Bare fist battle mage?

[Tomucci]

Ok so first of all I'm aware sage is probably better

But...

Nature godlike for +1 power level

Devoted fighter (pike) for +2 penetration and +25% crit dmg on fists and pike, monastic unarmed training, acute for +1 power level, vigorous defence and unbending, stances, penetrating strike and clear out

Blood mage wizard for all the martial buffs and a couple of other good spells, +1 wizard power level and grimoires to be able to invest all my points into fighter stuff

I reckon there's some good synergy here:

- vigorous defence and mirror image for great deflection/defence

- guardian stance and ryngrims repulsive visage for disengagement attacks

- nature godlike and acute for +2 power level scaling for fists, devoted adds more bonuses, and I'm assuming there's more ways to increase power level

- clear out and penetrating strike with citzals

- confident aim, aware, conquerer stance, merciless gaze for +15 accuracy, 30% and 50% graze to hit, 15% hit to crit

- devoted and expose vulnerabilities for essentially +4 penetration and another +10 accuracy 

- +3 power levels on all spells

 

So two things I'm wondering

First is can monastic unarmed training actually be good with devoteds bonuses and increased power levels buffing it, and does it compete at all with monk fists?

Second is it worth it to sacrifice one of those power levels for intuitives +25% hit to crit? Because that seems kinda decent with all the graze to hit stacked on top of merciless gaze, but at the same time one of the core parts of the build is increasing that fist power level

What do you guys think? Any tips or ideas?

 

[Boeroer]

Since you are planning with a pike anyways check out the Lance of the Midwood Stag. You can get +2 universal Power Level from that one enchantment. I don't remember if that buff stays if you switch from that pike to fists. If it does then that's +2 stackable PL for your fists which would be nice. 

Then think about farming 2 Stones of Power (necklace). It can be used once per encounter for +1 universal PL for the whole fight. If you stack the depleted one with the full one in the stash both will be full again, turning it from a per/rest item into a per/encounter item. Also that PL bonus stacks with everything.

Then maybe read the following article from @thelee about the scaling of Monastic Unarmed Training so you can make a well informed decision when it comes to stacking PLs (if it's necessary to take Tactical Barrage or not and so on): 

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/monastic-unarmed-training

Essentially what you want is +3 PL at all times to take the fists to an additional scaling which makes them very good. +3 with a Fighter is rel. easy: Tactical Barrage (+1PL), Nature Godlike (+1PL) and Stone of Power (+1PL). Of you could reliably stack another +3 PL (see Lance otMS above and then some other source of PL) the fists would become really, really good compared to most other weapons. But the first +3 PLs are pretty easy to come by. 

Could also think about a Death Godlike and go near death for a huge boost of PL, but I think that's not reliable at all. 

Another source of PL could be the Conjurer's familiar summon (the bonuses of the familiar stay even if the familiar is gone for whatever reason). Not 100% sure if it stacks with Tactical Barrage/Acute though. So Conjurer instead of Blood Mage I mean. The +1 PL of the Blood Make is for wizard abilities only unfortunately.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Boeroer

[thelee]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Another source of PL could be the Conjurer's familiar summon (the bonuses of the familiar stay even if the familiar is gone for whatever reason). Not 100% sure if it stacks with Tactical Barrage/Acute though

The +1 PL from the conjurer familiar stacks with those. Could be very easy way to get +3 PL for every single fight  (not even having to use stone of power stacking cheese).

 

edit: downside to conjurer is missing out on a bunch of defensive wizard spells though (no illusion magic), though you do get arcane veil. but deleterious alacrity of motion is probably the best defensive spell, if you don't mind some micromanagement, and you still get that.

edit 2: yeah sage is probably better at fist punching specifically, but don't sleep on monastic unarmed training plus other skills. i did a pretty sloppily put together fighter/priest one (tactical barrage for acute, nature godlike, stone of power, and then priest of wael of tons of defensive spells and light synergies like champion's boon + mob stance) and it was still extremely effective at punch punch punching but also had pretty decent other capabilities.

Edited May 17, 2023 by thelee

[Shai Hulud]

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

Ok so first of all I'm aware sage is probably better

Debatable

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

But...

Nature godlike for +1 power level

Inability to wear helmets is a pretty big tradeoff, like rekvu's fractured casque can make you immune to interrupts which helps a lot in some fights. Just be aware. I like humans, pale elves, and wild orlans for battlemage. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

Devoted fighter (pike) for +2 penetration and +25% crit dmg on fists and pike, monastic unarmed training, acute for +1 power level, vigorous defence and unbending, stances, penetrating strike and clear out

Blood mage wizard for all the martial buffs and a couple of other good spells, +1 wizard power level and grimoires to be able to invest all my points into fighter stuff

Penetrating Strike is not really necessary but if you have nothing better to take sure. And yes you don't need to take any wizard spells, but to avoid excessive grimoire switching I'd probably take a couple. I like Llengrath's Martial Mysteries which has all the fighter stuff except Arcane Veil and Wall of Draining, also I'm fond of Pull of Eora for grouping enemies so that the lance hits as many as possible. So I usually take those three spells with a wizard martial and spend everything else on the other class and spellcasting passives. 

Might also consider tactician, if you turn on berath's challenge you regain discipline when going invisible. Takes a bit more game knowledge to use at its full potential. Any battlemage is going to be really good though, because blood mages are so good at buffing martial stuff and extending effects. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

I reckon there's some good synergy here:

- vigorous defence and mirror image for great deflection/defence

Yes, though eventually Llengrath's Safeguard gives +20 all defenses and it does not stack, so once you hit L13 and can cast the safeguard, you no longer need vigorous defense or refreshing defense. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- guardian stance and ryngrims repulsive visage for disengagement attacks

Sure, but I usually prefer just murdering things with conqueror stance, the extra accuracy helps a lot

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- nature godlike and acute for +2 power level scaling for fists, devoted adds more bonuses, and I'm assuming there's more ways to increase power level

I'd probably go human for fighting spirit and headgear. Tactical Barrage is fine but for battlemages I personally prefer Disciplined Strikes since you have Infuse with Vital Essence, so the combo gives intuitive + smart + fit vs acute + aware + fit. I prefer the first one but it's debatable. Like Boeroer said Stones of Power necklaces are good, but mostly use Potions of Ascension, they last the entire battle and give +2 PL. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- clear out and penetrating strike with citzals

Yes this is pretty fantastic, though I wouldn't neglect mule kick, with the lance it will knock up the entire crowd and it interrupts on graze. Even works on things immune to interrupt IIRC because "knock up" is different from a traditional interrupt. Also only costs 1 discipline. Particularly good with tactician / blood mage since tacticians get back discipline when interrupting spells or abilities. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- confident aim, aware, conquerer stance, merciless gaze for +15 accuracy, 30% and 50% graze to hit, 15% hit to crit

Merciless Gaze is much better with the community patch since it's brought down to a fast cast like the other buffs. I'd recommend using the community patch anyway if you aren't already.

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- devoted and expose vulnerabilities for essentially +4 penetration and another +10 accuracy 

Expose Vulnerabilities is a solid combat opener due to the huge AOE.

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

- +3 power levels on all spells

 

So two things I'm wondering

First is can monastic unarmed training actually be good with devoteds bonuses and increased power levels buffing it, and does it compete at all with monk fists?

Not quite as good as monk fists but monastic unarmed training fists do more damage than most weapons for most of the game, even without devoted, so with devoted PEN and CRIT bonuses fists are very solid weapons. You could easily play the entire game with monastic unarmed training (I have). I think at L20 penetration is normally 13, but if you drink a potion of ascension it goes up to 14. So with devoted that would be 15 and 16. Accuracy and damage also get a boost from power level. 

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

Second is it worth it to sacrifice one of those power levels for intuitives +25% hit to crit? Because that seems kinda decent with all the graze to hit stacked on top of merciless gaze, but at the same time one of the core parts of the build is increasing that fist power level

In my opinion yes, I'd rather have disciplined strikes. Nature godlike + potion of ascension gives you +3PL so just drink a potion of ascension in tougher fights. Buy quill leaves when you see them and you can craft them a lot, especially if you wait 24h for cuitzli's to restock. Even without waiting I can typically craft 20+. 

-------

I really would not go conjurer. Losing evocation is not a huge deal for a battlemage, but losing illusion spells is not great. More than that you can't blood sacrifice. Just drink potions of ascension when you need a boost. Also blood sacrifice gives you +1 PL for like 20s with high intelligence, so you'll have boosted power level from that most of the time.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[thelee]

49 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

In my opinion yes, I'd rather have disciplined strikes. Nature godlike + potion of ascension gives you +3PL so just drink a potion of ascension in tougher fights.

having to craft/acquire potion of ascension a lot is a tax to pay, and much of the benefit of nature godlike and tactical barrage is getting faster and consistent fist progression in the early-mid game, which is arguably the hardest part of the game.

acute isn't just a +1 PL, it's also the int bonus (which is huge for most playstyles), and it's also protection from intellect afflictions. i would frankly always take tactical barrage unless you have a specific crit build in mind (generally for me means some sort of monk or barbarian multiclass synergy). overlap with infuse with vital essence is immaterial since there's a lot of good stuff at tier 2 that can be cast otherwise. 

if OP is focusing on fist build, i would not dilute that by going disciplined strikes.

 

49 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also blood sacrifice gives you +1 PL for like 20s with high intelligence, so you'll have boosted power level from that most of the time.

it's only for wizard spells though, and i'm assuming OP is mostly going to be punching or supporting that punching.

Edited May 17, 2023 by thelee

[Shai Hulud]

31 minutes ago, thelee said:

having to craft/acquire potion of ascension a lot is a tax to pay, and much of the benefit of nature godlike and tactical barrage is getting faster and consistent fist progression in the early-mid game, which is arguably the hardest part of the game.

acute isn't just a +1 PL, it's also the int bonus (which is huge for most playstyles), and it's also protection from intellect afflictions. i would frankly always take tactical barrage unless you have a specific crit build in mind (generally for me means some sort of monk or barbarian multiclass synergy). overlap with infuse with vital essence is immaterial since there's a lot of good stuff at tier 2 that can be cast otherwise. 

Finding quill leaves and a bit of money is hardly "a lot of tax to pay" especially compared to the notion of losing access to two tiers of spells.

Most of my builds are crit bulids. Particularly with the lance. Also with a blood mage / x I am always going to have up infuse with vital essence, so for me all tactical barrage gives is +1 PL. The other tier 2 defense spells that are nice are Arcane Veil and Mirrored Images, but you'd have little reason to cast both, and Infuse has a ridiculously long duration. I guess you could cast Arcane Veil twice, but you only need it once after getting wall of draining, and before that you'd probably prefer Mirrored Images for its longer duration.

Crits are good for far more than just heartbeat drumming or whatever. Many spells interrupt on crits, many weapons have on-crit applications, etc., I find intuitive extremely useful on builds that don't have sky-high accuracy already. In this case the lance crush AOE interrupts on crits so 25% hit to crit is very useful

31 minutes ago, thelee said:

if OP is focusing on fist build, i would not dilute that by going disciplined strikes.

Is he? He mentioned the lance repeatedly, I think he is wanting to use fists until L13 then the lance, but perhaps I misread something. Can always take barrage early I suppose and respec. 

31 minutes ago, thelee said:

it's only for wizard spells though, and i'm assuming OP is mostly going to be punching or supporting that punching.

Good point, though most of the buffs come from wizard side so it's still pretty useful. He has +2 PEN and +25% crit damage with fists though from devoted, so IDK why you think crits are no big deal, or that he is in dire need of stacking power levels. I've had no problems beating megabosses to death without even the devoted bonus much less nature godlike, conjurer etc. As a nature godlike all he needs is a potion of ascension, or stone of power with razor skewers to reach +3PL anyway. And you can get three stones of power very early.

My point was just that conjurer is really really unnecessary for the bonus power level, it isn't hard to reach +3 as a blood mage, and the ability to regain spells is far better than what you get as a conjurer even ignoring losing evocation and illusion. 

[Boeroer]

The reason why I thought about Conjurer etc. was to get to +6 PL,

Tactical Barrage: +1
Stone of Power: +1
Conjurer: +1
Wellspring of Life: +1
Lord of the Forest: +2

But I tested the Lance and as I feared the Lord of the Forest effect (+2 PL) disappears as soon as you switch to another weapon set. So I personally would just use Tactical Barrage, Wellspring of Life and 2 Stones of Power to conveniently get to +3 in every fight. 

But the Lance gave me an idea for a Druid/Forbidden Fist.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by Boeroer

[thelee]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The reason why I thought about Conjurer etc. was to get to +6 PL for +80% dmg, +22 ACC and +6 PEN.

Tactical Barrage: +1
Stone of Power: +1
Conjurer: +1
Wellspring of Life: +1
Lord of the Forest: +2

But I tested the Lance and as I feared the Lord of the Forest effect (+2 PL) disappears as soon as you switch to another weapon set. So I personally would just use Tactical Barrage, Wellspring of Life and 2 Stones of Power to conveniently get to +3 in every fight. 

But the Lance gave me an idea for a Druid/Forbidden Fist.  

you could still get to +6 PL pretty easily with:

stone of power +1
conjurer +1
wellspring of life +1
weyc's wand empowered effect +3 (suppresses tactical barrage?)

and you'd still get wall of draining so you could extend that wand effect and have it last an entire fight.

haven't had to do the fist +6 or more PL math in a while (i'm happy enough for 3) so don't know if there's an easier way to do it, but that conjurer familiar does appear help.

 

edit: this is still not necessarily an endorsement of going conjurer. like i said you lose a lot of defensive spells useful for a fist battlemage. merely that it's doable.

Edited May 17, 2023 by thelee

[dgray62]

You could always go with blood mage (or another subclass) and just steal Fassina's summon familiar spell with the grimoire switching trick.

[Shai Hulud]

57 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The reason why I thought about Conjurer etc. was to get to +6 PL,

Tactical Barrage: +1
Stone of Power: +1
Conjurer: +1
Wellspring of Life: +1
Lord of the Forest: +2

But I tested the Lance and as I feared the Lord of the Forest effect (+2 PL) disappears as soon as you switch to another weapon set. So I personally would just use Tactical Barrage, Wellspring of Life and 2 Stones of Power to conveniently get to +3 in every fight. 

But the Lance gave me an idea for a Druid/Forbidden Fist.  

Is this +6 PL all so the fists are slightly better? Because they're good enough at +3 PL even soloing POTD upscaled. 

FF/shifter is really interesting because you can still use FF while shapeshifted and it keeps the attack speed values. So you can wear robes and turn into a bear and spam FF for instance. What's the ascetic idea? I'm not following how it goes with the lance besides it being a decent stat stick. I mean you could still use FF attack while holding it I guess? 

[Tomucci]

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Then think about farming 2 Stones of Power (necklace). It can be used once per encounter for +1 universal PL for the whole fight. If you stack the depleted one with the full one in the stash both will be full again, turning it from a per/rest item into a per/encounter item. Also that PL bonus stacks with everything.

Neat trick but I try to stay away from exploits agree though that does seem like the most convenient way to get to +3

13 hours ago, thelee said:

downside to conjurer is missing out on a bunch of defensive wizard spells though (no illusion magic), though you do get arcane veil

Yeah this is prob a deal breaker for my build

13 hours ago, thelee said:

did a pretty sloppily put together fighter/priest one

This sounds interesting, ive been thinking about trying priests in some builds recently

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Inability to wear helmets is a pretty big tradeoff, like rekvu's fractured casque can make you immune to interrupts which helps a lot in some fights. Just be aware. I like humans, pale elves, and wild orlans for battlemage

Normally I choose pale elves for this exact reason but this time I feel like the PL is central to what I'm trying to acomplish with the build

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Penetrating Strike is not really necessary but if you have nothing better to take sure. And yes you don't need to take any wizard spells, but to avoid excessive grimoire switching I'd probably take a couple. I like Llengrath's Martial Mysteries which has all the fighter stuff except Arcane Veil and Wall of Draining, also I'm fond of Pull of Eora for grouping enemies so that the lance hits as many as possible. So I usually take those three spells with a wizard martial and spend everything else on the other class and spellcasting passives. 

Might also consider tactician, if you turn on berath's challenge you regain discipline when going invisible. Takes a bit more game knowledge to use at its full potential. Any battlemage is going to be really good though, because blood mages are so good at buffing martial stuff and extending effects

Yeah penetrating strike is definitely something I'd take if I had an extra point spare, and yes with the wizard spells I generally do the exact same thing, I switch grimoires if it's convenient with my spells and ability combos, I try to always make it fit comfortably into cooldowns, and with the grimoires I generally only use ones that have at least 2 or 3 spells I want to use, also I don't really like tactician thematically, plus devoted is pretty central to buffing both lance and fists

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Yes, though eventually Llengrath's Safeguard gives +20 all defenses and it does not stack, so once you hit L13 and can cast the safeguard, you no longer need vigorous defense or refreshing defense. 

I thought this defense buff only triggered after blooded?

6 hours ago, dgray62 said:

You could always go with blood mage (or another subclass) and just steal Fassina's summon familiar spell with the grimoire switching trick.

Didn't know this was a thing, sounds like an exploit but def a cool trick for maximising PL for this

 

Thanks everyone for all the info, much appreciated

[Shai Hulud]

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

I thought this defense buff only triggered after blooded?

Yes Llengrath's safeguard procs on bloodied, but it is so good you should cast it anyway, and sometimes intentionally trigger it. I usually trigger it pretty quickly from blood sacrifices while going through buff routine, or just rush into combat and you'll probably trigger it pretty fast.

11 hours ago, Tomucci said:

Didn't know this was a thing, sounds like an exploit but def a cool trick for maximising PL for this

It is definitely an exploit but stealing spells can be fun. It doesn't get to be super broken unless you steal high level priest spells with major grimoire imprint, which multiclass doesn't get. 

I like stealing escape the most. Lets you zip around the battlefield as it is an insta cast with no recovery. Beina has it, various other skeinites. 

What you do is equip a grimoire with minor grimoire imprint (aloth's is easiest to get). Do not memorize it. Cast minor grimoire imprint from the grimoire against a caster  (druid/priest/wizard and some others like xaurip priests or rathun flamecallers). When you get a spell you want to keep, cycle to another grimoire and it will stay permanently. 

For stolen wizard spells they are displayed with your grimoire spells, but for priest and druid they stay in the hotbar, which does not wrap it just extends so you can only steal about 9 or 10 priest/druid spells before you can't see the new ones.

 

[thelee]

in case it isn't clear (i don't think it was explicitly mentioned here but it is a part of the grimoire imprint spells), but in addition to stealing the spell, the grimoire trick gives you infinite uses of that spell. so even spells you might normally want to pick up manually, you'd be better off stealing, if you want to use the cheese.

Edited May 18, 2023 by thelee

[Boeroer]

22 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Is this +6 PL all so the fists are slightly better?

Yes, they will have additional +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN. Besides that of course all abilities will also profit from the added PLs. 

22 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

FF/shifter is really interesting because you can still use FF while shapeshifted and it keeps the attack speed values. So you can wear robes and turn into a bear and spam FF for instance. What's the ascetic idea? I'm not following how it goes with the lance besides it being a decent stat stick. I mean you could still use FF attack while holding it I guess? 

I didn't mean to spiritshift. I meant to hold the Lance of the Midwood Stag in my hands to get the +2 PL - which scales Transcendent Suffering up one step - but still be able to use the FF attack which does scale with Transcendent Suffering. So the Lance would indeed be a stat stick only that gives my FF attack +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN.
I just picked Druid for the most convenient unlock of the enchantment (you need to have a plant or beast effect on you). Woodskin and later Form of the Delemgan. It's also nice to gain wounds from your own Tanglefoot (also unlocks the enchantment - it's a hostile plant effect - but a plant effect on you nonetheless).

The Lance also looks nice with a Nature Godlike and fits the druidic theme...

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

43 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Yes, they will have additional +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN. Besides that of course all abilities ail also profit from the added PLs. 

Yeah it just seems to me like for a battlemage citzal's spirit lance is going to be better in like 90% of situations, and you'd mostly want to use fists before L13 so maximizing the power level isn't that critical. Don't think you need conjurer though, assuming they all stack, hot razor skewers + nature godlike + potion of ascension + stone of power = 6, but I don't think stone of power and potion of ascension stack. Tactical barrage instead of stone of power? Think those all stack. 

43 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I didn't mean to spiritshift. I meant to hold the Lance of the Midwood Stag in my hands to get the +2 PL - which scales Transcendent Suffering up one step - but still be able to use the FF attack which does scale with Transcendent Suffering. So the Lance would indeed be a stat stick only that gives my FF attack +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN.
I just picked Druid for the most convenient unlock of the enchantment (you need to have a plant or beast effect on you). Woodskin and later Form of the Delemgan. It's also nice to gain wounds from your own Tanglefoot (also unlocks the enchantment - it's a hostile plant effect - but a plant effect on you nonetheless).

The Lance also looks nice with a Nature Godlike and fits the druidic theme...

 

Ah I see. Using a 2-hander would slow down your attacks though compared to dual-wielding or using tuotilo's palm so probably not worth it from DPS perspective, unless not using the community patch where FF attack doesn't work right with anything.

Woodskin is plant effect so won't this work on a blood mage (or priest)? Just get bloodied, trigger woodskin, wall o draining. Might be decent to carry the staff, cast buffs including llengrath's safeguard, then blood sacrifice down to bloodied to trigger lord of the forest and safeguard, at which point you refresh a WOD and summon a better weapon. Could probably get to +9PL actually. 6 from the above stuff plus 2 from lord of the forest plus steal summon familiar? Or empower weyc's wand with a regular wizard. Not too hard to get the tier 3 procs with regular wizard with least unstable coil. Well, it isn't hard for single class wizard. The lower tier spells that trigger LUC don't reliably proc all of them in my experience.

I don't really like multiclass druids, mostly because avenging storm is so awesome and they miss out. I've been testing a SC Fury for an ultimate run. But I've been using Effort because avenging storm procs >>> +2 PL. Also Great Maelstrom just clears the screen which is fun. 

That is a cool idea with tanglefoot giving FF wounds, though. Some of my FF builds can't generate wounds fast enough, particularly a FF/streetfighter that intentionally uses FF while the curse is up to get bloodied. FF attack gets expensive when carrying multiple curses. I don't think streetfighter has anything like that that would give wounds though, besides maybe powder burns ripostes. Hmm...

[Tomucci]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Yes, they will have additional +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN. Besides that of course all abilities will also profit from the added PLs. 

I didn't mean to spiritshift. I meant to hold the Lance of the Midwood Stag in my hands to get the +2 PL - which scales Transcendent Suffering up one step - but still be able to use the FF attack which does scale with Transcendent Suffering. So the Lance would indeed be a stat stick only that gives my FF attack +15% dmg, +4 ACC and +1 PEN.
I just picked Druid for the most convenient unlock of the enchantment (you need to have a plant or beast effect on you). Woodskin and later Form of the Delemgan. It's also nice to gain wounds from your own Tanglefoot (also unlocks the enchantment - it's a hostile plant effect - but a plant effect on you nonetheless).

The Lance also looks nice with a Nature Godlike and fits the druidic theme...

 

This is actually a really cool idea and sounds like it would do what I'm trying to do with my build but better, I'm assuming you'd need community patch though for forbidden fists to count as fist weapons to buff them? Or would it scale with power level regardless because its an ability and the effect be the same?

[Shai Hulud]

52 minutes ago, Tomucci said:

This is actually a really cool idea and sounds like it would do what I'm trying to do with my build but better, I'm assuming you'd need community patch though for forbidden fists to count as fist weapons to buff them? Or would it scale with power level regardless because its an ability and the effect be the same?

So you intend to stick with fists the whole game? If that's the case a helwalker / blood mage is an incredibly powerful martial, though does better with the spirit lance IMO. FF / blood mage is good too for a tankier build. Transcendent Suffering and FF attacks scale with power level without community patch. FF just won't count as weapons for two-weapon style or swift flurry or heartbeat drumming (among other things). FF / priest and helwalker / priest are also very powerful at punching things.  

I don't think the Lord of the Forest thing really necessitates druid because both priests and blood mages can extend the woodskin effect. But if you like druids FF/druid is pretty interesting, and you'd get the power level boost earlier than with priests and especially blood mages. But priests and blood mages have much better martial buffs (especially priests) than druids, who don't really have any, besides a handful of healing over time spells and minor defensive spells. 

Should install the community patch regardless IMO, in addition to fixing things like FF there are many minor improvements. Just download and extract to override folder.

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/335

[Tomucci]

19 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

So you intend to stick with fists the whole game? If that's the case a helwalker / blood mage is an incredibly powerful martial, though does better with the spirit lance IMO. FF / blood mage is good too for a tankier build. Transcendent Suffering and FF attacks scale with power level without community patch. FF just won't count as weapons for two-weapon style or swift flurry or heartbeat drumming (among other things). FF / priest and helwalker / priest are also very powerful at punching things.  

I don't think the Lord of the Forest thing really necessitates druid because both priests and blood mages can extend the woodskin effect. But if you like druids FF/druid is pretty interesting, and you'd get the power level boost earlier than with priests and especially blood mages. But priests and blood mages have much better martial buffs (especially priests) than druids, who don't really have any, besides a handful of healing over time spells and minor defensive spells. 

Should install the community patch regardless IMO, in addition to fixing things like FF there are many minor improvements. Just download and extract to override folder.

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/335

Thanks for the link, I dont like using community patches/overhaul mods until I beat the vanilla game and as of yet I've been constantly restarting and trying new builds and haven't actually finished the game yet  

I do plan to give it a go after my first complete run though

I do really like sages, so far definitely one of my favorite builds I made a wood elf forbidden fist / blood mage with the idea to throw down web and stand in it to gain wounds but it didnt work so i got annoyed with it even though it had a bunch of other synergies haha, it's probably something that gets fixed in the community patch, I might go back to it after I complete a proper run

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, Tomucci said:

This is actually a really cool idea and sounds like it would do what I'm trying to do with my build but better, I'm assuming you'd need community patch though for forbidden fists to count as fist weapons to buff them? Or would it scale with power level regardless because its an ability and the effect be the same?

This also works without the CP. The Forbidden Fist attack scales like Transcendent Suffering with or without the Community Patch. The only difference ist: without CP the Forbidden Fist attack gets treated as a melee "spell", the main drawback is that it wouldn't generate focus that way nor work with Swift Flurry, Heartbeat Drumming, Enervating Blows (redundant since enfeeble, but still), Turning Wheel (I think) etc. The Community Patch just changes the type of attack from melee spell attack to melee weapon attack (as it should have been in the first place - twas likey just an oversight from the devs). 

The scaling from Power Level etc. is untouched.

The Druid side of this idea isn't even touched since the Druid has no special sauce that would only work with CP's FOrbidden Fist implementation. So for this partial build idea it doesn't really matter if CP is installed or not. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is use stuff like Swift Flurry. But a Druid/FF isn't an ACC monster in the first place so going for Lightning Strikes (I believe that does work with FF attack even without CP) is the reasonable route anyways.

Still would consider the Community Patch. It doesn't fundamentally change mechanics and doesn't make them cringy powergamey. Imo it doesn't impact the "feel" or experience of the vanilla game even if you played it the first time. It's just the better version of the game. I'm also not very fond of modding games right away and most mods are kind of over the top generally - this one is not imo. It actually improves balancing in a nin-intrusive, enjoyable and sensible way. Little improvements here and there, removing things that don't make sense, fixing lil bugs and oversights that were ackowledged but couldn't get fixed during the patch cycles of the game. Nerfing too wild stuff here and there so that it works as intended without nerfing it so much it isn't fun anymore...
Besides that you can turn on/off any singular change of the mod indivudually if you don't like them. I also do that with two or three options (for example I deactivate the little Avenging Storm and Resonant Touch nerfs because I find the original behavior more fun).
Then you'd also get unique icons for every passive ability. That alone would make me install it because I find it annoying that upon level-up you have to mouseover the passives to know what hey are since they all share the limited set of icons. And I don't say that because I drew all those new icons.

But of course: if you want to enjoy the first run unmodded that's obviously fine with me, too.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Tomucci said:

I do really like sages, so far definitely one of my favorite builds I made a wood elf forbidden fist / blood mage with the idea to throw down web and stand in it to gain wounds but it didnt work so i got annoyed with it even though it had a bunch of other synergies haha, it's probably something that gets fixed in the community patch, I might go back to it after I complete a proper run

The Forbidden Fist wound trait has a serious quirk (also with CP since this was not known when the CP was done):

As soon as you downgrade an affliction with a resistance it doesn't give you wounds once it expires. So as a general rule: resistances on FF Monks are bad. Better to catch all afflictions unresisted, no matter how severe - but make sure it only last a very, very short time. You can do that by countering via receiving an inspiration - or via "-x%" or "-y of secs hostile effect duration" effects like Clarity of Agony, items, lots of RES and so on. That way ou get all the wounds but don't suffer the debuff for too long. Not passive resistances and no chanter phrases with resistance etc. 

I suspect you resisted/downgraded the "stuck" from Binding Web to hobbled in the hope to only suffer a mild affliction and get wounds for that, am I on the right track with my guesswork?
That wouldn't work well because the downgraded stuck->hobbled wouldn't give you wounds unfortunately. 

Maybe in the future this can be fixed with CP, no real idea if it's possible to fix though. Sounds more like a hard-coded mechanic that's hard to mod.

Luckily the Tangefoot only comes with hobbled - so that should be a nice source of very short-lived afflictions that grant you some wounds. Best for this singular trick would be to go low on INT and max on RES and -hostile duration effects. But going low on INT also hurts several other good abilites of the Druid so maybe a more balanced stat line is better overall for such a character. This one little synergy of Tanglefoot and FF doesn't make a great build alone I'm afraid.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by Boeroer

[Tomucci]

19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The Forbidden Fist wound trait has a serious quirk (also with CP since this was not known when the CP was done):

As soon as you downgrade an affliction with a resistance it doesn't give you wounds once it expires. So as a general rule: resistances on FF Monks are bad. Better to catch all afflictions unresisted, no matter how severe - but make sure it only last a very, very short time. You can do that by countering via receiving an inspiration - or via "-x%" or "-y of secs hostile effect duration" effects like Clarity of Agony, items, lots of RES and so on. That way ou get all the wounds but don't suffer the debuff for too long. Not passive resistances and no chanter phrases with resistance etc. 

I suspect you resisted/downgraded the "stuck" from Binding Web to hobbled in the hope to only suffer a mild affliction and get wounds for that, am I on the right track with my guesswork?
That wouldn't work well because the downgraded stuck->hobbled wouldn't give you wounds unfortunately. 

Maybe in the future this can be fixed with CP, no real idea if it's possible to fix though. Sounds more like a hard-coded mechanic that's hard to mod.

Luckily the Tangefoot only comes with hobbled - so that should be a nice source of very short-lived afflictions that grant you some wounds. Best for this singular trick would be to go low on INT and max on RES and -hostile duration effects. But going low on INT also hurts several other good abilites of the Druid so maybe a more balanced stat line is better overall for such a character. This one little synergy of Tanglefoot and FF doesn't make a great build alone I'm afraid.  

Haha yes you're spot on with what I was trying to do, thanks for explaining how it works mechanically, makes sense now. Would have been a very nice synergy, even thematically the idea of trapping enemies in a spider web and maneuvering through it to finish them is cool but this gives me another idea, maybe i could just play ranged or even constant spell slinging depending how good the healing is from inside the spider web, or use that summoned snake melee weapon. I'm sure I'll cycle back to sage soon with how bad my restartitis is

[Boeroer]

Yes - you could also use a mobility ability to move even though you're officially stuck. Stuff like Escape, Evasive Roll, Charge, Leap (also from Bounding Boots) and so on will enable you to change position.