Advice Needed - Class Tier List

[Chaospread]

[deleted]

Edited June 21 by Chaospread

[Chaospread]

19 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Nope.

Ancestor's Memory isn't self target.

(Anyway, I was speaking about Anscestor's Memory helping recast Unbending, so the real answer is Psyblade doesn't work. Chanter class needs no help to get infinite ressource.)

Anyway, in SOLO, you can have one single class Tactician to achieve that with some source of invisibility, then, or the usual Tactician\Rogue.

[Aestus]

7 hours ago, Kaylon said:

From a party perspective, if you make a list with the most powerful combos for each role (tanking, dps, support/CC) you can see pretty well which classes appear more often and how should look the tier list. The paladin is the top of the list for tanking because he has the highest passive defenses, armor and also infinite healing.

In the case of the fighter, besides the devoted bonus and armored grace, his passives are mediocre. He has indeed some very good active abilities (Unbending Trunk, Clear Out, Disciplined Strikes, Mule Kick) but their high cost and his limited resources cripple their effectiveness in medium/long fights.

My experience with the Paladin is that its one of the worst tanks in the game. The tanking strategy of stacking defenses and armor is subpar compared to Unbending or Barring Death's Door. The resource cost for Unbending is not nearly as severe as you make it sound. Healing is useful, but I consider that a support thing, not a tank thing. As a support the Paladin is decent, but does not offer anything truly unique or essential. For example, Barring Deaths Door or Ancestor's Memory are uniquely impactful support abilities. Does the Paladin have anything comparable to that?

[Aestus]

6 hours ago, Chaospread said:

With the difference that you can't "respec" the "ability" subclass.

The ellipses because there could be many things to say: basically i.e. Psion is another class as compared to other Cipher subclasses, Wizards subclass are weaker than a "pure" Wizard, Bloodmage should be played different from other wizards, and you can do similar consideration for almost any other class/subclass. Ok, abilities are the same (not completely true because subclass wizard haven't some "core" spells for an example, so saying "subclass is choosing another ability" is very reductive), but two subclass of a choosen class can seem two different classes most of times.

Personally, I ban respec. Its an important feature, but not one that should be considered in a list like this. I guess I just don't agree. I really don't see any reason why I need to consider subclasses as individual classes.

[Chaospread]

58 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Personally, I ban respec. Its an important feature, but not one that should be considered in a list like this. I guess I just don't agree. I really don't see any reason why I need to consider subclasses as individual classes.

Ok, I see what you mean maybe: you can do a list with for an example "Wiz is high tier and as Bloodmage you can spam many high level damage spells" or "Fighter is powerful for the unbending etc. stuff, but pay attention, if you choose Devoted, you lose some proficiencies with many weapons" and so on... doesn't it?

[Aestus]

31 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Ok, I see what you mean maybe: you can do a list with for an example "Wiz is high tier and as Bloodmage you can spam many high level damage spells" or "Fighter is powerful for the unbending etc. stuff, but pay attention, if you choose Devoted, you lose some proficiencies with many weapons" and so on... doesn't it?

Exactly

[tackthumb]

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

My experience with the Paladin is that its one of the worst tanks in the game. The tanking strategy of stacking defenses and armor is subpar compared to Unbending or Barring Death's Door. The resource cost for Unbending is not nearly as severe as you make it sound. Healing is useful, but I consider that a support thing, not a tank thing. As a support the Paladin is decent, but does not offer anything truly unique or essential. For example, Barring Deaths Door or Ancestor's Memory are uniquely impactful support abilities. Does the Paladin have anything comparable to that?

 

1 hour ago, Aestus said:

Personally, I ban respec. Its an important feature, but not one that should be considered in a list like this. I guess I just don't agree. I really don't see any reason why I need to consider subclasses as individual classes.

I do agree with other posters that you need to consider subclasses as part of your analysis because they can make a meaningful distinction. As others have said, it's not just an extra ability here or there. Some subclasses like Trickster Rogue get a whole suite of extra abilities that allows them to flex into roles like tank or crowd controller. Some subclasses significantly change the way they operate; Psion was brought up already but Beguiler is another transformative subclass for Cipher because they can bypass the normal weapon damage-to-Focus paradigm and operate as pure caster (most of the time) due to their subclass ability to gain Focus from Deception spells.

 

Your analysis of paladin is a telling example to me. What about classes like paladin or priest where there is no "baseline" class and you must choose a patron god or paladin order as your subclass? Do those subclass bonuses just go out the window? Here's a great example. You seem to esteem Barring Death's Door very highly yet dismiss paladin in the same breath. What about Shieldbearers of St. Elcga who get an identical death warding effect to their Lay on Hands ability? If we're just solely looking at death warding capability, I would consider the Shieldbearer superior because they have access to it as early as level 1, which means it gets power level scaling of its duration, and it only costs 1 Zeal, which means they can keep the death ward effect for an overall greater length of time than a priest, even when factoring in two casts of Barring Death's Door and Salvation of Time.

 

I'm not even that high on BDD myself, but just going of the merits of your own criteria and what you think is important for your tier list, this should hopefully show you the gaps in your analysis by not taking subclasses into account.

[Aestus]

1 minute ago, tackthumb said:

 

I do agree with other posters that you need to consider subclasses as part of your analysis because they can make a meaningful distinction. As others have said, it's not just an extra ability here or there. Some subclasses like Trickster Rogue get a whole suite of extra abilities that allows them to flex into roles like tank or crowd controller. Some subclasses significantly change the way they operate; Psion was brought up already but Beguiler is another transformative subclass for Cipher because they can bypass the normal weapon damage-to-Focus paradigm and operate as pure caster (most of the time) due to their subclass ability to gain Focus from Deception spells.

 

Your analysis of paladin is a telling example to me. What about classes like paladin or priest where there is no "baseline" class and you must choose a patron god or paladin order as your subclass? Do those subclass bonuses just go out the window? Here's a great example. You seem to esteem Barring Death's Door very highly yet dismiss paladin in the same breath. What about Shieldbearers of St. Elcga who get an identical death warding effect to their Lay on Hands ability? If we're just solely looking at death warding capability, I would consider the Shieldbearer superior because they have access to it as early as level 1, which means it gets power level scaling of its duration, and it only costs 1 Zeal, which means they can keep the death ward effect for an overall greater length of time than a priest, even when factoring in two casts of Barring Death's Door and Salvation of Time.

 

I'm not even that high on BDD myself, but just going of the merits of your own criteria and what you think is important for your tier list, this should hopefully show you the gaps in your analysis by not taking subclasses into account.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If you scroll back you'll see I never advocate disregarding subclasses in my analysis. The question about subclasses was whether I should consider them as (A) an entirely separate class, or (B) an option within a class. I am advocating for B.

So, to be clear, I am NOT going to ignore subclasses. I will 100% include subclasses in my analysis.

On the Shieldbearer example. The BDD effect on Lay of Hands for Shieldbearer is a great example of Niche-Tier. The duration is very low compared to what Priests offer and you need a Priest to extend it with Salvation of Time. So in no way does having a Shieldbearer replace the need for a Priest if you are building around BDD as a strategy. Neverless, getting the effect so early does give Shieldbearer's a very specific niche that no other class fills that may be worth taking on a niche composition strategy.

[Okkes]

A better idea could be 'top 10 most powerful builds'. Making a class tierlist with that many options is very hard. For example, single class wizard, single class monk, souldblade-forbidden fist, that lord of the imps build vs..

[Aestus]

8 minutes ago, Okkes said:

A better idea could be 'top 10 most powerful builds'. Making a class tierlist with that many options is very hard. For example, single class wizard, single class monk, souldblade-forbidden fist, that lord of the imps build vs..

If you read my OP I outline there why I specifically want to make a class tier list.

[tackthumb]

48 minutes ago, Aestus said:

On the Shieldbearer example. The BDD effect on Lay of Hands for Shieldbearer is a great example of Niche-Tier. The duration is very low compared to what Priests offer and you need a Priest to extend it with Salvation of Time. So in no way does having a Shieldbearer replace the need for a Priest if you are building around BDD as a strategy. Neverless, getting the effect so early does give Shieldbearer's a very specific niche that no other class fills that may be worth taking on a niche composition strategy.

This doesn't line up at all with in-game numbers or actual use case. If we look at single class priest vs. paladins with base duration to keep things simple:

At PL 5 when Priests first get access to BDD, they have one cast that gives death warding for 8.0 seconds total. At the same PL, Paladins have 7 Zeal which gives them a total of 28.0 seconds of death warding. Priest later reach equilibrium with paladins as they gain two casts of BDD and later Salvation of Time, but at max level a single-class Paladin get 11 Zeal for a total of 44 seconds of death warding while Priests get a total of 36 seconds of death warding with their two casts of BDD and SoT.

So why is paladin considered niche and no way replaces a priest for your BDD consideration, when they get access to death warding from the get-go and eclipse priest at max level? The above isn't even accounting for the extra duration power scaling that Lay on Hands get as a PL1 ability.

Edited June 21 by tackthumb

[Aestus]

20 minutes ago, tackthumb said:

This doesn't line up at all with in-game numbers or actual use case. If we look at single class priest vs. paladins with base duration to keep things simple:

At PL 5 when Priests first get access to BDD, they have one cast that gives death warding for 8.0 seconds total. At the same PL, Paladins have 7 Zeal which gives them a total of 28.0 seconds of death warding. Priest later reach equilibrium with paladins as they gain two casts of BDD and later Salvation of Time, but at max level a single-class Paladin get 11 Zeal for a total of 44 seconds of death warding while Priests get a total of 36 seconds of death warding with their two casts of BDD and SoT.

So why is paladin considered niche and no way replaces a priest for your BDD consideration, when they get access to death warding from the get-go and eclipse priest at max level? The above isn't even accounting for the extra duration power scaling that Lay on Hands get as a PL1 ability.

My bad, I misremembered the duration on the Lay on Hands, they are comparable in duration. Nevertheless, there are other considerations, i.e. the heal effect of Lay on Hands has anti-synergy with some of the important strategies with BDD, i.e. Deathgodlike or Streetfighter builds. I also think Priests bring way more to the table besides BDD. But fair enough, you made your point well, I ought to revisit Shieldbearer specifically.

We agree though that my approach of considering subclasses as choices within a class rather then a unique class in themselves is good though, correct?

[Kaylon]

7 hours ago, Aestus said:

My experience with the Paladin is that its one of the worst tanks in the game. The tanking strategy of stacking defenses and armor is subpar compared to Unbending or Barring Death's Door. The resource cost for Unbending is not nearly as severe as you make it sound. Healing is useful, but I consider that a support thing, not a tank thing. As a support the Paladin is decent, but does not offer anything truly unique or essential. For example, Barring Deaths Door or Ancestor's Memory are uniquely impactful support abilities. Does the Paladin have anything comparable to that?

And Unbending isn't healing? How isn't healing useful for tanks when all your theory about fighters revolves around healing? Guess what, armor and defense help reducing damage meaning you tank requires less healing which, by the way, is also a part of the paladin's kit and has no duration. The point is the paladin doesn't need to be high level to become effective or require a cipher/priest to stay relevant in harder fights.

Everything is subpar compared to BDD (BDD+SoT+Brilliant to be correct), even Unbending. BDD alone is subpar compared to stacking defenses, armor and passive healing, just like Unbending because the limited duration. And finally, who needs priests and ciphers when you can just use Strand of Favor?

Anyway I won't bother arguing anymore because you're not here for advice, but to defend your tier list even if it means twisting my words, contradicting yourself or denying the obvious. 

[Aestus]

17 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

And Unbending isn't healing? How isn't healing useful for tanks when all your theory about fighters revolves around healing?

I'm sure you understand what I meant. Unbending is self-only ability that improves one's ability to tank via healing. Paladin Lay on Hands can function that way if you cast it on yourself, but it obviously fits neater in the category of a support ability, since you can cast it on others. I also consider BDD a support ability even though the Priest can cast it on themselves too. Being able to put a buff on an ally is the hallmark of a support ability, whether its healing or anything else.
 

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Everything is subpar compared to BDD (BDD+SoT+Brilliant to be correct), even Unbending.

Yes, if you check my original post you will see I put Priest and Cipher above Fighter and all other classes. They are the only classes in my game-breaking tier. So I agree completely.

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BDD alone is subpar compared to stacking defenses, armor and passive healing, just like Unbending because the limited duration.

Limited duration is a problem, but no strategy is perfect and completely lacking in weaknesses. Solving the limited duration problem is actually very easy though, and requires very little investment. Stacking enough defenses to become functionally invincible is a much harder problem to solve and requires a much higher investment.
 

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And finally, who needs priests and ciphers when you can just use Strand of Favor?

This is a bug which I think ought not to be considered in the tier list.

 

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Anyway I won't bother arguing anymore because you're not here for advice, but to defend your tier list even if it means twisting my words, contradicting yourself or denying the obvious. 

I am here for advice! However, I'm sure you will understand that I still need to be discerning. Not all advice is worth listening to, and a good way to test advice is to test the ideas through dialogue. I think if you read back to what I've written in this thread with a clear head you will see that's what I've been doing. Regardless, you are entitled to you opinion, and if you think I my motivations are insincere it is your right to think that. I am sorry that I gave that impression.

Edited June 21 by Aestus

[Aestus]

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Chanters do not run out of phrases, so in theory their summons can absorb infinite amounts of damage

I'm seeing the light on Chanters. I believe you are right that they belong higher than I put them. I will probably shift them up to the Overloaded Tier, which means I probably ought to shift one of the current overloaded classes down. For now at least, I don't want to shift the Fighter down. So if I had to choose between demoting Wizard and Monk, which would you pick? I'm leaning towards Monk, but I'd appreciate your input.

@Boeroer

Edited June 22 by Aestus

[Elric Galad]

To be honnest, the game is actually super balanced when you leave out the issue that most martial are meh when going single class.

IF you don't use pure chesse (BDD + SoT + some source of Brilliant), I would say that most classes are actually quite balanced. You need MC / Distinction to really spot deeper differences.

I would put most classes in a rather similar Tier bar Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger (and even them are quite okay, the margin is very thin).

 

Barbarian just doesn't bring anything unique enough, except the super spammable Tier 9 shouts.

 

Fighter has Unbending... and that's about it (if you are curious why you feel invincible with it, check the ACTUAL effect [MECHANICS] Various Testing - Page 2 - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community) . The thing is Unbending + Engagement slots is nice, but Summons + Healing is the most well rouded defensive strategy in PoE2 in my opinion. It tends to be an overkill, and sometimes won't prevent your buddies from dying, which will make victory much harder to achieve.

Clear Out could have been the cheapest AoE weapon attack, but the fact it requires Double Hit vs Fortitude to hit anything in its AoE is a big hindrance (ACTUAL effect if you ever wondered why Clear always feel worse than it appears on paper  clear out hits twice with 2h weapons? - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

That being said Tactician subclass is enough to make fighter super good.

 

Ranger is widely accepted as the weakest class. Now that the pet is more managable that people gives credit to BUT its raw power is comparable to 1 out of 3 Chanter summoned weapons. Ranger has a wide variety of abilities (Tranquilizing Shot is the bane of Auranic, shut any obelisk for a modest 1 bond), but nothing is unique enough to go for it. Single Class has an enormous power pool issue since every ability is overcosted and they have no super good Tier 8-9 passive. 

 

Fighter and Ranger can provide deadly accuracy to multiclass build, there's still plenty of effects to abuse.

Edited June 22 by Elric Galad

[Aestus]

I wrote a long response and it seems like it didn't send. So this is a rewrite. If for some reason my first response made it to you and I just can't see it, feel free to ignore this.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

To be honnest, the game is actually super balanced when you leave out the issue that most martial are meh when going single class.

I completely agree! One of the awesome things about Deadfire is how well designed and balanced its tactical system is. It makes tier list challenging and fun!

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IF you don't use pure chesse (BDD + SoT + some source of Brilliant),

As you can probably tell from my list, I DO consider that combo fair game. I don't use it myself, because its boring and game breaking, but its not a bug. Unlike strats like Strand of Favor + Blade Cascade, its clearly intended design, and that makes me hesitant to exclude it. So I felt like the most fair thing to do is put Cipher and Priest in their own tier (game breaking tier), explain why, and leave it at that. Does that seem reasonable?
 

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Fighter has Unbending... and that's about it (if you are curious why you feel invincible with it, check the ACTUAL effect [MECHANICS] Various Testing - Page 2 - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community) .

Yes, I am very familiar with how Unbending works, thanks to the great work you and other regulars on these forums have done to research and document it. Do I really seem that ignorant though? I'm not trying to be bitchy asking that question, because you've been extremely helpful to me in this thread. I'm not an expert in this game like you are, but I'm also not some tourist hoping to steal some clicks with under researched, over produced bait. I'm a decent researcher and careful thinker.

When you say Fighter's only offer Unbending, you are being hyperbolic, correct? If you have the time, I'd love to discuss this with a bit more detail. Here's some questions I have concerning the Fighter:

1. What is your evaluation of farming Engagement Attacks as a strategy? To me, its one of the strongest strategies in the game, as it not only wastes enemy turns, but procs heavily buffed, action economy free attacks. For context, if I remember right, with Overbearing Guard a Fighter's Disengagement attacks gets +20 Accuracy and +150% damage. That is comparable to an Assassin stealth attack, but action economy free.
2. What do you think about Disciplined Strikes? To me, an action-economy free,  low-cost source of Intuitive + Concentration is extremely valuable on both caster and weapon builds.
3. What do you think about Confident Aim? My exploration of inversion math led me to the conclusion that avoiding Grazes is deceptively impactful.
4. What are your thoughts on the synergy between Unbending and Shroud of the Phantasm? It seems to me that Fighter's offer one of the best tank kits for exploiting Mind over Matter.

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Ranger is widely accepted as the weakest class.

Here is a sketch of my thoughts on the Ranger. Ranger's offer something unique as a multiclass, and that is heaps of Accuracy. There are other classes that offer lots of Accurcy (or Accuracy equivalents), like the Fighter, but none offer as much as the Ranger. I think of Accuracy as like the offensive version of HP, in that its a mathematical bottle neck; if you can't hit a target you can't kill it. In a game where Raw damage strategies like Disintergration exist, Accuracy becomes THE deciding factor for how fast you can kill priority targets. So Ranger starts looking really attractive as a bread-n-butter multiclass option, and importantly for something no other class offers to the same degree.

Lets contrast that with Druid. Druid is a better class than the Ranger in a one-to-one comparison. However, my experience is that Druid gets out-competed by other classes in its niche (Wizard, Priest, Cipher). It also doesn't offer anything uniquely good as a multi. If there is one thing Druids excel at compared to other classes, its healing (right?). But healing is the kind of thing you want just enough of,  and a Tank + Chanter + Priest is enough, and those are classes you want in your composition anyways. So in the broader view of the game Druids fare worse than Rangers, even though they are individually stronger.

What do you think about that line of reasoning?

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

I wrote a long response and it seems like it didn't send. So this is a rewrite. If for some reason my first response made it to you and I just can't see it, feel free to ignore this.

I completely agree! One of the awesome things about Deadfire is how well designed and balanced its tactical system is. It makes tier list challenging and fun!

As you can probably tell from my list, I DO consider that combo fair game. I don't use it myself, because its boring and game breaking, but its not a bug. Unlike strats like Strand of Favor + Blade Cascade, its clearly intended design, and that makes me hesitant to exclude it. So I felt like the most fair thing to do is put Cipher and Priest in their own tier (game breaking tier), explain why, and leave it at that. Does that seem reasonable?

Yes. Specific tier is justified i this case. 

 

Ancestor's Memory is a bit less necessary to the combo since you have other source of Brilliant. 

But it's quite broken on its own if you are willing to use it in combination with a SC druid, priest, wiz... 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

 

 

Yes, I am very familiar with how Unbending works, thanks to the great work you and other regulars on these forums have done to research and document it. Do I really seem that ignorant though? I'm not trying to be bitchy asking that question, because you've been extremely helpful to me in this thread. I'm not an expert in this game like you are, but I'm also not some tourist hoping to steal some clicks with under researched, over produced bait. I'm a decent researcher and careful thinker.

No offense, for a long time even expert players didn't know how unbending exactly worked because the mechanism is just so obscure. 

AFAIK I think my post is the only source of clear description about it. 

There are lots of complicated stuff in the game that are much more documentedvand well known. That is really an exception. 

 

And to be honnest, it's hard to initially figure how much documented is a new poster

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

When you say Fighter's only offer Unbending, you are being hyperbolic, correct? If you have the time, I'd love to discuss this with a bit more detail. Here's some questions I have concerning the Fighter:

1. What is your evaluation of farming Engagement Attacks as a strategy? To me, its one of the strongest strategies in the game, as it not only wastes enemy turns, but procs heavily buffed, action economy free attacks. For context, if I remember right, with Overbearing Guard a Fighter's Disengagement attacks gets +20 Accuracy and +150% damage. That is comparable to an Assassin stealth attack, but action economy free.

As a source of crowd control, it's nice. 

Disengagement attacks are unreliable to obtain and not very convenient to use. You might know that I 'm the author of Balance Polishing Mod. Basically I had to tweak up most engagement related abilities because of this reason. 

 

Yes, only offer Unbending is hyperbolic. I was speaking about game changing stuff. Fighter get plenty of additional goodies. 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

1. What do you think about Disciplined Strikes? To me, an action-economy free,  low-cost source of Intuitive + Concentration is extremely valuable on both caster and weapon builds.

Many classes get something comparable. From lightning strike, frenzy to deleterious alacrity of motion, there are other great ressource costing self buffs. 

Don't get me wrong, it's great, you can build around (crit fishing), but it's not that unique. 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

1. What do you think about Confident Aim? My exploration of inversion math led me to the conclusion that avoiding Grazes is deceptively impactful.

Confident aim is meh and stacks poorly with Aware inspiration. 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

1. What are your thoughts on the synergy between Unbending and Shroud of the Phantasm? It seems to me that Fighter's offer one of the best tank kits for exploiting Mind over Matter.

Not used it too much. 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

Here is a sketch of my thoughts on the Ranger. Ranger's offer something unique as a multiclass, and that is heaps of Accuracy. There are other classes that offer lots of Accurcy (or Accuracy equivalents), like the Fighter, but none offer as much as the Ranger. I think of Accuracy as like the offensive version of HP, in that its a mathematical bottle neck; if you can't hit a target you can't kill it. In a game where Raw damage strategies like Disintergration exist, Accuracy becomes THE deciding factor for how fast you can kill priority targets. So Ranger starts looking really attractive as a bread-n-butter multiclass option, and importantly for something no other class offers to the same degree.

The issue is that Ranger accuracy is mostly single target.

That's why Ranger/Cipher is so great while other Ranger/Caster not so. Fighter provide instant accuracy usable with AoE (but less stacking) 

Again, not so bad, but not THAT great. 

11 hours ago, Aestus said:

Lets contrast that with Druid. Druid is a better class than the Ranger in a one-to-one comparison. However, my experience is that Druid gets out-competed by other classes in its niche (Wizard, Priest, Cipher). It also doesn't offer anything uniquely good as a multi. If there is one thing Druids excel at compared to other classes, its healing (right?). But healing is the kind of thing you want just enough of,  and a Tank + Chanter + Priest is enough, and those are classes you want in your composition anyways. So in the broader view of the game Druids fare worse than Rangers, even though they are individually stronger.

What do you think about that line of reasoning?

The point is that Druid can carry all the healing duties for a whole party, and do it better that any other class. The number of total healing are just crazy. Priest is a meh healer in comparison. 

Druid DoT are also super great, even at low level. Loading Druid with Might and Intellect provide a character that is both offensive and defensive. I've never found them lacking. 

Finally, Maelstorm is the best offensive spell of the game. (I've had a full thread about it before coming to this conclusion). It can wipe full encounters. It is just a head above Wiz tier 9 (better Penetration does help a lot) . 

Edited June 23 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't downgrade Monk because it's the overall best class for multiclassing imo because it can contribute and synergize in so many different ways - AND it's great as single class, too.

But Wizard (especially Blood Mage) can be extremely potent, too. Especially with Wall of Draining which lets you keep any sort of beneficial effect for a long, long time (even really short ones like Escape's super short +50 deflection).

 

[Aestus]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yes. Specific tier is justified i this case.

Great!
 

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No offense, for a long time even expert players didn't know how unbending exactly worked because the mechanism is just so obscure. 

Fair enough. It was silly for me to get all butthurt, I regret typing that paragraph. I was annoyed with people who weren't you, so I should have kept that out of our conversation. My apologies. For whatever its worth, knowledge about Unbending is no longer obscure. The Pillars of Eternity wiki entry on the ability links directly to a post that you wrote explaining it.
 

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And to be honnest, it's hard to initially figure how much documented is a new poster

It is, I get that. And there are MANY very simple things about this game I don't know that I probably should. I just assumed that the way I was speaking about Unbending made it clear that I knew what I was talking about. Again, what really happened is that I've been in this business for a while, and every time I challenge the consensus of a community I get swarmed with folks who prefer to dismiss me as either stupid, bad-faith, or both instead of imagining that consensus can be wrong - paradigms shift all the time in subjects much older and much more academically studied than Deadfire -  and actually engage with my arguments. Anyways, that hasn't been what you've done though, so I shouldn't have let my frustration spill over.
 

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Many classes get something comparable. From lightning strike, frenzy to deleterious alacrity of motion, there are other great ressource costing self buffs.

Sure, but its interesting that those examples you gave all belong to classes I also ranked as overloaded.
 

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Confident aim is meh and stacks poorly with Aware inspiration. 

I'll double check the math and get back to you.

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Not used it too much. 

Is it possible exploring this might change your opinion on Fighters?
 

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The issue is that Ranger accuracy is mostly single target.

That's why Ranger/Cipher is so great while other Ranger/Caster not so. Fighter provide instant accuracy usable with AoE (but less stacking) 

Again, not so bad, but not THAT great.

It sounds like we agree on Ranger then. I ranked it at the very bottom of Bread-n-Butter Tier. To me, its borderline Niche Tier; it wouldn't bother me at all to demote it. Its mostly because I value Seer so highly. I often include a Seer in my compositions, and basically ignore Ranger otherwise.
 

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The point is that Druid can carry all the healing duties for a whole party, and do it better that any other class. The number of total healing are just crazy. Priest is a meh healer in comparison. 

Let me ask this then: if Chanter summons are as good at absorbing aggro as you say, then why do you need that much healing? In my compositions, I draw aggro with my Unbending Fighter and that's typically enough that I can get by with passive, action-economy cheap sources of healing like Old Siec and Triumph of the Crusaders. AoE damage that penetrates into the back line can be a hiccup, but in a pinch Cipher and Priest have other active sources of healing, or even Withdraw, and those get the job done.

And don't you think that healing is the kind of thing that you only need to have enough of? Because fights are ended when you kill enemies instead of outlasting them, it creates a natural asymmetry between offense and defense. This is something Thelee taught me in his FAQ. My take away from that lesson is that overkill damage is good, because it means you can kill enemies faster which reduces their action income and mitigates unpredictability. By contrast, overkill in healing, while valuable, is less valuable. It mitigates risk, but in a way that extends combat, which always carries with it an inherent unpredictability.

So, as a principle, I try to build enough healing to reliably kill them  before they kill me. Priests are mediocre healers, but I actually want them for their awesome buffs, and the fact that they bring enough healing is just bonus.
 

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Finally, Maelstorm is the best offensive spell of the game.

I should test it again. My experience with Druids is that when it comes to damage and CC, Wizards outperform them. Is that incorrect? SHould I swap Wizard and Druids spots on the ranking?

Edited June 23 by Aestus

[Aestus]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I wouldn't downgrade Monk because it's the overall best class for multiclassing imo because it can contribute and synergize in so many different ways - AND it's great as single class, too.

But Wizard (especially Blood Mage) can be extremely potent, too. Especially with Wall of Draining which lets you keep any sort of beneficial effect for a long, long time (even really short ones like Escape's super short +50 deflection).

 

My thoughts exactly. I'd only add that I think Fighter is at similar levels to the Monk for what it adds in a multiclass. And that is kind of the bind I am in. If I put to many classes in Overloaded tier, the tier gets inflated and loses value. I have to make a judgment call on which to leave out. I think leaving out either the Chanter or the Monk is a valid judgement, as long as I explain that they are really valuable in their own right.

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Aestus said:

Is it possible exploring this might change your opinion on Fighters?
 

I don't think so because it isn't even a direct combo. It requires a constant source of damaging attack which isn't so obvious to get. Balance Polishing Mod put Toughened Fury to 10% Discipline on damaged, and it not even that reliable without relying on an external source of multiple tick. Need discipline ? Stand in a "friendly" firewall.

A way better source of Brilliant is Tactician subclass. This subclass IS a tier above the other.

6 hours ago, Aestus said:

It sounds like we agree on Ranger then. I ranked it at the very bottom of Bread-n-Butter Tier. To me, its borderline Niche Tier; it wouldn't bother me at all to demote it. Its mostly because I value Seer so highly. I often include a Seer in my compositions, and basically ignore Ranger otherwise.
 

Indeed. That being said MC ranger are mostly fine, and Ghostheart extremely easy to use. You really start feeling the limit of the class only when going single class. 

6 hours ago, Aestus said:

Let me ask this then: if Chanter summons are as good at absorbing aggro as you say, then why do you need that much healing? In my compositions, I draw aggro with my Unbending Fighter and that's typically enough that I can get by with passive, action-economy cheap sources of healing like Old Siec and Triumph of the Crusaders. AoE damage that penetrates into the back line can be a hiccup, but in a pinch Cipher and Priest have other active sources of healing, or even Withdraw, and those get the job done.

And don't you think that healing is the kind of thing that you only need to have enough of? Because fights are ended when you kill enemies instead of outlasting them, it creates a natural asymmetry between offense and defense. This is something Thelee taught me in his FAQ. My take away from that lesson is that overkill damage is good, because it means you can kill enemies faster which reduces their action income and mitigates unpredictability. By contrast, overkill in healing, while valuable, is less valuable. It mitigates risk, but in a way that extends combat, which always carries with it an inherent unpredictability.

It is not untrue, but once again, Druid healing isn't even "expensive" to use. You don't need it ? Then use DoT instead. Druid has some of the best DoT, if not the best. You don't even need other stats. It is not like you need to dedicate a character to it.

Also Nature's Balm is an extremely good opener. 0.5 cast, fast recovery that can be negated by stealth. Short AoE ? Not a problem if you cast it before your party even move.

Call to the Primordial is arguably the best non-chanter summon spell of the game. You have like 75% chance of summoning a ooze that can cast Plague of Insects itself, and even the worse ones are still about 300hp each.

6 hours ago, Aestus said:

I should test it again. My experience with Druids is that when it comes to damage and CC, Wizards outperform them. Is that incorrect? SHould I swap Wizard and Druids spots on the ranking?

Wizard outperform Druids for CC, damages are quite similar (Intend to prefer druid for their raw DoT options/Maelstrom - Penetration of offensive spells is often lacking), and Druid outperform their non-existing healing. Wizard can be unbelievably tanky even without cheesing.

Wizard is cheater tier with Cipher and Priest due to Wall of Draining though. Without this cheese, Wiz and Druid are similar tier.

[Aestus]

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I don't think so because it isn't even a direct combo. It requires a constant source of damaging attack which isn't so obvious to get.

It is direct in the sense that with Unbending you are incentivized to take a lot of instances of damage, and procing Mind of Matter depends on taking lots of instances of damage. So a tanking strategy that depends on taking lots of instances of damage synergies directly. You might estimate that its not that impactful, fair enough. I think it is impactful though, on the grounds that I did a full solo Brawler run (just PotD, no Magran's Fires), and I proced Mind over Matter often just from standard aggro. Of course, you get 100% of aggro in a solo run, but in a full composition Fighters should still be getting a vast majority of the aggro.

I agree about the Tactician subclass, its another big upside to the Fighter class.
 

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t is not untrue, but once again, Druid healing isn't even "expensive" to use. You don't need it ? Then use DoT instead.

But its expensive to include a Druid in your composition. Its just the opportunity cost of class selection for party composition that incline me to put Druid so low. The driving questions for me is "why would I pick this class? In what way does it outcompete other classes in its niche" and the answer for the Druid seems to be it doesn't really.
 

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Wizard outperform Druids for CC, damages are quite similar (Intend to prefer druid for their raw DoT options/Maelstrom - Penetration of offensive spells is often lacking), and Druid outperform their non-existing healing.

I'd add that Wizard are unmatched at cleansing enemy buffs. I value that much higher than the Druid excelling at healing which I never seem to need.

Yeah, to summarize my stance on the Druid, and really all three of the classes I put into Niche Tier: I think they are good, but tend to be outperformed by other classes that serve a similar function, except in a few niche composition strategies.

Edited June 23 by Aestus

[Elric Galad]

Healing isn't a niche composition strategy.

You say you don't need it, but because you rely on other function (tanking) that also requires party slot. 

I still believe that "downgrading a wiz into a druid" is a way cheaper cost than having a tanking slot. 

You should somehow take into account that the community AFAIK does not have a low opinion about druid. That's different from the other "low tier classes". 

[Aestus]

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Healing isn't a niche composition strategy.

True. I've been thinking about what you've said and feel like it would be better to switch Druid with Ranger. Ranger fits better in niche tier, because it has a specific niche, namely single target Accuracy. Druid fits well into Bread-n-Butter Tier because what everything it offers is a bread and butter strategy, only it doesn't excel at one of those strategies except healing, which we've already discussed. 

I'll probably bump Chanter up to overloaded tier based on your recommendation and Boeroer's. It will water down the tier a bit, but that is better then giving the wrong impression about chanter probably.
 

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I still believe that "downgrading a wiz into a druid" is a way cheaper cost than having a tanking slot. 

I really don't understand this at all. I feel very strongly ya'll are badly underestimating the Fighter, but we don't need to talk about any more. I'm not persuaded by your arguments and you aren't persuaded by mine, and that is fine.  It might actually give the list an interesting bit of controversy/clash of perspective.

So my current list is:

Game Breaking: Cipher, Priest

Overloaded: Wizard, Fighter, Chanter, Monk

Bread-n-Butter: Druid, Rogue

Niche: Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin

I am happy with this!

If you are someone you know you know wanted to record a voice only discussion with me to offer another perspective and expose perceived weakness of my point of view to my audience, I'd be delighted to include you in the video.