2H Rogue Watcher transition into Deadfire

[stayhoided]

Hi

About to hop into Deadfire for the first time after having played Pillars 1 several times over the years. I'd like to keep some continuity with my current Watcher, but I know there are some gameplay and mechanics changes in Deadfire, so I wanted to see if my build would still work or how to best re-work it or add a multiclass.

For PoE 1 I played as a low-int rogue with greatsword (Tidefall) and plate armor ignoring stealth and just building up status effects to smash with sneak attack damage.

Don't necessarily care about pure optimization but does this type of thing still work in Deadfire? Everywhere I see rogue builds, I just see dual wield sabres and stealth which I'm not opposed to stealth but I'd like to keep using 2H weapons and maybe add on something like Paladin or Barb or even Cipher to add some more utility/variance options.

I know this probably sounds scatterbrained so TL;DR - is there a good 2H heavy armor Rogue multiclass build for Deadfire?

[NotDumbEnough]

Sure, a human Streetfighter at low health will hit like a truck. Perhaps consider multiclassing with Devoted Fighter for more penetration and accuracy if you want to use only greatswords, or Soul Blade for Soul Annihilation attacks that can deal ridiculous damage.

[thelee]

you could even do a rogue/druid multiclass. most of the druid kit won't be terribly useful (maybe you could make it a lifegiver to give you some backup heals when you're in trouble), but firebrand at tier 2 will be up your alley.

you can also get a ring very early on (either pay a lot or steal it) from the dark cupboard which gives you +10 acc to fire attacks, which applies to firebrand. so do talents that improve penetration.

firebrand's 25% multiplicative fire lash on top of all the sneak attack (and eventually deathblows) damage bonuses plus hugely boosted accuracy, and you'll hit like an absolute monster. (especially if that rogue is a streetfighter)

Edited January 26 by thelee

[Ivanfyodorovich]

2 hours ago, stayhoided said:

I just see dual wield sabres and stealth which I'm not opposed to stealth but I'd like to keep using 2H weapons

If you put aside the typical class fantasy reasons to dual wield, the majority of builds recommending two weapons are doing so because of the way two weapons was vastly superior to 2H builds in the early versions of the game. At some point (maybe patch 4.0?) they reduced the damage that full attacks did while wielding two weapons by 35% and added 1 penetration to all 2H weapons. For good or ill, a large amount of the builds out in the wild had already been built, and the players who published them already moved on to other games, so you still see mostly two weapon builds if you search them out (even on these forums, thanks to the inability to edit the stickied posts). 

@thelee's guide speaks to this, but in all actuality, 2H is probably better in many cases. It certainly simplifies things for a number of builds. 

As far as the viability of a low Intellect build, Deadfire reversed the mechanics such that Intellect makes % of weapon damage DoTs better. If my memory serves, the advantage In PoE1 was that Tidefall did the same damage over a shorter amount of time, actually increasing DPS the less Int you had, especially because the DoT didn't stack, and that Deep Wounds had similar behavior (correct me if I'm wrong here). Regardless, In Vanilla Deadfire, Deep Wounds deals 10% of the weapon damage dealt per tick (completely base, before any adjustments, it actually does 30% damage total (ticks at 0, 3, and 6 seconds). Deep Wounds is increased by Intellect and Power Level, so you actually do more damage total per hit, if you have more Int. It also stacks with itself, making longer durations viable. There's a Great Sword called Effort that has the same effect as an enchantment (Lacerating) and can be upgraded to 15% per tick. It works exactly the same way as Deep Wounds, though I'm not sure if it stacks. 

If you wanted to keep the low int part, I'd recommend getting the Community Patch, which changed Deep Wounds to 5% per tick for 4 ticks with a fixed duration, no longer affected by Int or Power Level. You could pair this with a Beam Cipher (as Beams oddly also do not benefit at all from Int or PL). As an additional synergy, there is a ring that lowers your Int by 8, but gives resistance to Perception, Intellect, and Resolve afflictions. 

2 hours ago, stayhoided said:

and maybe add on something like Paladin or Barb or even Cipher to add some more utility/variance options.

The advice already in this thread is solid. Devoted Fighter adds a ton, not the least of which is being the fastest possible Heavy Armor wearer, thanks to Armored Grace. Standard build stacking that with Devil of Caroc Breastplate and a pet that also reduces recovery makes you faster than if you weren't wearing any armor. 

Paladin has similar synergy to what @thelee was describing with Ring of Focused Flame, in that their signature attack ability is tagged fire (and already gets +10 accuracy base) making it extremely accurate. Paladin also has phenomenal baseline defensive passives, and great party synergy. 

Barbarian is very fun, similarly sturdy thanks to Thick Skinned and Savage Defiance. A Streetfighter Berserker is a classic "ride the edge" build that has really great synergy for staying bloodied. If you have a party that can provide constant healing (via chanter, paladin, druid, or some combination of those) then you can avoid much of the downsides. No subclass barbarians or Fury Shapers work well, too, and the synergy around killing blows and critical hits is pretty fun. 

Cipher has a lot of great options. Borrowed Instincts is great on any melee damage dealer, as well as Hammering Thoughts. Those alone would be worth the multi-class. Soul Annihilation is very strong, also. 

[Boeroer]

I think the Great Sword "Effort" will be the closest thing to Tidefall in Deadfire.

I will bring a pretty weird combo just for the sake of variety: Streetfighter/Skald with Deltro's Cage and Deltro's Helmet. The goal is to summon two (upgraded) Wisps (The Lights Dacned Across the Moor) and let them fire at you (it doesn't cause much damage). This will distract you but also give you a shocking lash for your attacks (from the helmet) as well as it will unlock your Streetfigher passive (-50% recovery time, way higher Sneak Attack). Apart from that little synergy you will be very versatile. The main chant would be Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr for more damage or Ancient Memory for more sturdyness. Of course very low INT wouldn't be optimal for this because the summons' duration on the field would be short and your invocations' AoE will be small - but it also doesn't cry for high INT like most chanter builds usually do. Funnily enough also low RES will be kind of benefical here - because you want the wisps' distraction to last a long time when they hit you - and low RES prolongs negative effects on you. 

Before getting to the wisps the character wouldn't be especially fast though and would have to make do with other sources of flanked/distracted (like getting properly flanked by enemies). 

Would also work with Troubadour or Bellower I think.

---

When going Streetfigher/any Barbarian note that the Barbarian ability "One Stands Alone" is an anti-synergy with the Streetfighter passive if you rely on getting flanked by enemies. You will suddenly need one more flanking enemy to unlock your Streetfigher passive. 

[yorname]

The main advantages of DW are:

1. you get special effects from 2 weapons. and some of 1h weapons have very powerful effects.

2. because everything in deadfire is slower, you'll have much longer recovery time with 2h, that makes you much less responsive.

3. when you use an ability with full attack, DW makes it easier to apply the effect.

In terms of DPS, 2H and DW are surprisingly really close, usually around 10% difference.

[stayhoided]

Wow thank you all! It sounds like I have quite a few options, I just need to decide on one.

As for the low INT thing - some consistency is nice but I'm not super beholden to that. It just ended up that way since I went high everything else and dumped INT/RES and explained the INT thing away as "he's from a small nomadic tribe in the Ixamitl Plains so he doesn't really have a great education outside of his tribe."

[thelee]

Did want to just add a note the 2h thing that Ivanfyodorovich mentioned (and also adding a note to yorname’s similar findings). I did find that 2h weapons performed ably post-various-patch-adjustments in simulated tests, but is dependent on enemies actually having decent AR to worry about (where the “extra” penetration that 2h get matters). So it’s true-ish for veteran difficult, true for POTD, and all the truer if you unable upscaling-only mode.

on lower difficulty settings 2h is going to feel worse than 2w. I don’t remember the specific numbers anymore, but them’s the breaks.

Edited January 27 by thelee

[stayhoided]

Alright so just played the intro and whew now I'm staring down the barrel of a Priest of Berath RP for fun. I know that's different from what I said above but it just seems so damn thematically appropriate with the plot and great sword and all that.

If I wanted to go Berath melee, what's a good rogue subclass - still streetfighter?

[yorname]

I just finished a Berath run, actually there're very few special interactions for them, maybe slightly more than other priests but much less than I expected.

If you really want to play it, I highly recommend go single class. SC priests have a very different playstyle compared to MC ones, and Berath is one of the better pure casters among all subclasses.

[Boeroer]

Berath/Rogue with Spiritual Great Sword is cool imo. Also I once made a PoE Priest build with Tidefall - so for me that's a nice fusion with a dash of nostalgia.

Spiritual Great Sword - fully buffed through peak disposition scaling (= picking the right dialogue options to boost stoic and rational) gains a potent lash (multiplicative damage bonus) which works very well with the Rogue's additive damage bonuses (sneak attack and so on).

For a melee Rogue Streetfighter is always nice. But if you want to initially cast and then go into melee you have to keep in mind that the Streetfighter is slower (=has longer recovery) than a regular Rogue as long as he's not flanked or blooded. Both is usually not the case at the beginning of a fight. So your recovery time will be longer which will make your casting slower.

Assassin sneaky dude + Berath doesn't really fit thematically imo. Although mechanically the +25 accuracy from stealth and invisibility works pretty well with some offensive Priest spells.

Trickster also doesn't seem to be a great fit thematically because Berath being stoic and rational while being a "Trickster" implies all sorts of non-seriousness.  But mechanically it's a good combo. The illusion spells of the Trickster help a lot with being more sturdy, the Ryngrim spell fits Berath imo - and the downside (slightly lower Sneak Attack damage) is barely noticable, especially after a few (Power) levels.

Debonaire: eh no

vanilla Rogue: why not? No upside but also no downside. And the nearest to a PoE1 Rogue.

 

I personally would pick the Trickster I think - and then "justify" the weird subclass combo with some internal explanation as to why this Trickster is a rational and stoic one.

Edited January 28 by Boeroer

[stayhoided]

Gotcha. Trickster does seem like an interesting option though yeah I agree that it might be difficult to do RP-wise. Doesn't seem like the rogue options fit super well with Berath.

 

Alright as I consider more about this and went through another character creation session (I'm so indecisive), I pretty much just clicked through every single class and subclass and my eye was piqued by the synergy both RP and mechanics-wise for Helwalker/Berath. Obviously it'd change continuity with class but I'd think of it as the Watcher "dying" at Caed Nua (for the death-rite ceremony) and then when Berath puts him back into his body, he's changed a bit.

Assuming this combo would play something like early on summoning the greatsword/using touch of rot to be a damage based off-tank. Then later on be able to dump some of the damaging priest spells to nuke a bit, not being super worried if I hit myself with a bit of the AoE since it would help build wounds. Then if I feel like I'm getting too much in danger, I'd have MIG powered healing spells plus can always dump wounds into monk abilities to rubberband myself back? This would fit my idea of using a great sword and heavy armor still.

Not sure where to put my stats though since it seems very MAD or at least not one that could be dumped fully.

Something like this maybe:

12 MIG
12 CON
14 DEX
16 PER
16 INT
8 RES

The low RES seems ehh with wounds effect but wearing heavy armor should offset that a bit? And then MIG seems low but assuming Wounds bonus offsets - though I'm not sure if it would be better to pump it higher get even MORE damage.