Maximizing the Dragon Thrashed chant usefulness

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

I remember how cool and powerful the Dragon Thrashed (TDT from now on because Im lazy) was in PoE1. To be fair, it was probably a little TOO good, so Im ok with it being tuned down. But it seems to have gotten nerfed a little too much in the process, partly due to its lack of penetration as I understand it, which stays at a low 7. So, for some stubborn reason, I would like to get it to be powerful no matter the sacrifice. So Im going to throw out a few multiclass options/questions:

-is this considered a proper DoT application, or is each tick of the DoT its own separate hit?

-I recall reading and observing that DoTs have a somewhat odd mechanic where the DoT tick damage is applied on application. Does this mean you can supercharge something like TDT by going Brisk Recitation? (One tick on apply, one after 3 seconds, one more after reapplication) I dont think so, but something to consider maybe.

-due to another thread I was considering a Barbarian with Blood Frenzy. If TDT can crit, and Blood Frenzy applies on crit, and chants get bonus accuracy per power level…can you essentially get a weirdly good proxy DoT on top of your normal one that normally sucks? And getting kills with your passive chant can fuel the Barbarians normal melee offense via bloodlust and blood thirst

-stacking penetration through tenacious, crits, and the passive +1 to fire penetration that a number of classes get.

-was thinking of stacking Fire PL bonuses, but I dont think TDT is actually keyworded as such, might be useless.

-combusting wounds might actually work in a way, each new tick of TDT would trigger it, so you get a DoT on top of your DoT. You could even stack this with Soft Winds (since TDT doesnt stack on itself)

-was wondering if +% lashes from say a Paladin’s eternal devotion or a Wizard with Blightheart would apply on TDT

 

Anyways, Ill stop with my mess of theorycrafting lol, I think I have enough for the time being already. Thanks for reading.

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

-is this considered a proper DoT application, or is each tick of the DoT its own separate hit?

It is a pure DoT effect, only one hit roll at the beginning ;

1 hour ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

-combusting wounds might actually work in a way, each new tick of TDT would trigger it, so you get a DoT on top of your DoT. You could even stack this with Soft Winds (since TDT doesnt stack on itself)

For this reason, I think Combusting Wounds only proc on first DoT apply, not on damage ticks from the DoT. I'm not sure but I think.

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

3 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

It is a pure DoT effect, only one hit roll at the beginning ;

For this reason, I think Combusting Wounds only proc on first DoT apply, not on damage ticks from the DoT. I'm not sure but I think.

Interesting. If this is the case, I wonder if by alternating between Soft Winds and TDT as a troubador, you could proc new “hits” every 3 seconds, which could help trigger blood storm and/or Combusting Wounds? Or maybe some other offensive chant, if the raw damage from Soft Winds doesnt count as a proper crit.

[Constentin Lévine]

After some test, Combusting Wounds apears to work only on damages deals, and DoT are not, they actually are status like an affliction. So the roll for the spell (Dragon Trashed or Soft Wind) doesnt trigger a wound. Anyway, Blood Storm work on any roll, but the effect have his duration adjusted when that is re-applied. Brisk recitation doesnt really matter for Blood Storm.

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

27 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

After some test, Combusting Wounds apears to work only on damages deals, and DoT are not, they actually are status like an affliction. So the roll for the spell (Dragon Trashed or Soft Wind) doesnt trigger a wound. Anyway, Blood Storm work on any roll, but the effect have his duration adjusted when that is re-applied. Brisk recitation doesnt really matter for Blood Storm.

Thank you for testing. The reason I bring up Troubador/Brisk Recitation is because if you theoretically could cancel and remove TDT, you could ‘force’ a reroll and try to get another a crit. In other words, if you jumped between say TDT and a Long Nights Drink, and you could get them to crit, maybe blood storm would proc each time. And because you remove the linger with Brisk, the existing status effect would be removed, so ot wouldnt end up reapplied…it would be a new roll each time. So maybe you could force new rolls every 3 seconds.

Hopefully Im explaining my thought process in an understandable way lol. Unfortunately I dont have a saved game available where I could test myself, so I appreciate the feedback.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Porkchopsandwiches247

[Boeroer]

If you use the invocation "Their Champion" first (making you Energized) and then use Brisk Recitation with The Dragon Thrashed you will generate a new hit roll every 3 secs (the phrases are only 3 secs long and get rerolled every 3 secs instead of every 6 seconds llike without Brisk Recitation). If it crits it will interrupt the victim. Since TDT targets reflex it can be very useful when you want to target the weakest defense of an enemy. Alternatives are Soft Winds or The Long Night's Drink against low fortitude and Stumbling over Words against Will. Stumbling over Words is nice anyways because it also removes any concentration. 

Back to TDT: A Berserker/Troubadour could use Slayer's Claw to become Energized even without the invocation (spares time). Also the +2 PEN will help. Then use "The Shield Cracks" for lowering AR by 2 and there's a virtual 4 PEN gain already. If you have a SC Cipher in the party he could use Driving Echoes on you which would make TDT penetrate almost everything I guess. 

Ring of Focused Flames will add +10 ACC. Blood Frenzy will add raw DoT every 3 secs. But it doesn't stack with itself so it's no biggy. Can also interrupt with the Energized Insp. though. If you use Effort (Great Sword) and enchant it with Hemorrhaging then on "any" crit you do you will also apply sickend or hobbled rolls which themselves might crit (and apply Blood Frenzy again - but still no stacking) interrupting even more and again. Also more chances to apply the DoT from Hylea's Talons (because that gets applied by Hemorrhaging hits/crits as well). Those DoTs from Hylea's Talons also can crit and so on... with enough ACC you can lockdown an entire encounter with interrupts while slowly melting them with DoTs. 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Boeroer

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

8 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

If you use the invocation "Their Champion" first (making you Energized) and then use Brisk Recitation with The Dragon Thrashed you will generate a new hit roll every 3 secs (the phrases are only 3 secs long and get rerolled every 3 secs instead of every 6 seconds llike without Brisk Recitation). If it crits it will interrupt the victim. Since TDT targets reflex it can be very useful when you want to target the weakest defense of an enemy. Alternatives are Soft Winds or The Long Night's Drink against low fortitude and Stumbling over Words against Will. Stumbling over Words is nice anyways because it also removes any concentration. 

Back to TDT: A Berserker/Troubadour could use Slayer's Claw to become Energized even without the invocation (spares time). Also the +2 PEN will help. Then use "The Shield Cracks" for lowering AR by 2 and there's a virtual 4 PEN gain already. If you have a SC Cipher in the party he could use Driving Echoes on you which would make TDT penetrate almost everything I guess. 

Ring of Focused Flames will add +10 ACC. Blood Frenzy will add raw DoT as you said. 

 

So wait, the weird Blood Storm+Dragon Thrashed on Brisk Recitation thing could actually work as intended? Get crits per roll every 3 seconds, trigger another DoT off of it?

Would the Ring of Focused Flame work with it? Im not see TDT keyworded as a fire ability. And itd only work with the Fire portion of the hit Id assume, not the 50% chance to do slash damage?

[Boeroer]

I'm pretty confident that the Ring boosts TDT's ACC by 10 universally, but maybe I will do a quick test to confirm.

And yes, Blood Storm will proc every 3 secs eventually (with a crit only of course). It doesn't stack, but you will at least have new chance to apply it every 3 secs - so even against high defense foes it should get applied eventually (if a crit is possible mathematically).

[Boeroer]

Tested it: Ring doesn't work unfortunately.  

A party member with a flail and an AoE attack such as Clear Out/Clean Sweep would help enormously in order to bring enemies' reflex down. 

[Boeroer]

If you use Effort with Hemorrhaging, Blood Storm and Hylea's Talons and either use Heavens Cacophony or scrolls of Avenging Storm then every crit with TDT has the potential to cause an endless loop of Lightnings.

[NotDumbEnough]

This particular chant is buggy and gets the +12 accuracy from single wielding a one handed weapon. No other chant has this behavior.

[Boeroer]

That's in PoE, not Deadfire. At least I never saw that in my game.
Several chants in PoE got the +12 ACC when using a single handed weapon (The Dragon ThHrashed and Come Sweet Winds for example).

But afaik this behaviour didn't make it to Deadfire.