Melee Rogue is too weak on PotD Upscale

[Elric Galad]

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

I'll do similar but with these exceptions:

• Finishing Blow : 2x -> 3x per Rest

Since my purpose is to give more Per Rest casts to martial classes in general, my rule would be by default to give 4x Per Rest cast of everything Per Rest. Because 4x Per Rest cast is what casters gain per spell level, it would feel fair.

Sometimes I would make exception to 3x if the ability feels a bit strong (Unbending, as it is) or weak/spammy (Binding Roots as it is, or Hastening Exhortation). Expect +2x Per Rest cast compared to current values, with some exceptions (Unbending and Binding Roots feel quite balanced as they are, so no +2 Per Rest cast).

Finishing Blow does not feel especially powerful (it is hard to get these bonus damages to their maximal without overkilling ; we also had this debate in PoE2) but x4 Finishing Blows feel nice for hard fights, you can even spam it for the default +5Acc / +50% damages. 

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

• Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 1x per Encounter

Every classes need a couple of Per Rest abilities with a lots of casts. In the case of Fearsome Strike, I also need to differentiate it from Withering Strike the most I can, so if one is Per Rest and the other Per Encounter, it's better. (Withering also has a slightly superior DPS)

Again, it isn't strong enough to prevent me from setting it to 4x Per Rest.

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

 

• Riposte: raw damage

Mmm, why ?

There are 3 kinds of "retaliation effects" :

- Item retaliation, which has lowish normal damages. This one could have been better with raw damages (but I won't change items), cause DR is a pain in this case. Fire Godlike is in this category but its scaling damages makes it better.

- Barbaric Retaliation, same but raw. This one is indeed much better because it is raw.

- Riposte which retaliates (with a chance) by a Full Attack. Your usual weapon attacks aren't raw, why Riposte should be raw ? Also Rogue's attacks usually have no issues with DR due to the bonus damages. Also changing weapon attack to raw damages would be technically complicated.

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

 

• Deep wounds: too much 9 raw damage plus MIG bonus... instead fix the INT bug where higher INT means lesser damage. Max 6 raw damage at a certain level (13 could be ok), not 9

INT doesn't mean lesser damages for Deep Wound AFAIK, this is not wounding/wounding shots.

9 raw damages/3s is just 3 damages per second. It is not much given that an endgame Rogue with zeroish recovery will swing for 50ish damages per weapon attack every second. That's not big damages unless you switch targets. But if you want to switch targets, why aren't you playing an AoE damages class to begin with ?

What I mean is that Deep Wound effect wouldn't be so impressive even with 9 raw damages per tick. Adding 9 raw damages on first shot is nice, the added damages after that is meager but that's still added damages. You need to combo it to exploit its potential. But since I intend to buff Rogue possibilities, it kind of feel right. 

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

A paladin lack some CC in my opinion for an example Sacred Immolation should make less damage but cause some affliction also (perhaps blind?).

 

Not all classes should be able to do everything and I don't intend do change that.

However, since I plan to rise the number of cast of Per Rest abilities, at least there should be more charges of Deprive the Unworthy (so even if you can't debuff, you could at lest prevent foes from buffing, take that Thaos !).

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

And yes, Urthal (the fighter with the Redeemer) was difficult to pull down as he heal himself very quickly!

Indeed, that's because of him that I'm pretty sure Unbending works about the same as PoE2, and/or at least enable somewhat infinite Endurance while it lasts. 

18 hours ago, Chaospread said:

I agree with @Boeroer about caster: wizard, priest, druid and cipher are very powerful at high levels, they should be nerfed after 9/12 levels and give them more cast the first 4/5 levels... A level 1 priest or wizard at level 1/2 can only Stealth and saying a prayer (and for a priest should be a good RPG moment by the way ).

Indeed. Casters are only limited by their number of Per Rest ressource which feels somewhat balanced as long as one doesn't rest spam. I won't address rest spamming, since it would change the whole game, and that's not my intention. 

At low level, Spiritshift, Radiance and Arcane Assault save a bit your day.

 

Ahem, @Boeroer, if you have any opinion here (I know you probably don't play much with PoE2 BPM, but that hasn't prevented you from helping it  )

Edited April 23, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't nerf casters just because Rougues are a bit lame on PotD difficulty.

First of all I would give Persistent Distraction's "Distracted" the feature to unlock Sneack Attack (as in Deadfire). Currently it doesn't (in PoE) and tha means Persistent Distraction doesn't unlock Deathblows by itself.

Then I would scale Sneak Attack with level or make it a raw lash (less than 50% though I guess). This would mimic the ability to slide a weapon into the gaps of the enemy's armor when nobody's looking - sneaky. Raw lash would make Sneak Attack a bit less potent in the early game but much better over the course of the game because it's multplicative instead of additive dmg improvement. Would be a great combo with weapon quality, Deathblows and Backstab - and Finishing Blow, too.
However, it would make Deep Wounds less effective compared to additive dmg - because raw dmg doesn't trigger Deep Wounds. So maybe alter Deep Wounds, too so that it gets triggered by pierce/slash/crush/raw dmg. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I wouldn't nerf casters just because Rougues are a bit lame on PotD difficulty.

Of courses not. If anything it would be because they are too strong Compared to other classes. Or too strong when rest spamming (but I will add per rest charges to other classes instead). 

I only intend to nerf about 3 spells that cause other balance issues.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

First of all I would give Persistent Distraction's "Distracted" the feature to unlock Sneack Attack (as in Deadfire). Currently it doesn't (in PoE) and tha means Persistent Distraction doesn't unlock Deathblows by itself.

Could have been great but modfing PoE1 is difficult, so I prefer to limit my intentions to tweaking a couple of numbers.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Then I would scale Sneak Attack with level or make it a raw lash (less than 50% though I guess). This would mimic the ability to slide a weapon into the gaps of the enemy's armor when nobody's looking - sneaky. Raw lash would make Sneak Attack a bit less potent in the early game but much better over the course of the game because it's multplicative instead of additive dmg improvement. Would be a great combo with weapon quality, Deathblows and Backstab - and Finishing Blow, too.

However, it would make Deep Wounds less effective compared to additive dmg - because raw dmg doesn't trigger Deep Wounds. So maybe alter Deep Wounds, too so that it gets triggered by pierce/slash/crush/raw dmg. 

For the reason mentionned above I would rather go with a simple scaling mechanics. 

Your idea wouldn't alter Deep wound though, since it would trigger from the weapon attack itself (not the raw bonus), but Deep Wounds damages don't depend on inflicted damages in PoE1. 

[Elric Galad]

Maybe it's better I start a separate thread about modding.

With the complete list of changes for all classes, so I can explain what are my actual objectives and principles (and limitations, since I don't want to customize as many things as I did in PoE2). 

This will allow me to present the "bigger picture" I intend.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Chaospread]

On 4/23/2023 at 4:01 PM, Elric Galad said:

On 4/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Chaospread said:

I'll do similar but with these exceptions:

• Finishing Blow : 2x -> 3x per Rest

Since my purpose is to give more Per Rest casts to martial classes in general, my rule would be by default to give 4x Per Rest cast of everything Per Rest. Because 4x Per Rest cast is what casters gain per spell level, it would feel fair.

Sometimes I would make exception to 3x if the ability feels a bit strong (Unbending, as it is) or weak/spammy (Binding Roots as it is, or Hastening Exhortation). Expect +2x Per Rest cast compared to current values, with some exceptions (Unbending and Binding Roots feel quite balanced as they are, so no +2 Per Rest cast).

Finishing Blow does not feel especially powerful (it is hard to get these bonus damages to their maximal without overkilling ; we also had this debate in PoE2) but x4 Finishing Blows feel nice for hard fights, you can even spam it for the default +5Acc / +50% damages. 

On 4/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Chaospread said:

• Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 1x per Encounter

Every classes need a couple of Per Rest abilities with a lots of casts. In the case of Fearsome Strike, I also need to differentiate it from Withering Strike the most I can, so if one is Per Rest and the other Per Encounter, it's better. (Withering also has a slightly superior DPS)

Again, it isn't strong enough to prevent me from setting it to 4x Per Rest.

Ok, you have conviced me.

On 4/23/2023 at 4:01 PM, Elric Galad said:

On 4/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Chaospread said:

• Riposte: raw damage

Mmm, why ?

There are 3 kinds of "retaliation effects" :

- Item retaliation, which has lowish normal damages. This one could have been better with raw damages (but I won't change items), cause DR is a pain in this case. Fire Godlike is in this category but its scaling damages makes it better.

- Barbaric Retaliation, same but raw. This one is indeed much better because it is raw.

- Riposte which retaliates (with a chance) by a Full Attack. Your usual weapon attacks aren't raw, why Riposte should be raw ? Also Rogue's attacks usually have no issues with DR due to the bonus damages. Also changing weapon attack to raw damages would be technically complicated.

I'm sorry, my fail. I was thinking about item retalation, which is useless indeed as it is now.

On 4/23/2023 at 4:01 PM, Elric Galad said:

On 4/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Chaospread said:

And yes, Urthal (the fighter with the Redeemer) was difficult to pull down as he heal himself very quickly!

Indeed, that's because of him that I'm pretty sure Unbending works about the same as PoE2, and/or at least enable somewhat infinite Endurance while it lasts. 

I haven't played yet PoE2, someone who played both games can says us in unbending has dimilar effects in PoE1 and 2? Thanks

On 4/23/2023 at 4:01 PM, Elric Galad said:

On 4/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Chaospread said:

I agree with @Boeroer about caster: wizard, priest, druid and cipher are very powerful at high levels, they should be nerfed after 9/12 levels and give them more cast the first 4/5 levels... A level 1 priest or wizard at level 1/2 can only Stealth and saying a prayer (and for a priest should be a good RPG moment by the way ).

Indeed. Casters are only limited by their number of Per Rest ressource which feels somewhat balanced as long as one doesn't rest spam. I won't address rest spamming, since it would change the whole game, and that's not my intention. 

Per rest abilities are no meaning in the way the game is now. There's no prolbme in rest when I want, unless you have to get a particularly achievement. if not, you can rest before any encounter (nearly). In my opinion, or time was a trouble, or during rest you can be attacked, or instead of per rest I'd introduce per AREA use or kind of MANA...

On 4/23/2023 at 4:01 PM, Elric Galad said:

At low level, Spiritshift, Radiance and Arcane Assault save a bit your day.

Spiritshift with high INT is by far the best of these 3 abilities, Arcane Assult has its reason, Holy Radiance it a kind of meh expecially at low level

I'll follow your ideas in the new topics, of course, thanks!

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Chaospread said:

Spiritshift with high INT is by far the best of these 3 abilities, Arcane Assult has its reason, Holy Radiance it a kind of meh expecially at low level

But as soon as you get to level 2, you can have it add +10 Acc to your whole party. Neat

Edited April 24, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:11 AM, Elric Galad said:

but Deep Wounds damages don't depend on inflicted damages in PoE1. 

Right - totally forgot about that. 

[Chaospread]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:35 PM, Elric Galad said:

But as soon as you get to level 2, you can have it add +10 Acc to your whole party. Neat

Ok, then you are talking about Inspiring Radiance, which works also to themself, which makes it good also in solo

[Elric Galad]

9 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Ok, then you are talking about Inspiring Radiance, which works also to themself, which makes it good also in solo

Aggrandizing Radiance is another option in Solo, since it stacks with anything. 

[Boeroer]

DId you know that Inspiring Radiance completely stacks with itself (if you have two or more Priests)? Very funny if you do a 6 Priests run. +60 ACC for the party that early in the game is... potent - even if it doesn't last that long.  

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

DId you know that Inspiring Radiance completely stacks with itself (if you have two or more Priests)? Very funny if you do a 6 Priests run. +60 ACC for the party that early in the game is... potent - even if it doesn't last that long.  

Until you get Salvation of Time... 

[Chaospread]

Better also with a Spelltongue, maybe two (with Helwax Mold) for 2 Priests