Magistrate's Cudgel - does Judge stack with other sources?

[hansvedic]

I have a question about the +10 accuracy from Judge as seen here: Magistrate's Cudgel - Official Pillars of Eternity Wiki (fandom.com)

Does it stack with other sources of generic accuracy, such as Marked Prey, Devotions for the Faithful, Borrowed Instinct, Hunter's Claw/Fang, Scordeo's Edge? I've seen different responses to this question.

Edited May 8, 2023 by hansvedic

[Shai Hulud]

50 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

I have a question about the +10 accuracy from Judge as seen here: Magistrate's Cudgel - Official Pillars of Eternity Wiki (fandom.com)

Does it stack with other sources of generic accuracy, such as Marked Prey, Devotions for the Faithful, Hunter's Claw/Fang, Scordeo's Edge? I've seen different responses to this question.

Yes it stacks with all "passive" accuracy bonuses such as marked prey, stalker's link, survival of the fittest, one-handed, and adaptive (scordeo's edge). It will stack with the largest "active" accuracy bonus (devotions for the faithful, hunter's claw, borrowed instinct). In this case borrowed instinct is suppressed by 20 stacks of hunter's claw.

Also if you attack reasonably fast and have high intelligence your opponent will often be stunned, giving you another effective +10 accuracy, and with this much accuracy you're going to crit every hit versus everything but maybe dorudugan. The test rotghast normally has a deflection of 61. It's debuffed here by flanked and stunned to 41. A cast of psychovampiric shield gets deflection to 31. So a seer with this weapon and all buffs has effective accuracy of 242. With Blinky would be 247. Can stunlock things easily. Forgot to use Tactical Meld, also cap of the laughingstock debuffs enemy deflection another 10, so with a seer you could easily get effective accuracy around 262

Only thing that sucks about this weapon is the base damage is rather low and it caps out at superb. Penetration is still okay since it's a mace but could be better. 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[hansvedic]

On a related note, does the bonus penetration from Magistrate’s cudgel on a fighter only apply to the weapon, or does it also apply to spells?

[thelee]

38 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

On a related note, does the bonus penetration from Magistrate’s cudgel on a fighter only apply to the weapon, or does it also apply to spells?

hm, @Constentin Lévine did some digging into weapons in general over here: 

I assumed they tested pretty much everything, so I assume the cudgel is buffed in a way that it only affects the weapon itself. (IIRC even the "judged" de/buff only affects the weapon)

[hansvedic]

10 minutes ago, thelee said:

hm, @Constentin Lévine did some digging into weapons in general over here: 

I assumed they tested pretty much everything, so I assume the cudgel is buffed in a way that it only affects the weapon itself. (IIRC even the "judged" de/buff only affects the weapon)

Well, darn. I thought I read somewhere that the "judged" debuff was a universal accuracy bonus. Ah well.

EDIT: Just checked that thread, and he says that Magistrate's Cudgel's Judged effect is universal later in the thread.

Edited May 8, 2023 by hansvedic

[thelee]

2 hours ago, hansvedic said:

EDIT: Just checked that thread, and he says that Magistrate's Cudgel's Judged effect is universal later in the thread.

ah good find, i just wrongly assumed the top post was updated with all findings.

[Shai Hulud]

10 minutes ago, thelee said:

ah good find, i just wrongly assumed the top post was updated with all findings.

"Judged" actually puts a "judged" mark in enemies' tooltips, which is erroneously listed as a beneficial effect, it isn't so much a weapon buff as an irresistible debuff.

Anyway it acts like marked prey, once an enemy is "judged" you have +10 accuracy vs them. Unsure if that bonus extends to other party members or it is just the one with the cudgel. Let's see...nope, just the one with the cudgel. So it's basically like a "marked prey" as a weapon debuff. 

[hansvedic]

12 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

"Judged" actually puts a "judged" mark in enemies' tooltips, which is erroneously listed as a beneficial effect, it isn't so much a weapon buff as an irresistible debuff.

Anyway it acts like marked prey, once an enemy is "judged" you have +10 accuracy vs them. Unsure if that bonus extends to other party members or it is just the one with the cudgel. Let's see...nope, just the one with the cudgel. So it's basically like a "marked prey" as a weapon debuff. 

So Judge is listed as a beneficial effect for the enemy... interesting. Does that mean that Wall of Draining would drain time from Judge and thus grant additional buff time to a wizard, even if the enemy has no other buffs?

EDIT: If it is treated as a buff, maybe that's to make it so high resolve doesn't affect it?

Edited May 8, 2023 by hansvedic

[Shai Hulud]

39 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

So Judge is listed as a beneficial effect for the enemy... interesting. Does that mean that Wall of Draining would drain time from Judge and thus grant additional buff time to a wizard, even if the enemy has no other buffs?

EDIT: If it is treated as a buff, maybe that's to make it so high resolve doesn't affect it?

That could be the reason though my guess it's an oversight. There are some other hostile effects that are displayed as beneficial like "village fool". Yes you can drain it with wall of draining, though I'm still not exactly sure on the mechanics of that spell, like whether it matters if your target has 1 beneficial effect or 10. I seem to get pretty consistent results based on number of enemies, regardless whether they have beneficial effects. I mean the wall does drain their beneficial effects, I'm just unsure if you actually get more duration on your own effects against enemies with more beneficial effects. 

[thelee]

IIRC it doesn’t matter how many beneficial effects are on the enemy. I believe what matters is the number of affected enemies, not number of affected buffs.

 

and yeah, Judged can be fuel for Wall of Draining. ISTR stumbling into it in a recent-ish run.

[hansvedic]

On another note, I remember reading that the Judge effect doesn’t work if you don’t have the weapon equipped; is that the same for other weapon enchantments, generally? Like Unfaltering from Whispers of Yenwood or the Stelgaer enchantments from Slayer’s claw?

EDIT: I am especially curious about Stelgaer’s Rage enchantment.

Edited May 9, 2023 by hansvedic

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

IIRC it doesn’t matter how many beneficial effects are on the enemy. I believe what matters is the number of affected enemies, not number of affected buffs.

 

and yeah, Judged can be fuel for Wall of Draining. ISTR stumbling into it in a recent-ish run.

Seems to fit with my experience...so a wall on two enemies with no beneficial effects will provide the same +beneficial effects for you as a wall on two enemies with 10 each beneficial effects? Provided they have similar will defenses anyway?

The only fights I've had trouble draining enough to keep up buffs is where I'm 1 on 1, Dorudugan being the hardest because you sometimes miss him due to his super high will. Neriscyrlas second fight is also 1 on 1 but she is substantially easier. 

For Dorudugan my glass cannon mage characters have to proc the fire blight and then drain both of them. Auranic is also potentially annoying because of the arcane cleansing obelisk that is apparently irresistible and has infinite range.

41 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

On another note, I remember reading that the Judge effect doesn’t work if you don’t have the weapon equipped; is that the same for other weapon enchantments, generally? Like Unfaltering from Whispers of Yenwood or the Stelgaer enchantments from Slayer’s claw?

EDIT: I am especially curious about Stelgaer’s Rage enchantment.

Varies a lot from weapon to weapon. There are many weapons where certain enchants do not require the weapon be equipped, like Scordeo's Edge, Scordeo's Trophy, Amra, Bardatto's Luxury, etc. If the effect the weapon gives is a weapon effect like bonus penetration it just applies to that weapon (e.g., Rannig's Wrath Redoublement) [edit - not always true]. If it is more broad like -recovery time or +deflection (e.g. Rannig's Wrath retreat) or an inspiration it is normally universal.

So with Slayer's Claw Stelgaer's Ferocity does not require the weapon be equipped, but I'm pretty sure Stelgaer's Rage does since it modifies the weapon penetration. [edit-it doesn't]

You can try to proc these effects and then extend with strand of favor to find out, but the best way is to use the console to apply the status effect and see if it requires the weapon. Usually the name is the name of the enchant, which you can find with for example findgamedata blade_cascade then applystatuseffect

Edited May 9, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[hansvedic]

6 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Seems to fit with my experience...so a wall on two enemies with no beneficial effects will provide the same +beneficial effects for you as a wall on two enemies with 10 each beneficial effects? Provided they have similar will defenses anyway?

The only fights I've had trouble draining enough to keep up buffs is where I'm 1 on 1, Dorudugan being the hardest because you sometimes miss him due to his super high will. Neriscyrlas second fight is also 1 on 1 but she is substantially easier. 

For Dorudugan my glass cannon mage characters have to proc the fire blight and then drain both of them. Auranic is also potentially annoying because of the arcane cleansing obelisk that is apparently irresistible and has infinite range.

Varies a lot from weapon to weapon. There are many weapons where certain enchants do not require the weapon be equipped, like Scordeo's Edge, Scordeo's Trophy, Amra, Bardatto's Luxury, etc. If the effect the weapon gives is a weapon effect like bonus penetration it just applies to that weapon (e.g., Rannig's Wrath Redoublement). If it is more broad like -recovery time or +deflection (e.g. Rannig's Wrath retreat) or an inspiration it is normally universal.

So with Slayer's Claw Stelgaer's Ferocity does not require the weapon be equipped, but I'm pretty sure Stelgaer's Rage does since it modifies the weapon penetration. 

You can try to proc these effects and then extend with strand of favor to find out, but the best way is to use the console to apply the status effect and see if it requires the weapon. Usually the name is the name of the enchant, which you can find with for example findgamedata blade_cascade then applystatuseffect

Except that Stelgaer’s rage is a universal PEN bonus according to the thread mentioned above. Maybe that means the weapon doesn’t need to be equipped?

[Shai Hulud]

17 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

Except that Stelgaer’s rage is a universal PEN bonus according to the thread mentioned above. Maybe that means the weapon doesn’t need to be equipped?

Hmm yes it doesn't appear tied to the weapon. Strange. I can't find much rhyme or reason in why some effects are weapon-specific and others aren't.

I suppose you could proc the effect near the end of a fight, or have a companion hit you, then extend it with strand of favor. Probably the only way to get 3 stacks. Can also extend the energized effect, though it goes away if you take a might affliction (unless you're immune).

[Bezhukov]

Does Verdict proc on any hit (including spells)?

Will test.