Wizard for example, it is good at tanking, striking, and control. I'd say its roughly in the top three classes in each of those roles. That's awesome! Same with the Cipher, its one of the best supports and one of the best strikers.

On the Druid,  I consider healing to be a subset within the broader support category. So Druids excel at healing, but in the broader support category I don't think they measure up to the big 3: Cipher, Priest, Chanter.

Like I said though, this kind of reasoning can only get you so far. Its just a guide, but I think it clarifies why I think Paladin belongs in Niche Tier.

 

Quote

I tend to be a bit dubious when people absolutely want specialists and don't consider 2 sides can actually stack up.

Fair enough, but that's not me. Really what I am advocating is asking the question "why do I want this class for my composition/run?" and ranking classes based on that. So if the answer is, like the wizard, that this class is a top 3 in three separate roles, that is a legitimate reason to pick it. For the Paladin, I'd say its not in the top 3 in any role. 

Let me ask you then, why do I want a Paladin in my composition/run? What does it offer that a Priest/Fighter or Priest/Wizard or Monk/Chanter or any combination of Tank + Support multiclass combo doesn't do better? Is there a reason to pick it over its competitors that isn't a very specific niche?

 

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Stoic Steel is rarely mentionned, but I believe it to be the most broken paladin feature.

I wish this wasn't the case, but I find that stacking armor isn't a very good strategy for tanking. The armor system is a well balanced system, you can be powerful with it but its takes a heavy build investment. And there are counters, like true damage or high accuracy enemies that can crit you often. So you can't depend on it as a single vector for defense. Instead, you need to build armor + defenses + healing, etc and together those add up to a heavy investment of build resources. By contrast, alternative strategies like the ones we've already discussed in this thread are NOT well balanced. They are single vector strategies that get the job done for very low build investment, allowing you to focus more resources on building for damage and CC. This was a black pill for me when I was learning the game, because I spent so much time trying to build unkillable Paladins, and then I discovered other classes could be just as unkillable with much less invested.

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the point is that LoH is really convenient for Single Target healing.

I am philosophically opposed to LoH just because of its action economy cost. We've talked about it to death, but action economy free healing is very strong in this game and it allows you to spend your action economy killing your enemies instead of just surviving. Idk if you've ever played Darkest Dungeon, but it kind of taught me this lesson, that you want to spend you actions killing and and disabling enemies if you can. Spending actions on healing is good in a pinch, when things are going poorly, but not as an overall strategy to build around. 
 

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That's why, for example, the Herald build is so powerful.

I agree that Heralds are powerful, but that is because they are half Chanter. Warcallers are even stronger and Cantors are even better than them. The Paladin part of the multi is the part I think is mediocre, and that is the part we are discussing.
 

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And once again, I've rarely read people describing Paladins as weak.

How do you think this fact should effect my opinion?

Edited Tuesday at 03:41 PM by Aestus

[Chaospread]

23 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, I don't care that much whether Wizard belongs to "Game Breaking" or "Game Breaking but a bit less" category. Both are acceptable for a tier list that has to simplify a bit the considerations.

At the moment, I'm more concerned about avoiding Paladins to be put on the bottom tier 

I'm here for you.

Paladin is the bottom tier maybe if the list would be "more fun build tier list", but Paladin is powerful.
SOLO is absolute boring but you can build an almost invincible char.
Ok, you need maybe some respec and some tricks for some particular encounter, but Paladin is easier than Ranger and Barbarian no-way.

When I want build a OP custom party Paladin is there always: great tanker, great healer, also reviving, burn damage as there will be no tomorrow, more accuracy and/or speed to everybody almost free, FoD one of the best actives of the game and exhortations are my favourite single-buff. It has some nice combo with revive/unconsious etc also.

Paladincan do support/tank/healing as second tier in all this fields, so a class that is second in 3 areas is not weak absolutely. You're right in my opinion, I think Aestus is missing somenthing

Edited Tuesday at 03:41 PM by Chaospread

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

I wouldn't say it that way, no.  I love classes that provide a combination of roles. Take Wizard for example, it is good at tanking, striking, and control. I'd say its roughly in the top three classes in each of those roles. That's awesome! Same with the Cipher, its one of the best supports and one of the best strikers.

On the Druid,  I consider healing to be a subset within the broader support category. So Druids excel at healing, but in the broader support category I don't think they measure up to the big 3: Cipher, Priest, Chanter.

Cipher is a mediocre support who has one important niche : avoid ressource depletion. And a secondary niche : being a mediocre healer, but with infinite ressource and at the cost of 1 ability point. 

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

Like I said though, this kind of reasoning can only get you so far. Its just a guide, but I think it clarifies why I think Paladin belongs in Niche Tier.

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

Fair enough, but that's not me. Really what I am advocating is asking the question "why do I want this class for my composition/run?" and ranking classes based on that. So if the answer is, like the wizard, that this class is a top 3 in three separate roles, that is a legitimate reason to pick it. For the Paladin, I'd say its not in the top 3 in any role. 

It clarifies the reaonsing, not the conclusion  

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

Let me ask you then, why do I want a Paladin in my composition/run? What does it offer that a Priest/Fighter or Priest/Wizard or Monk/Chanter or any combination of Tank + Support multiclass combo doesn't do better? Is there a reason to pick it over its competitors that isn't a very specific niche?

Because you can still complete it with another subclass. Herald for example, still beat every combination above in the persisting tanking + support department.

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

I wish this wasn't the case, but I find that stacking armor isn't a very good strategy for tanking. The armor system is a well balanced system, you can be powerful with it but its takes a heavy build investment. And there are counters, like true damage or high accuracy enemies that can crit you often. So you can't depend on it as a single vector for defense. Instead, you need to build armor + defenses + healing, etc and together those add up to a heavy investment of build resources. By contrast, alternative strategies like the ones we've already discussed in this thread are NOT well balanced. They are single vector strategies that get the job done for very low build investment, allowing you to focus more resources on building for damage and CC. This was a black pill for me when I was learning the game, because I spent so much time trying to build unkillable Paladins, and then I discovered other classes could be just as unkillable with much less invested.

Basically you need a shield, stoic steel, some source of non stackable AR and that's about it. Maybe you invested too much in Paladin defense to begin with.

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

I am philosophically opposed to LoH just because of its action economy cost. We've talked about it to death, but action economy free healing is very strong in this game and it allows you to spend your action economy killing your enemies instead of just surviving. Idk if you've ever played Darkest Dungeon, but it kind of taught me this lesson, that you want to spend you actions killing and and disabling enemies if you can. Spending actions on healing is good in a pinch, when things are going poorly, but not as an overall strategy to build around. 
 

Nobody build around healing (except when I cast Nature's Balm at the beginning of combat, but that's because it is absurdly optimal at this point and last a bit)

But are you going to pretend healing never happens ? In a party of 5, having a character using 1 healing from times to times isn't going to brutally kills your DPS. Especially if you build around DoT.

Also White Flames are exceptionnal at combining attack and healing. Most well rounded Paladin subclass IMHO. 

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

I agree that Heralds are powerful, but that is because they are half Chanter. Warcallers are even stronger and Cantors are even better than them. The Paladin part of the multi is the part I think is mediocre, and that is the part we are discussing.
 

Nope, I don't think so. Neither Warcaller not Cantor are not as good support. They almost have no spike heals (the Chanter double ray of light is mediocre at best). Double source of party-wide constant healing + Mercy and Kindness will prevent any further heal but you will still have it if needed. 

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

How do you think this fact should effect my opinion?

Because your topic is literally called "Advice needed" ? Because you asked for "peer reviews" ?

If a widespread opinion does not make you hesitant about your conclusions, why are you here to discuss   ? 

Edited Tuesday at 04:52 PM by Elric Galad

[Aestus]

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Cipher is a mediocre support who has one important niche : avoid ressource depletion.

Precisely. That is enough to make it one of the best supports in the game as far as I am concerned.
 

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But are you going to pretend healing never happens ?

I don't think I've done that. We've discussed healing a lot in this thread, and I think I've been consistent that I think its best to build around passive healing and use active healing in a pinch. Priest + Cipher can take care of the active healing and you want them in your party for other reasons anyways. So, when I am considering Paladin LoH, its a very good source of active healing, but active healing is typically low on my list of priorities I guess.

 

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Nope, I don't think so. Neither Warcaller not Cantor are not as good support.

You think Herald is better than Cantor? I'm very surprised to hear that. What am I missing? I thought we agreed that Monk offers more in a multi than practically every other class. So, what is so special about the synergy of Paladin with Chanter that overcomes that initial imbalance to you? So far you've said it has more support + burst healing. I don't see how the support of Paladin can possibly outweigh the damage, action speed, and bonus to Intellect of a monk. Even in terms of control, Monks offer Forbidden Fist which is the earliest and most spammable source of Enfeebled in the game, + the increase in duration from the +10 Intellect. When I run the simulations in my head, it really feels like the extra damage and duration on effects/buffs will mitigate more damage then the Paladin can heal.

Boeroer mentioned Zeal refreshing on summon death creating infinite zeal. That is a synergy, but it doesn't sway me much, because I don't think Zeal is a very good resource (Paladin actives are just ok), and Ancestor's Memory exists.

 

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Because your topic is literally called "Advice needed" ? Because you asked for "peer reviews" ?

If a widespread opinion does not make you hesitant about your conclusions, why are you here to discuss   ? 

I think you just answered your own question. I AM here to discuss. To dialogue. To hear people's reasoning and weigh it. The value is in hearing good arguments against my position. But gesturing to a consensus isn't an argument I can weigh. Also, I'm sure you will agree that general consensus is extremely untrustworthy. What's important is expert consensus, and even that needs to challenged and reexamined regularly.

So when I encounter a general consensus that disagrees with me I think the best reaction is not to slavishly abandon my opinion, but to rethink it, which is why I created this thread.

Edited Tuesday at 05:45 PM by Aestus

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, Aestus said:

You think Herald is better than Cantor? I'm very surprised to hear that. What am I missing? I thought we agreed that Monk offers more in a multi than practically every other class. So, what is so special about the synergy of Paladin with Chanter that overcomes that initial imbalance to you? So far you've said it has more support + burst healing. I don't see how the support of Paladin can possibly outweigh the damage, action speed, and bonus to Intellect of a monk. Even in terms of control, Monks offer Forbidden Fist which is the earliest and most spammable source of Enfeebled in the game, + the increase in duration from the +10 Intellect. When I run the simulations in my head, it really feels like the extra damage and duration on effects/buffs will mitigate more damage then the Paladin can heal.

I think monk it a bit above the rest (and high above the melee) when it comes to supporting another class through multiiclass. That being said, I don't find tons of synergy with chanter. Intellect is neat, action speed is low priority for chanter (but will help monk's own part) and the great monk summons... still won't beat chanter's.

14 hours ago, Aestus said:

 

Boeroer mentioned Zeal refreshing on summon death creating infinite zeal. That is a synergy, but it doesn't sway me much, because I don't think Zeal is a very good resource (Paladin actives are just ok), and Ancestor's Memory exists.

Ancestor's Memory will happily benefit to other party member, I guess.

Zeal is not an excellent ressources, but primarly due to excessive cost of the abilities. There are some powerful stuff to do if you have near infinite zeal.

SC Paladin can put Nimble on the whole party (no action time, and I don't think another class can do that) or heal everyone by 150hp. Or just spam White Flames for respectable attack damages while healing everyone around.

14 hours ago, Aestus said:

I think you just answered your own question. I AM here to discuss. To dialogue.

I was under the impression that your position was set.

Maybe I'm reading too fast. This is not my mother tongue, and I don't have tons of available time these days...

14 hours ago, Aestus said:

To hear people's reasoning and weigh it. The value is in hearing good arguments against my position. But gesturing to a consensus isn't an argument I can weigh. Also, I'm sure you will agree that general consensus is extremely untrustworthy.

 

14 hours ago, Aestus said:

What's important is expert consensus, and even that needs to challenged and reexamined regularly.

So when I encounter a general consensus that disagrees with me I think the best reaction is not to slavishly abandon my opinion, but to rethink it, which is why I created this thread.

General consensus (at least on this forum) is generaly trsutworthy, which does not mean it has to be followed blindly  

[Aestus]

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I was under the impression that your position was set.

Not at all! I will continue to change my opinions even after this list is released, I'm sure.

[Aestus]

@Elric Galad

On the topic of Confident Aim, you wrote:

Quote

Confident aim is meh and stacks poorly with Aware inspiration. 

I said I'd check the math and get back to you. I seemed to have lost my spreadsheet for calculating attack resolution in Deadfire, so this math is very simplistic, but I think it communicates my train of thought well.

I like to compare Graze-to-Hit with Hit-to-Crit, because I find that people naturally see the value in the latter but not the former.

Assuming Accuracy that is less than 24 above their relevant defense, Graze-to-Hit will:

• potentially proc in 25 outcomes.
• will increase damage by 100% when it procs (due to inversions).

By contrast, in the same scenario Hit-to-Crit will:

• potentially proc in 50 outcomes
• will increase damage by 25% if you Pen
• will increase damage by 55% if you OverPen

If we round that to roughly 50% increase we have an easy comparison. Graze-to-Hit procs on half the outcomes but doubles the damage increase, meaning its roughly equivalent in impact to Hit-to-Crit. So, as a VERY rough rule of thumb, a %Graze-to-Hit is equal in value to its equivalent %Hit-to-Crit.

Confident Aim gives you 30% Graze-to-Hit. By contrast, there isn't a single unconditional 30% Hit-to-Crit available in the game. If there was one, people would going crazy over it. All the while, Confident Aim is giving you roughly equivalent impact as a PL2 passive and no one looks twice at it.

Of course, as you rightly point out, the Aware inspiration gives you 50% Graze-to-Hit, and Fighters should practically always have the Aware inspiration on themselves. Now I just want to note, that is a big upside of the Fighter. It should never be counted against the Fighter that they have a perma source of 50% Graze-to-Hit; that is awesome! However, stacking will effect Confident Aim, turning that 30% to a 15%, or 65% total.

15% is still quite good though! And the 65% total is bonkers. Remember, that is roughly equivalent to 65% Hit-to-Crit! So, I'd say Confident Aim is better than "meh." However, I agree that its not a build defining feature, especially because it only works for weapons, and weapon attacking tends to be subpar to spells. 

I'll just end by stating again that I know this math is extremely rough and abstracted. There are a TON of relevant things it does not factor in. For example:

• build features like Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming which make Crit fishing a strategy worth building around in a way that avoiding Grazes is not.
• how crits effect damage when moving from UnderPen (or worse) to Pen.
• How the -100% damage from grazes will only reduce damage so far. It will not reduce to zero. 
• How having Accuracy that is more than 24 above their relevant defense effects the comparison

and many others.

My analysis above is only meant as a rough form of comparison that is useful because its easy to hold it in your head.

[thelee]

coming late to the discussion (that's what i get for being out of the country for a couple weeks), 

 

but have you considered pulling out just a certain subset of subclasses and treating them as full-fledged classes in this tier list? most subclasses aren't transformative, but some truly are.

for example, i don't think fighter is overloaded, but tactician is game breaking, to the point that i actually do not touch it in any of my runs outside of the ultimate.

similarly, there's chatter about priest being broken, but i honstly don't think priest deserves to be above "overloaded" unless we're specifically talking skaen, which is the only priest subclass that was used in any ultimate run that a priest popped up in.

[Aestus]

44 minutes ago, thelee said:

but have you considered pulling out just a certain subset of subclasses and treating them as full-fledged classes in this tier list? most subclasses aren't transformative, but some truly are.

I haven't really considered it. Here are my initial thoughts:

I have a video where I discuss class systems in CRPGs. In it I define a class choice as the choice of what leveling tree your character will progress on. A choice of subclass in Deadfire is not that. Its really just a decision you make within your leveling tree. Granted, it’s a particularly impactful one.

So on its face, treating subclasses as classes strikes me as quite arbitrary. As a comparison, Cipher's don't need to take Ancestor's Memory, its a class choice, but a particularly impactful one. Should I rank Cipher-sans-Ancestor's Memory as its own class too? Should I rank Chanters-sans-summons independently? That is how treating subclasses as classes seems to me.

In cases like Tactician, Priest of Skaen, or Bloodmage, I think its acceptable to just say “this is an unbalanced subclass, and it’s a big reason why I rank this class so high” and just leave it at that. Its an easy enough thing to say and understand, so I don’t see why I’d need to do something drastic to avoid it.

Edited 10 hours ago by Aestus

[limaxophobiacq]

5 hours ago, Aestus said:

By contrast, there isn't a single unconditional 30% Hit-to-Crit available in the game.

  

Berserker Frenzy is 30% hit-to-crit with melee IIRC.

I've read the thread but going through every comment and replying is a pain so I'll just leave my general opinion here.

 

On 6/19/2024 at 9:45 PM, Aestus said:

 

The List:

Game Breaking Tier: Cipher, Priest

Overloaded Tier: Fighter, Wizard, Monk

Bread'n'Butter Tier: Rogue, Chanter, Ranger

Niche Tier: Druid, Barbarian, Paladin.

Like others I find the high rating of ranger and fighter and low rating of druid, chanter, and paladin strange. Ranger is honestly pretty terrible single-classed (no PL scaling to speak of, bad PL 8-9 abilities) and is niche for characters who want to max out ranged weapon accuracy, which is mostly just cipher and rogue multiclasses (and for rogue I think rogue + cipher is still just better and more fun than rogue + ranger). I hate how many passives you have to spend for your pet as a non-ghost heart and for ghost heart you lose out big if you multiclass with another class that has good summons like wizard/monk/chanter.

Chanter I can't agree with, 'Called to his Bidding' alone is too busted. Using all the abilities on the weapons is a pain but getting 10 knockdowns, 10 wounding shot, 10 flames of devotion every time you summon them is ridiculous in addition to the bodies. Chanters also get the best class-specific item in the game with Sashas Singing Scimitar, which with Robes of the Weyc + the Weyc's Wand makes the chanter better at granting the rest of the party the brilliant inspiration than the cipher which is largely what makes you rate it so highly (and I'm intentionally not counting the multi-proc empower bugs and Least Unstable Coil here).

You talk about how good action economy is and chants are amazing action economy, "The long night's drink" is incredible as a passive debuff, the multiplicative damage boost to your party from -25% enemy health and +15% multiplicative fire damage with weapons if you go long nights drink + Mith Fyr costs you 0 actions.

Also sure "Each Kill Fed His Fury" is weird with how it gives +5 to attributes instead of inspirations but +5 to three attributes for your whole party with 0.5 second cast time (letting you get it up instantly) and only 4 phrases is a amazing. I've been warming up a lot to both the chanter team-attribute buffs lately despite ones weird mechanics and the others+1 phrase cost on upgrade, its just huge to give buffs this big to your whole party. It's actually turned me off from doing monk multiclasses where a lot of the power comes from the attribute bonuses and inspirations. Sure when you have fully stacking dance of death accuracy and Thunderous Blows and 10 wounds up for +10 Int its a lot of bonuses but unless it's a frontline multiclass charging up wounds with dance of death takes a lot more time than I'd like, and it's only for the monk-multi itself. I was recently considering monk/lifegiver but after consideration felt like no-subclass chanter/lifegiver (i use the unofficial patch Troubadour nerf) simply casting the team buffs and chanting mercy and kindness + ancient memory would not only heal more but also buff the party considerably while at it.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by limaxophobiacq

[Aestus]

7 minutes ago, limaxophobiacq said:

  Berserker Frenzy is 30% hit-to-crit with melee IIRC.

Thanks for the correction!

I understand the pain in reading through a thread that has been going for some time. You'll probably be happy to hear though that I've already adjusted my rankings on the classes you were concerned about. I demoted Ranger  to Niche, promoted Chanter to Overloaded, and promoted Druid to Bread-n-Butter.

I haven't changed Paladin. I still think it belongs in Niche. I'm happy to hear your case for where you think it belongs.

[limaxophobiacq]

29 minutes ago, Aestus said:

I understand the pain in reading through a thread that has been going for some time. You'll probably be happy to hear though that I've already adjusted my rankings on the classes you were concerned about. I demoted Ranger  to Niche, promoted Chanter to Overloaded, and promoted Druid to Bread-n-Butter.

I haven't changed Paladin. I still think it belongs in Niche. I'm happy to hear your case for where you think it belongs.

Seeing your revised rankings honestly pretty reasonable given your criteria, I do think fighter is very good in a lot of multiclasses, though depending on how you look at it it's mediocre performance single-classed might bring it down but then the same could be said for chanter which is amazing multiclassed but doesn't really get enough for going single-classed (the dragon is really cool though).

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Aestus said:

So on its face, treating subclasses as classes strikes me as quite arbitrary. As a comparison, Cipher's don't need to take Ancestor's Memory, its a class choice, but a particularly impactful one. Should I rank Cipher-sans-Ancestor's Memory as its own class too? Should I rank Chanters-sans-summons independently? That is how treating subclasses as classes seems to me.

In cases like Tactician, Priest of Skaen, or Bloodmage, I think its acceptable to just say “this is an unbalanced subclass, and it’s a big reason why I rank this class so high” and just leave it at that. Its an easy enough thing to say and understand, so I don’t see why I’d need to do something drastic to avoid it.

it is essentially an arbitrary judgment call, but the idea is that the subclass is so transformative, that it needs to be handled as a special case.

having tactician pull up the fighter into overloaded (if that's the basis) isn't representative of the "typical" fighter experience. it's basically a... sort of statistical artifact where tactician breaks the game so thoroughly it drags up the "average" fighter score, but the typical-non-tactician will have a much different experience. 

there's also a flip side where a particular subclass is just awful, but it shouldn't be used to discuss the class because you can just avoid the subclass.

off the top of my head:

• tactician (busted)
• blood mage (obscenely good)
• mage slayer, corpse eater (extremely lame, notably worse than typical barbarian experience)
• skaen (notably better than typical priest experience)
• forbidden fist (wildly different from a monk, even if it might fit into the same tier)

maybe it can be argued skaen isn't better enough, that it's mostly just better at a particular niche (solo-ing the game in a defensive manner), but i def stand by the first three bullet points. especially tactician. a tactician is just so unlike a fighter and enables so much cheese that it deserves a cordon sanitaire when discussing the fighter.

Edited 8 hours ago by thelee

[Aestus]

47 minutes ago, thelee said:

it is essentially an arbitrary judgment call, but the idea is that the subclass is so transformative, that it needs to be handled as a special case.

The distinction I drew is not arbitrary though. Again, the distinction is between:

(Category A) Choosing your leveling tree.

(Category B) Choosing an option within your leveling tree.

Category A is choosing your class. Choosing Tactician is solidly in  Category B.

I don't think being transformative is a good reason to treat something as its own class because there are a lot of Category B choices which are extremely transformative.

I agree with your assessment of Tactician though. I consider it so strong that I kind of soft ban it from my runs. Assuming I don't count it as its own class, would you say its worth upgrading Fighter to Game Breaking Tier?