Mechanics of duplicate spells (Phantom, Watery Double, Etc.?)

[Not So Clever Hound]

14 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I get bonus on wall of flame but not corrosive siphon

Have you checked Wall of Flame by actually casting it on yourself or in combat and checking the value from the combat log? I bet you won't see Scion of Flame do anything to your PEN. Still doesn't explain all the other discrepancies.

[Shai Hulud]

15 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Have you checked Wall of Flame by actually casting it on yourself or in combat and checking the value from the combat log? I bet you won't see Scion of Flame do anything to your PEN. Still doesn't explain all the other discrepancies.

This is weird. The tooltip says the base pen is 0, +1.5 ability level, +1 scion of flame. But it actually has base pen 7 and does not apply scion of flame. 

Why would my installation be different? My game was completely vanilla until recently and it's always had the wall of flame tooltip for Scion of Flame.

And have you checked your other corrode spells? Corrosive Siphon is far from the only one that doesn't get Spirit of Decay...I just cast MInoletta's Minor Missiles on Vela after adding the talent and there is no Spirit of Decay bonus. I then cast Necrotic Lance on Vela and that one does have Spirit of Decay bonus. Haven't tested in-combat all the ones I listed, I'm going mostly by their tooltips, but Draining Touch and Kalakoth's Minor Blights definitely do not apply Spirit of Decay in addition to Corrosive Siphon and Minoletta's Minor Missiles. The higher level spells I didn't test in combat besides Wall of Many Colors.  So far the tooltips are consistent except for Wall of Flame...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Not So Clever Hound]

35 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

The tooltip says the base pen is 0, +1.5 ability level, +1 scion of flame. But it actually has base pen 7 and does not apply scion of flame.

That's actually consistent with what I get. As I said, the tooltip is garbage for Wall spells. 7 base pen + ability scaling + power level scaling is exactly what I get too in the combat log. BUT, scion of flame should in theory work since the spell has the Fire tag - and benefits from the Ring of Focused Flames for example. Except it doesn't, which is probably a persisting bug.

 

35 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

And have you checked your other corrode spells?

I've checked Minor Missiles, Siphon and Draining Touch and I get the +PEN for those for sure. Will check a few others and edit this post.

Death Ring, Noxious Burst and Necrotic Lance work as expected and add Spirit of Decay.

Minor Blights doesn't show anything in the tooltip BUT when the blight cycle to the Corrode ones, the combat log does show that Sprit of Decay adds +1Pen. So it works.

Caedebald Black Bow also get +Pen from Spirit of Decay.

Concelhaut Corrosive Skin does NOT get Spirit of Decay +Pen however!

@Elric Galad I also noticed one thing: Blood Mage is still locked out of the Passive Great Soul because it cannot Empower, however the BPM version of Great Soul with the additional AT 1 and AT 2 spells would be very relevant to BM...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Shai Hulud]

I combat-tested the rest of the acid/decay/corrode wizard spells.

Minoletta's Minor Missiles - no spirit of decay
Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon - no
Concelhaut's Draining Touch - no
Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin - no
Kalakoth's Minor Blights - no
Wall of Many Colors - no

Necrotic Lance - yes
Noxious Burst - yes
Death Ring - yes
Caedelbald's Blackbow - yes
Minoletta's Missile Salvo - yes
 

Not sure I tested all the other elemental spells because I haven't noticed any of them not working except wall of flame, but I did test Meteor Shower, Kalakoth's Freezing Rake, Chill Fog, Blast of Frost, Delayed Fireball, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, Chain Lightning, Ninagauth's Shadowflame, Ninagauths Bitter Mooring, and all these give +1 pen per their ability.

I only have issue with the spirit of decay ability, and more specifically it seems to be the "corrode" spells vs the "acid" or "decay" spells. I checked without the BPM mod and spirit of decay in vanilla says "+1 penetration with decay/acid attacks" and in BMP says "+1 penetration with decay/acid/corrode weapons attacks"

I suspect vanilla was coded only for decay and acid keyword spells and not spells like the concelhaut spells that do not have decay/acid keywords except in BPM. So...again I'm guessing there is some issue with the BPM keywords for these spells. 

Of course none of this explains why @Not So Clever HoundDOES get +1 PEN from spirit of decay for these spells. I'm guessing the BPM implementation is bugged somehow and works inconsistently for reasons I wouldn't understand since I only know really basic programming. But IDK.

We need input from more people to see if it is more common for these spells to get +1 PEN or not. 

-------

Anyway I'm going to get back to grinding XP in Neketaka and in the meantime be slightly sad since my most damaging spells at the moment do not benefit from spirit of decay as they should.

EDIT: Just occurred to me, does it matter the order the mods are listed? Like maybe the keyword mod is not being loaded properly for me? I followed the community patch instructions and put icons at the bottom but it didn't specify otherwise.

My full mod list looks like this from top to bottom

Community Patch - Basic
Community Patch - Extra
Community Patch - Keywords
Community Patch - Typos
Community Patch - Icons
BPM - Buffs
BPM - Nerfs
BPM - Summon Rebalance
Potion of Enlightenment

@Not So Clever Hound
Sorry to keep bugging you, can you check if you get the bonus pen in vanilla on the concelhaut spells? Because I don't. If it is a mod issue it wouldn't make sense that you would get the bonus in vanilla also, so I'm hoping you have the same results I do in vanilla and my CP / BPM keywords aren't being loaded properly or something...

I'm like 95% sure my keywords aren't being loaded correctly, although they show up in the tooltips. There's even a note in the CP description that says in the changelog for 1.02 (so clearly this type of spell didn't benefit in vanilla, and still doesn't in my game)

• CP.Keywords: Concelhaut's Draining Touch (weapon/attack): now has Acid keyword, and the attack can benefit from Spirit of Decay talent

Edited January 23, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Not So Clever Hound]

22 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Sorry to keep bugging you, can you check if you get the bonus pen in vanilla on the concelhaut spells? Because I don't. If it is a mod issue it wouldn't make sense that you would get the bonus in vanilla also, so I'm hoping you have the same results I do in vanilla and my CP / BPM keywords aren't being loaded properly or something...

No worries, I'm interested in getting to the bottom of this as well.

I have more or less the same mods loadout order as you have. I only have NoRest mod from Noqn on top, my own personal Screaming Soul Fix Mod from Elric  and the most important mod in the game: Wahai Poraga Fix by Boeroer. Kidding aside, nothing that I have and that you don't have should interfere with keywords.

But anyway I deactivated all mods and checked Minor Missiles and Corrosive Siphon - combat log correctly shows Spirit of Decay adding Pen for both..

Edited January 23, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

Corrode isn't a Keyword, it is a damage type (Same difference with Burn damages and Fire - there is even a Water Keyworded Burn damages spell) 

But what I've self-ruled so far is that all spells with Corrode damages should either have either Acid or Decay KW. Decay is specific to Druid and White Worms spell. All the other spells should have Acid.

(But BPM did not change Spirit of Decay itself.)

So I will add Corrode damage type to all the ability and attack that miss it.

 

For Walls, I suspect that is because they are coded as a hazard zone and not a direct attack. It is most likely impossible to change. I might be considering buffing a bit Fire Wall to compensate (for this and missing Scion of Flame and Fire KW beneifits). Wall of Many Colors does not require buff.

[Not So Clever Hound]

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

For Walls, I suspect that is because they are coded as a hazard zone and not a direct attack.

You're certainly right, but then why would Walls benefit from the Ring of Focused Flames... anyway. Walls are weird.

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

So I will add Corrode damage type to all the ability and attack that miss it.

Thanks Eric! Still doesn't explain why Shai Hulud is not getting the Spirit of Decay when I'm getting it but IDK... The one spell where neither of us were getting the bonus Pen is Corrosive Skin.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Shai Hulud]

I don't understand why but my spirit of decay is functioning correctly now except for Corrosive Skin and Wall of Many Colors. I exited the game to desktop and reloaded. Spirit of Decay still wasn't working on those spells I listed. I loaded a level 4 save, consoled up to 20 with all the element abilities. Casting the spell Minoletta's Minor Missiles from grimoire still didn't give +1 pen so I reloaded, consoled up, and this time memorized all the corrode ones. Suddenly they worked, not only in this save but in all saves, from grimoire or memorized. 

Doesn't make any sense to me but I guess whatever bug I was encountering somehow disappeared.

Thanks @Not So Clever Houndfor helping me to troubleshoot this, and thanks @Elric Galadfor all your work in continuing to improve the game and personally responding to my disappearing bug.

[Not So Clever Hound]

40 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

so I reloaded, consoled up, and this time memorized all the corrode ones. Suddenly they worked, not only in this save but in all saves, from grimoire or memorized. 

That is so weird. Just another day in the Deadfire I guess  . Glad you somehow fixed it.

So all in all, to sum up @Elric Galad if you ever wanted to kindly consider in your next potential batch of improvement:

• Concelhaut Corrosive Skin to benefit from Spirit of Decay
• Opening up Great Soul to SC Blood Mage so they can get the bonus AT1&2 spells as any other SC Caster, even if they can't Empower
• The improvements you were talking about for Blood Sacrifice: fixed damage without the PL scaling
• Maybe you mentioned a slight buff to Wall of Fire above? Agree Wall of Many Colors probably doesn't need a buff...  Dunno about Wall of Force, I never ever use it. EDIT: I wonder if Walls and maybe other Hazard spells wouldn't deserve a base PEN of 9 instead of 7. Just putting it out there.

You would make some of us the happiest of men/women.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

I won't allow Great Soul for Blood Mage cause adding abilities to classes is a bit tedious and it would cause a confusing display saying it adds Empower Point to a class that does not have any. BPM Great Soul isn't great for caster anyway, so it is Just a minor drawback for BM. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

13 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

BPM Great Soul isn't great for caster anyway

I kinda disagree with that, an extra (or a few extra) free AT 1&2 spells fully scaled at PL10+ can be really good. But fair enough.

[Shai Hulud]

16 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I kinda disagree with that, an extra (or a few extra) free AT 1&2 spells fully scaled at PL10+ can be really good. But fair enough.

Also blood mage doesn't really need to take (m)any spells so you often have too many abilities and not enough good choices. I'd take Great Soul. Don't think it is that confusing. Someone who made it to L20 with a blood mage probably understands they can't empower since it says so at character creation and they've made it to L20 without empowering, plus the description doesn't say it lets you empower, just increases max empower points. Similar to the adratic glow buff which is still worth getting as a blood mage IMO, even though no empower. 

Display would be no more confusing than half the abilities in this game IMO, but I don't know how hard it is to implement and there are likely higher priorities for you

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also blood mage doesn't really need to take (m)any spells so you often have too many abilities and not enough good choices. I'd take Great Soul. Don't think it is that confusing. Someone who made it to L20 with a blood mage probably understands they can't empower since it says so at character creation and they've made it to L20 without empowering, plus the description doesn't say it lets you empower, just increases max empower points. Similar to the adratic glow buff which is still worth getting as a blood mage IMO, even though no empower. 

Display would be no more confusing than half the abilities in this game IMO, but I don't know how hard it is to implement and there are likely higher priorities for you

These are all very sound arguments in my book. And also yes, there are probably other priorities. No big deal either way.  

For a non Blood Mage caster, BPM Great Soul is really good because you can use an Empower point to restore spells rounded up vs. your starting pool at the given ability tier: so if you have a base of 3 spells at a given ability tier, you get 2 spells back. That nets you 5 spells in total (3+2), as opposed to 3 spells (2+1) otherwise.

If you are a Wizard with Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry, you can have 5+3=8 AT1 spells, and 4+2=6 AT2, AT3 through AT8 get 3+2=5, then AT9 gets 2+1=3 spells. That is 47 spells in total. Factoring in higher-level spells and lower chance to regain resources, a Blood Mage would have to spam A LOT of Blood Sacrifice to match the same result (and expend a lot of HP).

On the other hand, a Druid or certain Priest kits can get Touch of Rot at PL1 which can scale up to hundreds of damage per target with proper power level, and don't even get me started on Insect Swarm. Having a few extra casts of those bad boys can mean thousands of combined extra AoE damage in one fight.

[NotDumbEnough]

While it's true early game DoTs can do ridiculous amounts of damage, they have severe penetration problems. There's really no way to use a spell with ~10 penetration at level 20, unless you have an incredible amount of setup (food/Tenacious for +2 pen, and -AR debuffs on the enemy) because on PotD you are going to see lots of enemies with 15+ AR.

[Shai Hulud]

48 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

While it's true early game DoTs can do ridiculous amounts of damage, they have severe penetration problems. There's really no way to use a spell with ~10 penetration at level 20, unless you have an incredible amount of setup (food/Tenacious for +2 pen, and -AR debuffs on the enemy) because on PotD you are going to see lots of enemies with 15+ AR.

This is true for most damage spells but there are lots of good defensive and buff debuff spells, like Eldritch Aim remains great the whole game except for its relatively short duration, Chill Fog is usable  as AOE blind debuff + proc for Combusting Wounds (also still good late), Infuse, Merciless Gaze, Mirrored Image, Arcane Veil, even Concelhaut's Parasitic Quarterstaff I use the whole game vs some enemies. Combusting Wounds + 3x Minoletta's Minor MIssiles shreds certain otherwise hard to hit enemies like The Messenger. Was how I killed him last time anyway.

Concelhaut's Draining Missiles is one of the few offensive spells that remains good in general. 

Would be nice to see stronger PL scaling though. I often find it more effective to punch enemies to death even as a mage...

[Not So Clever Hound]

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

While it's true early game DoTs can do ridiculous amounts of damage, they have severe penetration problems. There's really no way to use a spell with ~10 penetration at level 20, unless you have an incredible amount of setup (food/Tenacious for +2 pen, and -AR debuffs on the enemy) because on PotD you are going to see lots of enemies with 15+ AR.

Well, Insect Swarm deals Raw damage so no issues there, and you can easily stack Beasts +PL for huge damage.

Regarding Touch of Rot, a SC Priest of Berath with Crusted Swordfish food is one Champion's Boon cast away from getting Touch of Rot at 14.3 Pen. Even against 15 AR, that's going to hurt a lot, especially if you can cast 4 of those in a row without even using resource replenishment. For really tough nuts, the same Priest has Rusted Armor. I wouldn't call that an incredible amount of setup, after all we are playing at max difficulty.

I'm not arguing with you that Pen isn't an issue with spells due to +2AR from POTD and +2AR from Scaling among many enemies. I actually keep ranting about that, but it's a more general challenge. When enemies have 15+ AR, you will need to buff Pen and/or debuff AR for most of your spells to do decent damage, and when you do so effectively, even lower spells can remain effective. I mean against 15AR, your Freezing Pillar at 12 Pen is still severely under-penetrating. If you don't want to set-up against underpen and still use damage spells, you can prioritize Raw damage, high Pen Shock spells, or Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Shai Hulud]

Testing out AOE on unconscious gear on phantoms. This is at L20 with

Mantle of the Seven Bolts
Effort
One Dozen Stood
Least Unstable Coil

Unfortunately Effort and Least Unstable Coil have 7 penetration regardless of level. Same with Cape of the Falling Star. Mantle of the Seven Bolts has 9 penetration which is still not great. One Dozen Stood has a decent 12 penetration. With Animancy Cat the exploding phantoms strat may be sort of usable. Shadowing Beyond => Pull of Eora => Essential Phantom. Stealing Champion's Boon would help the summons a lot. Even if the duration sucks because of negative power level you only really need the +2 pen when they explode.

Pull of Eora doesn't pop you out of invisibility but Blood Sacrifice does, which is a bit strange since it isn't an attack. The phantom duration is a little over a minute. He is so tanky with One Dozen Stood that the Neketaka guards couldn't kill him though so I had to detonate him manually. But I'm sure actually tough enemies will detonate him. Potions of Enlightenment shouldn't break invisibilty so I think this will work, though the low penetration sucks. Least Unstable Coil does have a nice stun effect though. 

Could possibly even do this without stealing spells at all, using Arkemyr's Grimoire if it weren't for the ridiculous number of withdraw scrolls you'd need. Shadowing Beyond is better overall due to the lack of recovery, and stealing spells is fun. Blood Sacrifice breaking invisibility is also a problem, but length of Arkemyr's Wondrous Departure with decent INT is over 30 seconds so theoretically you could stay invisible without stealing spells or blood sacrifice BUT you also need to summon phantoms, and...can't regenerate resources fast enough for that without blood sacrifice or spell theft. 

How does potion of enlightenment work on multiclass characters? Do you get back 1 resource per class or is it random? Because with super high INT priest of skaen / wizard you could maybe do this with Spiritual Ally and Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure without stealing spells, if you got back 1 resource per class per 30 seconds from the potions. Or wizard / watershaper with watery double, except you can't be a watershaper sadly. You can steal the spell, though, but I'm not sure how bad it is with negative power level scaling.  Or maybe a monk / wizard, not sure if the monk duplicate gets your gear though.

Checked the description and it says "all class resources" so it SOUNDS like you'd get +1 per class per 30 seconds, so I think you could actually do all the magran's fires challenges in BPM without stealing spells, though withdraw duration was nerfed somewhat so I think you'd be just short of being able to stay invisible...

Also makes these potions of enlightenment much better for multiclass, and they only cost 3000 gold or 1000 gold to craft 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Not So Clever Hound]

26 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Unfortunately Effort and Least Unstable Coil have 7 penetration regardless of level. Same with Cape of the Falling Star. Mantle of the Seven Bolts has 9 penetration which is still not great. One Dozen Stood has a decent 12 penetration

That’s odd, Elric implemented scaling for those effects in BPM specifically to address that issue. Do you have BPM enabled?

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That’s odd, Elric implemented scaling for those effects in BPM specifically to address that issue. Do you have BPM enabled?

Yes. Maybe I found another "bug" that will disappear after I restart the game, level up, quit, say a prayer, and reload. 

Hmm. No such luck. The BPM notes say they didn't do anything about the wizard spells because they were already implemented correctly I thought. The phantom's accuracy and deflection do scale with level but penetration does not, whether weapon or spell or exploding. Unfortunate because the explosions crit decently often but always no pen or worse. They'd do a lot of damage if there was penetration scaling. 

I checked Maura's Writhing Tentacles and they do scale but their base pentration is 5, so at level 20 it becomes 9 which is still pretty meh. 

---

Another thing, I noticed unarmed attacks and shield-weapons like Tuotilo's Palm have ZERO penetration, regardless of level. Hope that one isn't intentional because unarmed attacks are pretty useful when you want to avoid breaking weapons and don't have summoned ones available. Plus the shield-weapons are useless now. More than useless, they cost you attack/recovery time and always severely underpen. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

Are the items/fists not scaling on you, or only on the clones ? Might be a side effect of the implementation method (which can't be easily bypassed unless I had my own army of devs). On yourself, sometimes you have to reequip them to get the scaling, it might mess with clones.

Tuotilio's Palm/Fist having a Zero PEN is a consequence of correcting a bug for foe monk damages. Having Monastic Unarmed Training / Transcendant Suffering is now the only way to use them, granted that without these talents these attacks are quite bad in vanilla anyway (but in the context of God trial run I can see the point...). I can't see another alternative for this apart non zero but very low PEN (something in the 3-5 PEN range) which might not help you anyway.

Other Shield weapons should be scaling appart Tuotilio's. (NB: They don't scale in vanilla.)

Please read the Mod Notes before asking  (at least the classes/abilities you want to use)

As a general advice, it would be a good idea to read them while planning a full run with all trials activated, so you won't be caught off-guard by something you don't expect. Or you can get ideas to use abilities you have discarded by vanilla habits.

Yeah potions of Enlightment work for both classes, which can be seen as an indirect buff for Caster/Caster Multiclass. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

18 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Are the items/fists not scaling on you, or only on the clones ? Might be a side effect of the implementation method (which can't be easily bypassed unless I had my own army of devs). On yourself, sometimes you have to reequip them to get the scaling, it might mess with clones.

Tuotilio's Palm/Fist having a Zero PEN is a consequence of correcting a bug for foe monk damages. Having Monastic Unarmed Training / Transcendant Suffering is now the only way to use them, granted that without these talents these attacks are quite bad in vanilla anyway (but in the context of God trial run I can see the point...). I can't see another alternative for this apart non zero but very low PEN (something in the 3-5 PEN range) which might not help you anyway.

Other Shield weapons should be scaling appart Tuotilio's. (NB: They don't scale in vanilla.)

Please read the Mod Notes before asking  (at least the classes/abilities you want to use)

As a general advice, it would be a good idea to read them while planning a full run with all trials activated, so you won't be caught off-guard by something you don't expect. Or you can get ideas to use abilities you have discarded by vanilla habits.

Yeah potions of Enlightment work for both classes, which can be seen as an indirect buff for Caster/Caster Multiclass. 

Is it possible to add Monastic Unarmed Training talent to all classes, like Extra Pockets was? In POE1 there were a lot of cross-class talents like this including the unarmed fighting one, which I really liked. Shield-attacks and fists have pen 0 with no scaling on me and phantoms, at least with Tuotilo's. 

I have read the notes but my memory isn't perfect. I couldn't think of a good reason Tuotilo's Palm would have pen 0. Think it is supposed to be 7. Let me check Magran's Blessing...it has pen 6+2(exceptional), scaling is correct.

I reread the section on item passive scaling, noticed you list One Dozen Stood, Cape of the Falling Star, Mantle of the Seven Bolts, and Least Unstable Coil as all affected by some glitch when you wear them simultaneously...  I had a long thing written here asking about the scaling but I experimented with different orders of equipping the items and I get it now.

Okay, so my question is this: these abilities should also scale with essential phantom, yes? But they do not. He doesn't display "volatile" "fiery descent" "echo of the godhammer" or "final storm" and just gets the base pen, also doesn't benefit from scion of flame or heart of the storm. Doesn't get the bonus damage or accuracy either. As a result the phantom does maybe 1/3 the damage I would on death. Is this intentional, or should duplicates get the passive ability scaling as well?

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Is it possible to add Monastic Unarmed Training talent to all classes, like Extra Pockets was? In POE1 there were a lot of cross-class talents like this including the unarmed fighting one, which I really liked. Shield-attacks and fists have pen 0 with no scaling on me and phantoms, at least with Tuotilo's. 

Clones won't get the talent anyway. In Vanilla, their fists are really bad (no scaling). In BPM, they are even worse (0 PEN). 

As said above, I don't plan to add abilities to classes that don't get them in vanilla, although this one could make sense, and it wouldn't hurt NPC if I couldn't add to them.

 

By the way, I'm also considering adding fast runner to monk and Bull's Will to Cipher as they are no reasons MC Monks could run faster than SC (stacking fast runner with Monk 25% speed talent) and MC Ciphers could have higher Will than MC (stacking +10 Wil with Cipher specific +15 Will talent).

7 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I have read the notes but my memory isn't perfect. I couldn't think of a good reason Tuotilo's Palm would have pen 0. Think it is supposed to be 7. Let me check Magran's Blessing...it has pen 6+2(exceptional), scaling is correct.

Monk Fists were set to 0 PEN and PEN was displaced to Unarmed Talents (to solve foe monk damages issue, search the BPM thread if you're really interested).

Tutotilio's benefit from Unarmed Talents, so has to be set to 0 PEN too.

Other shields benfit from weapon quality instead.

7 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I reread the section on item passive scaling, noticed you list One Dozen Stood, Cape of the Falling Star, Mantle of the Seven Bolts, and Least Unstable Coil as all affected by some glitch when you wear them simultaneously...  I had a long thing written here asking about the scaling but I experimented with different orders of equipping the items and I get it now.

Okay, so my question is this: these abilities should also scale with essential phantom, yes? But they do not. He doesn't display "volatile" "fiery descent" "echo of the godhammer" or "final storm" and just gets the base pen, also doesn't benefit from scion of flame or heart of the storm. Doesn't get the bonus damage or accuracy either. As a result the phantom does maybe 1/3 the damage I would on death. Is this intentional, or should duplicates get the passive ability scaling as well?

Okay, so if it is a clone specific issue, I think I could add the scaling intresically to the clones. It might work. The scaling only applies to specifically tagged items attacks.

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Clones won't get the talent anyway. In Vanilla, their fists are really bad (no scaling). In BPM, they are even worse (0 PEN). 

As said above, I don't plan to add abilities to classes that don't get them in vanilla, although this one could make sense, and it wouldn't hurt NPC if I couldn't add to them.

 

By the way, I'm also considering adding fast runner to monk and Bull's Will to Cipher as they are no reasons MC Monks could run faster than SC (stacking fast runner with Monk 25% speed talent) and MC Ciphers could have higher Will than MC (stacking +10 Wil with Cipher specific +15 Will talent).

Monk Fists were set to 0 PEN and PEN was displaced to Unarmed Talents (to solve foe monk damages issue, search the BPM thread if you're really interested).

Tutotilio's benefit from Unarmed Talents, so has to be set to 0 PEN too.

Other shields benfit from weapon quality instead.

Okay, so if it is a clone specific issue, I think I could add the scaling intresically to the clones. It might work. The scaling only applies to specifically tagged items attacks.

Monastic unarmed isn't really for the duplicates it's mostly for doing decent damage at low levels when your equipment is garbage, but also in some builds not bad to replace weapons with fists entirely. Mostly an abydon's challenge thing because non-summoned weapons are unusable in a lot of fights because they break too quickly, and even if they don't repairing is very expensive, plus fists are actually pretty good most of the game since few enemies are immune to crushing. For a mage I can summon weapons, so not as big a deal as with other classes not to have the talent, but I never understood why say a cipher or priest can get take monastic unarmed but not a chanter or paladin. Another advantage of multiclass builds.

Agree it makes no sense multiclass ciphers can stack more will than single class, though I took advantage of this with my hierophant build. I think the bull's will would be a good cipher addition, also fast runner for monk (or everyone). Personally I'd love to see a lot of the old utility talents that became class specific applied to all classes, like deep pockets (sorta applied in compromise extra pocket), but also monastic unarmed, fast runner and quick switch. I don't think any of these things would change class balance too much.

That would be super, super awesome if you could fix the duplicates scaling on these passive abilities

Random question, any idea why Vela is unscriptable? I don't mean scripting her behavior but I can't script my character to do simple things like heal her if damaged or cast withdraw on her. She doesn't seem to be tagged as an "ally".

[abot]

Vela is meant to be the greatest challenge for the ultimate

[Shai Hulud]

10 hours ago, abot said:

Vela is meant to be the greatest challenge for the ultimate

Yeah I'm aware of that I've done the ultimate too. I watched a lot of your run, really cool build. Did you have your run verified by obsidian and if so how long did it take? I still haven't had a response aside from the initial auto-reply.

But have to say I don't think much would be lost from the challenge if I could, say, script withdraw on ally vs pressing W every 30 seconds. Lose some tedium though. 

I like scripting as much behavior as possible. To me part of the challenge is creating a script that can handle all situations, but POE scripting is pretty limited. Still, I think I could do it if she were just tagged "ally". 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Shai Hulud