[MECHANICS] The weird aspects of scaling

[Elric Galad]

This thread is widely based on the data from [MECHANICS] Power level compilation thread  from @thelee, but I aimed to deal with specific cases that diverge from general rules, and possibly discuss about how to correct the most annoying exceptions.

 

Basically, there are 4 kinds of scaling :

A - Scaling from weapon quality (Unarmed Scaling is close enough to belong here, even if it has a couple differences). +1 PEN, +15% additive damages and about +4 Acc per quality level.

B - PL scaling from Weapon Attack Abilities such as Rogue Strikes. 5% multiplicative damages and duration for each PL above Ability Tier.

C - Intrinsic non Weapon Attack Ability Scaling, purely based on Ability Tier. For Each Tier above 1, the ability gets +2 Acc and +0.5 PEN.

D - PL scaling from non Weapon Attack Abilities. 5% multiplicative damages and duration, +1 Acc, +0.25 PEN for each PL above Ability Tier. Also +1 bounce and +1 projectile for each 2 PL above ability Tier.

 

So :

- An Auto attack will get A so it keeps up with enemy defences.

- A Weapon Attack Ability will get A and B so it keeps up with enemy defences and get benefits from PL.

- A non Weapon Attack Ability will get C and D so it keeps up with enemy defences and gets benefits from PL.

 

The A, B, C, D values are balanced so that all abilities scale about the same. The benefits from A+B are roughly equivalent to C+D. (It doesn't mean A is equivalent to C and B to D ; D provides strictly more benefits than C).

All the above would be great design (and for most part is) if not for some exceptions... So here we go.

 

1) Passive Abilities don't benefit from PL

Apart for a couple of specific case (Carnage and Sneak Attack), Passive Abilities don't get scaling from PL as Active Abilities, even for similar effect.

They do get scaling from their Ability Tier. So they get scaling C, but not D, making them subpar especially for Accuracy and PEN.

For example, rooting pain gets +1.5 PEN and +6 Acc for being a Tier IV ability... but nothing more.

=> Note that Balance Polishing Mode address this, giving +1 Acc, +0.25 PEN and +5% multiplicative damages per PL to all class passives. I didn't add +5% multiplicative duration because Passive abilities can be applied repeatedly, so I considered they didn't need it.

 

2) Non-Attack Weapon Abilities get double Scaling

All weapon based abilities are not "attack" as Rogue Strikes are. But all of them benefit from Weapon Scaling. The problem is that their Acc and PEN scales as if they didn't...

Active Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A), intrinsic ability tier scaling (C) and PL scaling (D). Basically, they scale a lot. According to my testing, following abilities are concerned :
- Heart of Fury
- Whirling Strikes (BPM removed Accuracy and PEN component by accident)
- Whispers of the Winds (gasp)
- Swift Flurry

- CP version of Forbidden Fist

- Cleaving Stance

 

Following abilities are NOT concerned :

- Clear Out and Upgrades (they are Weapon attack + an AoE attack, that's why the main target is hit twice...)

- Flagellant Path and Upgrades (they are implemented in their own specific way)

- Furious Call (same as Flagellant Path)
- Heartseeker (also implemented in its own specific way)

 

To give numbers Heart of Fury with a legendary weapon and PL 10 gets :

- +4 PEN, +60% damages, +15 Acc from Legendary

- +3.5 PEN, +16 Acc for being a Tier 8 ability

- +0.5 PEN, +2 Acc, +10% multiplicative damages from PL scaling

So yeah, that's +8 PEN !!!

 

Passive Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A) and intrinsic ability tier scaling (C). They don't get (D) from PL because Passive Abilities don't get benefit from PL... According to my testing, following abilities are concerned :
- Riposte

- Barbaric Retaliation

- Heartbeat Drumming

- Vengeful Defeat

This leads to undocumented and above average PEN and Acc. 

 

 

3) About Unique items (general case, refer below for weapons)

 

All the previous also applies to Unique Items abilities, with following specifities :

- Most abilities from items counts as Tier 1 abilties, so they don't get any benefit from C

- Items use "untyped Power Level", a Power Level that doesn't depend on Class / Multi-Class. All lvl 20 characters have 9 untyped power level. Single Class may have a little edge, but only due to Prestige. Only untyped PL bonus can rise this number (Potion of Elevation, Nature Godlike, etc...)

 

Active abilties from items do get scaling D for PL (sometimes B for Weapon attacks). Basically, they don't scale too bad.

Passive abilties from non weapon items get absolutely no scaling. Their PEN is set in stone, their damages are meh and their Acc is about 10 points lower than active abilities at max level. For example, the PEN of Boltcatchers electricity attacks is always 7.
I think this should be addressed, as for class passive abilities.

 

 

4) About Unique Weapons

 

The funny thing is that unique weapons also get scaled based on weapon quality (scaling A).

 

Passive abilties (such as Frostseeker's Garland Rake) get only scaling A which is decent.

 

Active abilties which are weapon attacks (such as Mowdyr's Bottom Up) get scaling A and B which is... the same as other Weapon Attack abilties.

 

Active abilties which are not weapon attacks (such as Frostseeker's Garland Breath) get both scaling A and D (a bit like abilties from point 2) ). Which is a lot. That's why Thunderous Report deals so many damages with so high Acc and PEN.
This is possibly a bit strong, but since Passive bonuses are often more interesting than Per Rest / Per Encounter abilties for weapons, I think it is mostly fine.

 

 

Don't hesitate to correct me if you spot any inconsistency !

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Error post into loss of editted text. I'm cursed.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

5) Attack Weapon Abilities with side non-weapon attacks don't get Acc / PEN scaling on the side non-weapon attacks

 

This is about Torment Reach and Power Strike, their respective upgrades and maybe some other abiities. Maybe others if one finds.

Main attack get scaling A from Weapon and B for Weapon attack abilities.

Side attacks (Torment Reach and Power Strike cones) only get B.

This makes their Accuracy and PEN a bit subpar than if the cone would have been spell effects.

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so for all passive non weapon item effects that has a roll, I've decided to add +10 accuracy and +2 PEN (when applicable).

This is meant to allow them to keep up with similar effect since they have aboslutely no scaling.

This is about equal to the Accuracy and bonus PEN of a level 1 Ability with endgame scaling (but much less than an average Tier ability with endgame scaling, or lower than a Superb/Legendary weapon bonus). Basically it is the same as the scaling Active effect from non-weapon item abilities get, except no bonus damages and you get it from the start. Usually, it leads to 9 PEN, which isn't specially high on endgame.

It would still help them vs enemy defense.

It isn't possible to implement actual scaling since they are not abilities.

 

 

On 1/9/2022 at 3:31 PM, Elric Galad said:

5) Attack Weapon Abilities with side non-weapon attacks don't get Acc / PEN scaling on the side non-weapon attacks

 

This is about Torment Reach and Power Strike, their respective upgrades and maybe some other abiities. Maybe others if one finds.

Main attack get scaling A from Weapon and B for Weapon attack abilities.

Side attacks (Torment Reach and Power Strike cones) only get B.

This makes their Accuracy and PEN a bit subpar than if the cone would have been spell effects.

Similar solution here, I've added a static bonus based on the ability Tier to the secondary AoE of these abilities. Basically I added :

Tier 3 Torment Reach : +10 Acc and +2 PEN

Tier 5 Raised Torment : +15 Acc and +3 PEN

Tier 7 Power Srike : +15 Acc (raw damages)

Tier 9 Inspired Strike : +20 Acc (raw damages)

(Note that Upgraded abilities get intrisic scaling from their new level and PL scaling from the unupgraded version, the better of the 2 worlds. That's why I gave good bonuses to Raised Torment and Inspired Strike)

These bonuses are close to regular scaling.

I couldn't give them normal scaling since they share the scaling attributes from the main attack (so they already got +5% multiplicative damages and duration).

 

I know I'm a bit obsessive about these weird scaling issues. But I've seen too many Abilities and items wasted in CRPG because they become obsolete due to absence of scaling.

PoE 2 has a very good scaling system. It was simply not systematically applied, which is just a little bit sad !

[Elric Galad]

So,  Arcane Archers :

The Basic Imbued attack works normally (scaling A from weapon and B for PL), with the added benefit of Acc bonus from Arcana.

The secondary spells only get scaling B (+5% multiplicative damages and duration) because they are secondary effects of a weapon attack (as Torment Reach and Power Strike). They don't get Accuracy scaling as spells do, but they do get the Acc bonus from Arcana to compensate. Unless you use Community Patch, they don't get any PEN scaling.

This is basically mostly known stuff, but I think I have a clearer view about how they work now.

Basically the scaling with CP is satisfying but the Arcana bonus to Acc isn't spectacular : it is just a compensation of some missing scaling  (it is good for the main attack though)

 

EDIT : note that Imbue : Missile get proper scaling for number of missiles (+1 per 2 PL beyond 1)

Edited January 25, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:48 PM, Elric Galad said:

2) Non-Attack Weapon Abilities get double Scaling

All weapon based abilities are not "attack" as Rogue Strikes are. But all of them benefit from Weapon Scaling. The problem is that their Acc and PEN scales as if they didn't...

Active Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A), intrinsic ability tier scaling (C) and PL scaling (D). Basically, they scale a lot. According to my testing, following abilities are concerned :
- Heart of Fury
- Whirling Strikes (BPM removed Accuracy and PEN component by accident)
- Whispers of the Winds (gasp)
- Swift Flurry

- CP version of Forbidden Fist

- Cleaving Stance

 

Following abilities are NOT concerned :

- Clear Out and Upgrades (they are Weapon attack + an AoE attack, that's why the main target is hit twice...)

- Flagellant Path and Upgrades (they are implemented in their own specific way)

- Furious Call (same as Flagellant Path)
- Heartseeker (also implemented in its own specific way)

 

To give numbers Heart of Fury with a legendary weapon and PL 10 gets :

- +4 PEN, +60% damages, +15 Acc from Legendary

- +3.5 PEN, +16 Acc for being a Tier 8 ability

- +0.5 PEN, +2 Acc, +10% multiplicative damages from PL scaling

So yeah, that's +8 PEN !!!

 

Passive Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A) and intrinsic ability tier scaling (C). They don't get (D) from PL because Passive Abilities don't get benefit from PL... According to my testing, following abilities are concerned :
- Riposte

- Barbaric Retaliation

- Heartbeat Drumming

- Vengeful Defeat

This leads to undocumented and above average PEN and Acc. 

So, about this part, I ultimately decided... not to do much.

The intrinsic ability tier level scaling can't be changed apart by faking the ability level down to 1, which is not something I want to do.

I don't think these abilities are too broken overall (Whisper of the Wind is going to be nerfed by next BPM version but don't need this specific nerf). So :

 

1) For active abilities, I will just edit them to add a not that will explicitly state their Acc and PEN scale with PL :

- Heart of Fury
- Whirling Strikes
- Whispers of the Winds
- Swift Flurry

- Cleaving Stance

 

2) For CP version of forbidden fist, I won't do anything. It's not a "real" weapon attack, so having unique scaling rules isn't an issue.

 

3) For Riposte, Heartbeat Drumming and Barbaric Retaliations, I will add a not explicitly stating that these abilities get a special +4 Acc / + 12 Acc / +16 Acc and +1 PEN / +3 PEN / + 4 PEN respectively. Since they are on Odd PL, they get an entire PEN bonus, so it's not too ugly. I could have made them scaling to harmonize rules further, but I don't want to overbuff them too much (Riposte is already quite buffed by CP).

 

4) Vengeful Defeat is on an Even PL, so it gets a weird +3.5 PEN. I don't mind adding an Acc / PEN / Damages scaling for each PL beyond 8 as for Active Ability so PEN ends up more rounded sometimes. A note will explictly state it. Vengeful defeat is already high tier so won't scale too much and is situational enough not to be broken by this change. Also it is basically a copy of Heart of Fury, so having the same properties make sense.

 

[Bosmer]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

3) For Riposte, Heartbeat Drumming and Barbaric Retaliations, I will add a not explicitly stating that these abilities get a special +4 Acc / + 12 Acc / +16 Acc and +1 PEN / +3 PEN / + 4 PEN respectively. Since they are on Odd PL, they get an entire PEN bonus, so it's not too ugly. I could have made them scaling to harmonize rules further, but I don't want to overbuff them too much (Riposte is already quite buffed by CP).

If I remember correctly, Riposte is the only full-attack ability I know that has no full-attack malus.. what do you think about this?

[Elric Galad]

52 minutes ago, Bosmer said:

If I remember correctly, Riposte is the only full-attack ability I know that has no full-attack malus.. what do you think about this?

Not much, even if confirmed. I don't intend to cancel or nerf CP buff to Riposte.