Turn based combat seems dissapointing half-baked bs

[Nikanuur]

I've enjoyed PoE II very much, lovely piece of work. I also love turn based, so it was a great notion to try it out in TB for the second re-run. Man, was I quickly struck by sheer disapointment of how poorly it is concieved due the the overcomplexity of generaly simple approaches. It does have some charms, there can be some interesting combos, but man... I could go on and on about how half of the target / area spells (if not most), several effects and many skills have infuriatingly inconsistent and less-then-forgetful usefulness and timing based on what is going on with the character.

I could go on and on about how many stuns lost half their usefulness for the PC if you don't go in to overcomplex do-not-move-delay-your-turn-oops-the-delay-didn't-match-the-stun, how prone is now good for nothing, how casting AoE ranged spells is often unthinkably imprecise (you never know how it's gonna time itself unless you check for bazzillion of whatnots, thus being unable to predict where the enemies are going to end).

Just one illustration that explains most of the other cases:

1st level spell Interdiction, being the least initiative and casting time-heavy spell takes generally two rounds to be even casted??!! With character DEX 17 who is supposed to be quick as a close tie to your cat on catnip? Probably something to do with the initiative. Sometimes it is casted at the end of the first round, no other reason beyond what - different initiative? No other effects on the character. Right. Thanks but no thanks. W t f.
What's more, half of the time the enemies go first, so the effect is immediately canceled after they attack. Wow, -3 dmg on their part due to -5 Might. Absolutely awsomely useless spell that has been pretty decent during the first levels of the real-time play-through for the rogues to have an attack window for some cool added damage and effectuations.

It seems like nobody thought these things trough. No sensible approach like "the effect ends at the end of the whole round, not the end of the enemy turn".

TB is half-baked sad and disappointing thing

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nikanuur

[thelee]

not gonna defend TB (i think some of its issues are pretty well known and it was a late-cycle quick addition) here, but just wanted to chime on interdiction:

10 hours ago, Nikanuur said:

1st level spell Interdiction, being the least initiative and casting time-heavy spell takes generally two rounds to be even casted??!! With character DEX 17 who is supposed to be quick as a close tie to your cat on catnip? Probably something to do with the initiative. Sometimes it is casted at the end of the first round, no other reason beyond what - different initiative? No other effects on the character. Right. Thanks but no thanks. W t f.
What's more, half of the time the enemies go first, so the effect is immediately canceled after they attack. Wow, -3 dmg on their part due to -5 Might. Absolutely awsomely useless spell that has been pretty decent during the first levels of the real-time play-through for the rogues to have an attack window for some cool added damage and effectuations.

in my mind, daze is not effective because of -5 might (as you find, it will really be small amounts of damage so is only useful as a prolonged effect), but because of -4 PEN and lack of engagement. -4 PEN can occasionally be dramatically life-saving damage reduction (especially against casters), and lack of engagement similarly vital for survival. The rough rounding cutoffs for TB mode probably might make it much harder to take advantage of though. But interdiction does also suffer in RTwP from having such a short duration, but might be enough to flee or cripple a caster. (In TB mode you'd need a heroic amount of intellect and scaling to get interdiction to last more than one round due to that rough rounding cutoff.)

Edited February 22, 2022 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

20 hours ago, Nikanuur said:

TB is half-baked sad and disappointing thing

TB is a mode of play that was added for free by the devs, and there are plenty of people that are quite happy of it. I've read tons of people stating it.

The ruleset is not designed for it so I believe it feels weird and poorly balanced for hard core gamers, yes.

Basically, you have many abilities that are bad in TB (this is true for RTwP, but not to the same extant), so one has to minmax and build for it.

[Nikanuur]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

TB is a mode of play that was added for free by the devs, and there are plenty of people that are quite happy of it. I've read tons of people stating it.

The ruleset is not designed for it so I believe it feels weird and poorly balanced for hard core gamers, yes.

Basically, you have many abilities that are bad in TB (this is true for RTwP, but not to the same extant), so one has to minmax and build for it.

Yep, some time after I wrote my article it occured to me I've got carried away somewhat needlessly. After all, it is a free feature, as you yourself pointed out. Still, it could've been so cool if only made in "at least a bit closer to classical fashion". Sad panda is sad

[Carys]

Turn based is my preferred mode of play, and once you get used to it, it can be powerful, just like RTwP can be.

One of the big issues that players new to it have, when coming from RTwP is Dexterity.  Dex is a very important attribute in RtwP.  In TB, it's much less so.  It's not a dump stat, but you need to be more character role oriented in when you push it high.   Typically, I've found 10 to 12 is fine for casters, and you only really want it high with melee that you want to ensure goes first.  The reason for this is casting time.

When a melee attacks, weapon speed is added to the next round calculations for initiatve.  For casters, the casting time is added /to the current rounds initiative/.  If that pushes it past the last init in the round, then the spell goes off the next round.  (On a side note, the caster often goes back to back in that case, since thier init is set to 0, or sometimes to the next number after the spell resolution.

When it comes to AoE on a fast caster, you have to look at the enemies you want to hit with it.  Are they ranged?  They'll likely stay put, or not move too far.  Are they melee?  Will they go before spell resolution?  Lay the AoE down right in front of your own melee, with your melee in the yellow safe zone.  Targeting AoE is hard when you first start TB, but it becomes easy real soon.

Knockdown is much weaker in TB, that is true.  

As for spell timing, you do know when it will time itself: caster init+spell cast time=resolve number.  (This can be modified by buffs/debuffs, like anything else).  Now, it can be bumped to the next round, but that's often a good thing.  For instance, I've gotten good with Vatnir dropping a freezing pillar in an area where there are either casters or melee I expect to stay put, with it resolving at the start of the next round.  So, at 0, of round 2 it drops and does the first damage pulse.  Then, since Vatnir didn't do anything in round 1, he goes again at 0 or 1, it pulses again, and the cone of cold spell finishes survivors.

TB is not RTwP but slower.  It's not to everyone's taste.  But, if you do like TB games in general, when you get the hang of this form of it, it can be really fun.  

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Nikanuur said:

Yep, some time after I wrote my article it occured to me I've got carried away somewhat needlessly. After all, it is a free feature, as you yourself pointed out. Still, it could've been so cool if only made in "at least a bit closer to classical fashion". Sad panda is sad

I think my main grip is that they didn't go for an Active Time Battle system similar to Final Fantasy X, where everyone acts in sucession but where there isn't a notion of "round" that... well... round up or down all things linked to duration or time taken by actions. Basically a slow action cause to act later.

This kind of system would have allowed much much smoother translation of RTwP ruleset into Turn Based. And I don't believe it is more complicated. Only a few adaptations would have been necessary.

 

But well... people seem usually happy. Some like TB and play TB, and some don't like it or feel that the rules fit better RTwP and play RTwP. I think that there is only few people who absolutely wanted to play TB and felt disappointed by it to the point no mode satisfy them.

[Nikanuur]

1 hour ago, Carys said:

Turn based is my preferred mode of play, and once you get used to it, it can be powerful, just like RTwP can be.

One of the big issues that players new to it have, when coming from RTwP is Dexterity.  Dex is a very important attribute in RtwP.  In TB, it's much less so.  It's not a dump stat, but you need to be more character role oriented in when you push it high.   Typically, I've found 10 to 12 is fine for casters, and you only really want it high with melee that you want to ensure goes first.  The reason for this is casting time.

When a melee attacks, weapon speed is added to the next round calculations for initiatve.  For casters, the casting time is added /to the current rounds initiative/.  If that pushes it past the last init in the round, then the spell goes off the next round.  (On a side note, the caster often goes back to back in that case, since thier init is set to 0, or sometimes to the next number after the spell resolution.

When it comes to AoE on a fast caster, you have to look at the enemies you want to hit with it.  Are they ranged?  They'll likely stay put, or not move too far.  Are they melee?  Will they go before spell resolution?  Lay the AoE down right in front of your own melee, with your melee in the yellow safe zone.  Targeting AoE is hard when you first start TB, but it becomes easy real soon.

Knockdown is much weaker in TB, that is true.  

As for spell timing, you do know when it will time itself: caster init+spell cast time=resolve number.  (This can be modified by buffs/debuffs, like anything else).  Now, it can be bumped to the next round, but that's often a good thing.  For instance, I've gotten good with Vatnir dropping a freezing pillar in an area where there are either casters or melee I expect to stay put, with it resolving at the start of the next round.  So, at 0, of round 2 it drops and does the first damage pulse.  Then, since Vatnir didn't do anything in round 1, he goes again at 0 or 1, it pulses again, and the cone of cold spell finishes survivors.

TB is not RTwP but slower.  It's not to everyone's taste.  But, if you do like TB games in general, when you get the hang of this form of it, it can be really fun.  

I appreciate you taking time to react, and I respect your opinion. However, I don't see myself liking this TB whereas I am fond of TB in general (X-Coms, DoS I+II, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pathfinders, heck even Fallout I+II or Krondor and others). This TB does too many basic things just disregardingly wrong. I suppose, you must be one of those famous, patient, semi-genius minmaxing people or something :3