Sun and Moon - is this normal?

[Yosharian]

Why does the Keyword mod remove the Ring of Focused Flame accuracy bonus on Dragon's Dowry?  This seems like a really dumb nerf to a weapon that wasn't even all that powerful compared to something like The Red Hand.

This just means I can't use the Keyword mod anymore which is annoying.

Not to mention this is completely undocumented in the mod's description which is really bad form and confusing.

Edited December 7 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

The problem with Dragon's Dowry (and other weapons that carry an elemental keyword but do physical damage): if you attack foes that are immune to fire damage, the game doesn't even evaluate the actual physical damage (in this case pierce) vs. armor but immediately decides that the enemy is immune to your weapon - only because it carries the fire keyword. So the keyword has an advantage (allows for bonues from Ring of Focused Flames for example but also Scion of Flame etc.) but also a disadvantage (enemies are immune to your shots who shouldn't be). And that disadvantage is totally obscured and unintuitive. This couldn't be fixed "properly" with a mod because this behaviour was hard-coded afair. So I guess the modder decided to remove the fire keyword from the Dragon-Dowry attacks alltogether.

Sun & Moon (burn/frost keywords but crush dmg) should have had the same issue. 

I think it's a reasonable solution. Other weapons who have a n elemental lash but do physical damage also don't get the elemental keyword for all their attacks. Dragon's Dowry does incredible damage per hit compared to the Red Hand (which has better dps) - so it still has its uses. For example a Rogue with limited resources for special attacks would get more damage out of his Guile points than he would get from the Red Hand. Best would be to use Dragon's Dowry for limited attack abilities and switch to the Red Hand for auto-attacks.

Too bad this issue couldn't get fixed more elegantly.  

Edited December 9 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

Losing the +10 accuracy from the ring is in no way justified by having the occasional fire immune mob be vulnerable to damage.  I can just switch to a different weapon vs those enemies.  Like this is not a good trade-off at all.

The biggest issue is that the mod doesn't describe this change anywhere in the description.  Don't do that.

[Noqn]

Finally made a fix for this.... https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/769/

Basically, it will...

1. Revert all the changes to Weapon Keywords from Community Patch Keywords 2.0.0
2. Add an Item Mod to "Keyword Weapons" that indicates that it has the Keyword and explains Enemy Immunities.
3. Make enemy keyword immunities visible in the combat tooltip.

IMO vanilla enemy immunity behavior is working correctly, it is perfectly consistent with the Keyword system. The issue is just the lack of clarity in regards to which weapons have keywords and which enemies have immunities.

BEFORE

AFTER

 

Also - Optional Download for alternative Damage Types since that got positive feedback in the thread regardless.

(Weapons that gain a new Damage Type also gain -1 Penetration for balance)

 

 

Edited December 8 by Noqn

[Chaospread]

I think it should not have bonus of the "fire" ring. Only weapon with burn damage should have +10 ACC from the ring. Dragon's Dowry has "only" lash burn damage.
So it is right to remove fire keywords from the arquebus.
But also @Noqn solution is good because at least make things clear (something like "has it fire keywords? So lets give it all the good and all the bad from fire"); the optional additional solution (adding burn damage and decrease PEN by 1) it's even better.

Thus everybody can pick the most pleasant solution for himself/herself
Anyway: what a mess with "elementals" (and not only) keywords

[Boeroer]

20 hours ago, Yosharian said:

 Don't do that.

I didn't do anything - except explain to you what the modder's problem and reasoning was.

"Ah, I see. I don't agree with the decision but thanks for explaining it to me."

You are welcome.

[Boeroer]

18 hours ago, Noqn said:

Finally made a fix for this...

Awesome! 

I really don't know why some mechanics - such as keywords - are obscured in the first place. Deadfire is way better than PoE in that regard, but still not great. 

Edited December 9 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

29 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I didn't do anything - except explain to you what the modder's problem and reasoning was.

"Ah, I see. I don't agree with the decision but thanks for explaining it to me."

You are welcome.

No I meant in general that people shouldn't do that, I didn't mean you specifically 

[Yosharian]

20 hours ago, Chaospread said:

I think it should not have bonus of the "fire" ring. Only weapon with burn damage should have +10 ACC from the ring. Dragon's Dowry has "only" lash burn damage.
So it is right to remove fire keywords from the arquebus

That's fine but the main issue is that the mod did this without documenting it

Document changes like this in the mod description so that players can make an informed decision whether or not they want to install it

[Yosharian]

21 hours ago, Noqn said:

Finally made a fix for this.... https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/769/

Basically, it will...

1. Revert all the changes to Weapon Keywords from Community Patch Keywords 2.0.0
2. Add an Item Mod to "Keyword Weapons" that indicates that it has the Keyword and explains Enemy Immunities.
3. Make enemy keyword immunities visible in the combat tooltip.

IMO vanilla enemy immunity behavior is working correctly, it is perfectly consistent with the Keyword system. The issue is just the lack of clarity in regards to which weapons have keywords and which enemies have immunities.

BEFORE

AFTER

 

Also - Optional Download for alternative Damage Types since that got positive feedback in the thread regardless.

(Weapons that gain a new Damage Type also gain -1 Penetration for balance)

 

 

Well **** dude. You went above and beyond here. Thanks  

[Yosharian]

@Noqn is this fix compatible with the Balance Polishing mod? I think it tweaks something about DD

[Noqn]

15 hours ago, Yosharian said:

@Noqn is this fix compatible with the Balance Polishing mod? I think it tweaks something about DD

Yeah from what I can tell

[Elric Galad]

On 12/8/2024 at 6:57 PM, Noqn said:

Finally made a fix for this.... https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/769/

Basically, it will...

1. Revert all the changes to Weapon Keywords from Community Patch Keywords 2.0.0
2. Add an Item Mod to "Keyword Weapons" that indicates that it has the Keyword and explains Enemy Immunities.
3. Make enemy keyword immunities visible in the combat tooltip.

IMO vanilla enemy immunity behavior is working correctly, it is perfectly consistent with the Keyword system. The issue is just the lack of clarity in regards to which weapons have keywords and which enemies have immunities.

BEFORE

AFTER

 

Also - Optional Download for alternative Damage Types since that got positive feedback in the thread regardless.

(Weapons that gain a new Damage Type also gain -1 Penetration for balance)

 

 

One thing that I can remove from my to do list 

I was like "hey, at some point CP people will do it, but just in case, I'lll keep an eye on it". But I never did anything  

Just to be sure : you can use your mod with CP. Do you have to put it in lower loading priority compared to CP to make it work (which would ensure it properly overrides CP) ?

Edited Sunday at 09:30 PM by Elric Galad

[Noqn]

19 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Do you have to put it in lower loading priority compared to CP to make it work (which would ensure it properly overrides CP) ?

Yep!

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Noqn said:

Yep!

Unless I'm mistaken, it isn't explicit in the mod installation instructions

[Noqn]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Unless I'm mistaken, it isn't explicit in the mod installation instructions

aaaah good point, updated the install instructions